Hello all,
Which microphones do you guys use for your speaker's measurements and how can you be sure it is phase linear?
This (ECM8000: phase response? - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com) is an old thread but it looks like there really is no way to measure a microphone's phase response, at least up until a few years ago.
Any thoughts?
Which microphones do you guys use for your speaker's measurements and how can you be sure it is phase linear?
This (ECM8000: phase response? - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com) is an old thread but it looks like there really is no way to measure a microphone's phase response, at least up until a few years ago.
Any thoughts?
Yes, but read the following comment.
The B&K 4133 is likely to have a flat phase response down to 3 Hz or lower, so the low frequency comparison test is kosher. For the upper freq phase test, calculating the phase from the freq response is only valid if you know that the source has a flat phase response, or the source has a known phase response (which means measured with a mic with a known absolute phase response)
It seems like a good point to me. Also, how do you 'match' the 500 Hz area between the two measurement techniques?
Also, the phase response from amplitude is only valid, mathematically, under certain properties of the signal. It is what they talk about when they mention the Hilbert transform.
That whole thread is an interesting read, and it looks like it might be the top of another Pandora's box.. go figure
The B&K 4133 is likely to have a flat phase response down to 3 Hz or lower, so the low frequency comparison test is kosher. For the upper freq phase test, calculating the phase from the freq response is only valid if you know that the source has a flat phase response, or the source has a known phase response (which means measured with a mic with a known absolute phase response)
It seems like a good point to me. Also, how do you 'match' the 500 Hz area between the two measurement techniques?
Also, the phase response from amplitude is only valid, mathematically, under certain properties of the signal. It is what they talk about when they mention the Hilbert transform.
That whole thread is an interesting read, and it looks like it might be the top of another Pandora's box.. go figure
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I'm not worried, the phase angle shown isn't a cause for worries for me.
I can agree to the statements included in that tread from Dennis Sbragion.
But it's good to know my mic has been calibrated to mimic a high performer down low.
I knew that, that's why I got it.
On the top end there are many things that can influence the exact roll off, none of them really worrying me.
I can agree to the statements included in that tread from Dennis Sbragion.
But it's good to know my mic has been calibrated to mimic a high performer down low.
I knew that, that's why I got it.
On the top end there are many things that can influence the exact roll off, none of them really worrying me.
That's cool, wesayso.
Maybe somebody else is worried about it, though.
It seems like they should, if they want to make sure their speakers are phase accurate.
They might go through all the trouble of designing a phase correction filter, only to match their speaker to the phase response of a microphone that they don't know the phase of..
Maybe somebody else is worried about it, though.
It seems like they should, if they want to make sure their speakers are phase accurate.
They might go through all the trouble of designing a phase correction filter, only to match their speaker to the phase response of a microphone that they don't know the phase of..
A 1/4" microphone capsule will pretty much have a minimum-phase response in the whole frequency range of interest, so you can actually get it from the magnitude response alone.
This is not easy to do down low using automated methods, as you would need a magnitude response that goes much lower than 10Hz to actually be able to calculate phase response down to that frequency.
That is why iSEMcon do not use calculation for the lower range and rely on actual comparison instead. It is still minimum-phase though, and even if information is missing to accurately calculate it, you can still manually predict it by interpolating the behavior of the mic down low.
There was a functionality introduced in rephase 1.1.0 that will let you do that:
It was rename to "inverse" in later versions.
I used it to retrieve phase information on my cross-spectrum (Herb) calibrated Dayton mic which was missing phase information.
You simply load the magnitude correction file, hide phase info (if any), inverse it, and then work your way through (minimum-phase) EQs to get it flat, as well as (minimum-phase) filters to model the high pass behavior (which is the critical part).
jmbee also did it and published a detailed description of the process (cannot find the link at the moment, not sure it was on this forum).
It work, and it also let you "rub out" some strange deviations in the correction response that look more like measurement/calibration process artifacts that real capsule behavior.
This is not easy to do down low using automated methods, as you would need a magnitude response that goes much lower than 10Hz to actually be able to calculate phase response down to that frequency.
That is why iSEMcon do not use calculation for the lower range and rely on actual comparison instead. It is still minimum-phase though, and even if information is missing to accurately calculate it, you can still manually predict it by interpolating the behavior of the mic down low.
There was a functionality introduced in rephase 1.1.0 that will let you do that:
It was rename to "inverse" in later versions.
