FE166ES-R/ Bottlehead/ Arpeggios
I own a pair of FE166ES-R, Bottlehead S.E.X. amp w/ iron supplement and C4S upgrade, Marchand XM1 crossover, and powered subs. I've been using the crossover and sub with a pair of CHR70 folded half towers which sound very nice! So nice that I barely listen to the fostex/bottlehead combo.
I would like to get rid of the Fostex BLHs and try the Arpeggios. This would allow me to have a nice A-B setup reminiscent of my old studio days.
I've studied Mr Morgan's great article and arrived at a volume of 17.32 L and Fe of 83.63hz.
I'm looking for some advice concerning the zobel and output impedance from the experts out there. It seems like i am on the right track?
Thanks in advance.
I own a pair of FE166ES-R, Bottlehead S.E.X. amp w/ iron supplement and C4S upgrade, Marchand XM1 crossover, and powered subs. I've been using the crossover and sub with a pair of CHR70 folded half towers which sound very nice! So nice that I barely listen to the fostex/bottlehead combo.
I would like to get rid of the Fostex BLHs and try the Arpeggios. This would allow me to have a nice A-B setup reminiscent of my old studio days.
I've studied Mr Morgan's great article and arrived at a volume of 17.32 L and Fe of 83.63hz.
I'm looking for some advice concerning the zobel and output impedance from the experts out there. It seems like i am on the right track?
Thanks in advance.
This thread seems to have died which is a pity as it would be nice to know if anyone has actually built these speakers and their subsequent listening experience. I have just built a pair of WAD 300B amps but they are not powerful enough to drive my Wilmsloe Audio TL12 speakers, so I thought I would build these. The Fostex FE166 are no longer made but the FF165WD seems to have a very similar set of parameters. But I would greatly welcome some expert advice on this swap and then I can, perhaps, resurrect this interesting speaker design.
Any comments would be much appreciated.
Cheers Malcolm
Any comments would be much appreciated.
Cheers Malcolm
What Allen said.
I had some comments when Malcolm firdt did these.
The FE166 (any FExx6) really wants to be in a horn. If you want any bass anyway.
You would be better served, if you want to do a reflex box, to look at other drivers. The Fostex FF165wk, Mark Audio A10.3/p, CHN-110, Alpair 11ms, i am sure that suitable Tandbands and others are out there as well.
dave
I had some comments when Malcolm firdt did these.
The FE166 (any FExx6) really wants to be in a horn. If you want any bass anyway.
You would be better served, if you want to do a reflex box, to look at other drivers. The Fostex FF165wk, Mark Audio A10.3/p, CHN-110, Alpair 11ms, i am sure that suitable Tandbands and others are out there as well.
dave
Hello Dave
sorry I meant the Fostex FF165WK. Any reason why I shouldn't just fit them into Mr Jones' original design ?
Having read around a bit I see that you recommend the SEAS FA22 and a rather nice six sided cabinet. I am a competent woodworker so an interesting cabinet is of interest !
Btw my oscilloscope has died ( it is a Phillips and probably well over 30 years old ). So I need a new one; any recommendation about what to get ? My requirements are basic so a budget of £300-£350 is what I had in mind, but less would be good
Malcolm
sorry I meant the Fostex FF165WK. Any reason why I shouldn't just fit them into Mr Jones' original design ?
Having read around a bit I see that you recommend the SEAS FA22 and a rather nice six sided cabinet. I am a competent woodworker so an interesting cabinet is of interest !
Btw my oscilloscope has died ( it is a Phillips and probably well over 30 years old ). So I need a new one; any recommendation about what to get ? My requirements are basic so a budget of £300-£350 is what I had in mind, but less would be good
Malcolm
FF165 can be used in some horns designed for FE166 (ie Victor, FHXL), but vented boxes will be quite different.
I haven’t done as much work on FF165 as others, i owe the forum a CGR (the smaller one will be free for diy use), the official paid planset only has a trapezoid, a twin trapezoid, the Compact Floorstander and a centre.
The small CGR would be a morphing of the centre into a Classic Golden Ratio shape so VERY sililar performance.
https://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/P10free/Fonken165-smCentre-130813.pdf
I do like the SEAS FA22, i tend to think it shoud go into a sealed box… which