I used it to retrieve phase information on my cross-spectrum (Herb) calibrated Dayton mic which was missing phase information.
You simply load the magnitude correction file, hide phase info (if any), inverse it, and then work your way through (minimum-phase) EQs to get it flat, as well as (minimum-phase) filters to model the high pass behavior (which is the critical part).
jmbee also did it and published a detailed description of the process (cannot find the link at the moment, not sure it was on this forum).
It work, and it also let you "rub out" some strange deviations in the correction response that look more like measurement/calibration process artifacts that real capsule behavior.
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Well if there's one I know on here who was doing just that, from top to bottom in his room at the listening spot... I would be pointing at myself. Which is why I got the best alternative to the real expensive mics and moved on.
How on earth would you get an answer if there isn't anything you can do about it? Worry about the things you can control, like your listening environment. A flat measuring mic isn't going to cause a sudden phase change, however a reflection can do that.
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Here is the correction I used for my mic (select all, copy, and load from clipboard in rephase).
Bypass the measurement to see the actual correction.
Bypass the measurement to see the actual correction.
Code:
rePhase settings
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ORd+6RXadIVGkN368+nZh/M/q0W8fHz28Ud0xtE//j/tMCKNFound an interesting comparison while I was digging those file.
In black you can see the original narrow-band correction file I got from cross-spectrum, with zero phase.
In green is the response with th phase behavior automatically calculated. This was done by DN92 (not an active member here, unfortunately). I don't exactly which methods he used but he tried several and tuned them to get the best result he could.
In red is the response obtained with the method above (not fine tuned, mainly focusing on the high pass behavior here).
In black you can see the original narrow-band correction file I got from cross-spectrum, with zero phase.
In green is the response with th phase behavior automatically calculated. This was done by DN92 (not an active member here, unfortunately). I don't exactly which methods he used but he tried several and tuned them to get the best result he could.
In red is the response obtained with the method above (not fine tuned, mainly focusing on the high pass behavior here).
Attachments
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I posted my comment hoping that somebody would know what to do about it.
I do agree with you on the listening environment considerations, but I hope there's a better way of doing things than just moving on.
@ pos
Thank you for the links and info. I don't have rephase as I'm just now starting to setup for my single driver speaker project.
I plan on correcting it with DSP, and that's why I asked myself the question I submitted here.
I can tell you and other people have put a lot of effort into solving this issue, and I wonder if this is really as good as it gets.
Is there really no way of knowing the phase response of a microphone without the assumptions that it is a minimum phase device for most of the spectrum, and the magnitude interpolation at lower frequencies to calculate the phase (or direct comparison with other microphones, that no matter how expensive and I'm sure great, still have the same problem of not knowing their phase response accurately)?
Thank you for the links and info. I don't have rephase as I'm just now starting to setup for my single driver speaker project.
I plan on correcting it with DSP, and that's why I asked myself the question I submitted here.
I can tell you and other people have put a lot of effort into solving this issue, and I wonder if this is really as good as it gets.
Is there really no way of knowing the phase response of a microphone without the assumptions that it is a minimum phase device for most of the spectrum, and the magnitude interpolation at lower frequencies to calculate the phase (or direct comparison with other microphones, that no matter how expensive and I'm sure great, still have the same problem of not knowing their phase response accurately)?
Get a mic that has phase correction data, like from iSEMcon or do as POS just told you, then move on
.Be sure to measure your complete audio chain too! Through loop back etc. at the sample rates you wish to use.
What are you planning to correct, an anechoic listening environment? The minute phase deviation between 20-20.000 Hz in the mic isn't the biggest hurdle by far. It would be better to invest your time "where and when" you want to adjust phase out in a real room with real speakers.
What kind of speakers do you wish to correct? Will they still have the same IR response if you move up or down or left or right?
Once you did manage to make them perform top notch in that listening spot you'll notice your ears get a completely different picture to deal with. As we are listening with 2 ears on each side of that perfect measurement spot.
Just move that mic 10 cm left or right and run a measurement with both speakers to see what that does
.We will never run out of things to worry about.
Things like, where do I point my microphone... on axis to the speaker? Up a little? Straight forward to point between both speakers?
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I don't disregard it (at least not completely).
But we have to be realistic. Choose your best option and move on. There will be larger things to worry about, as long as your mic is flat FR with an acceptable phase correction in your frequency range of interest.
I have done the linear phase down to DC thing. That didn't work for me. I now have minimum phase trough the pass band of my speakers. But I can't control the monitor speakers that were used to adjust the music by the mixing and/or mastering engineer. They might not be as correct in phase as my own speakers, yet they were used to adjust what I am listening to.
That might be a worse place to be at compared to the microphone. As well as our listening environment. Control what you can, look deep into what you can measure and put trust into the "reverence" you have. That whole thread you linked to had no valid options to offer.
It did have some info though. You seem focussed on possible wrong beings that might still exist. For me, seeing a surgical FR correction clean up my impulse is proof enough that I am close. The thing I have to worry about is when to stop correcting, as phase will only be correct at that exact spot in time and space. And it's not even where my ear is going to be.
But we have to be realistic. Choose your best option and move on. There will be larger things to worry about, as long as your mic is flat FR with an acceptable phase correction in your frequency range of interest.
I have done the linear phase down to DC thing. That didn't work for me. I now have minimum phase trough the pass band of my speakers. But I can't control the monitor speakers that were used to adjust the music by the mixing and/or mastering engineer. They might not be as correct in phase as my own speakers, yet they were used to adjust what I am listening to.
That might be a worse place to be at compared to the microphone. As well as our listening environment. Control what you can, look deep into what you can measure and put trust into the "reverence" you have. That whole thread you linked to had no valid options to offer.
It did have some info though. You seem focussed on possible wrong beings that might still exist. For me, seeing a surgical FR correction clean up my impulse is proof enough that I am close. The thing I have to worry about is when to stop correcting, as phase will only be correct at that exact spot in time and space. And it's not even where my ear is going to be.
Thanks share guidance this subject.
With focus on high pass behavior have a few quistions
.1. When loading your setting from clipboard it set taps to 8192, wouldn't it be better set at say 131072 to get phase curve precision work down to DC component.
2. How is further procedure to create microphone txt correction file correctly that most programs request as correction file for microphone.
I don't remember what taps settings I used when generating the impulse, but it was more than 8192 as you can guess. Don't remember why this particular file is set to 8192.
Next step is to load the impulse in HOLM or REW and export the response curve to use as a correction file.
I should really include a "correction response" export functionality in the file menu...
Next step is to load the impulse in HOLM or REW and export the response curve to use as a correction file.
I should really include a "correction response" export functionality in the file menu...
sax512,
Could be wrong but think makes sense for high pass behavior try investigate numbers your chain perform and ensure all chain devices response is taken into count, then make a sealed woofer box and tune it to a known roll off with tools as real world impedance plus T/S parameter measurements and finally measure that known roll off very nearfield, any deviation that show up could be corrected with pos method.
Could be wrong but think makes sense for high pass behavior try investigate numbers your chain perform and ensure all chain devices response is taken into count, then make a sealed woofer box and tune it to a known roll off with tools as real world impedance plus T/S parameter measurements and finally measure that known roll off very nearfield, any deviation that show up could be corrected with pos method.
In case it wasn't mentioned, or I overlooked it, ISECmon does offer a measurement mic that specifies its phase response and distortion limit: http://www.isemcon.com/datasheets/EMX7150-US-r04.pdf
Measurement microphones are used when correcting speakers through DSP filters.
However, it seems like the phase response of measurement microphones might not be as reliable as their amplitude response.
The state of the art of phase response measurement for these microphones is, for what I understand, as follows:
From a certain frequency up, the phase is calculated from its amplitude response. This can be done under the assumption that the microphone is a minimum phase device in that range.
For lower frequencies, where the calculation above cannot be performed due to amplitude response roll off, there are two methods:
a. Interpolation of the amplitude response, so that the calculation can be applied
b. Comparison to an industry standard measurement microphone, assuming its phase response is the right one.
Is there a more reliable way that doesn't rely on assumptions and calculations, but rather direct measurements?
However, it seems like the phase response of measurement microphones might not be as reliable as their amplitude response.
The state of the art of phase response measurement for these microphones is, for what I understand, as follows:
From a certain frequency up, the phase is calculated from its amplitude response. This can be done under the assumption that the microphone is a minimum phase device in that range.
For lower frequencies, where the calculation above cannot be performed due to amplitude response roll off, there are two methods:
a. Interpolation of the amplitude response, so that the calculation can be applied
b. Comparison to an industry standard measurement microphone, assuming its phase response is the right one.
Is there a more reliable way that doesn't rely on assumptions and calculations, but rather direct measurements?
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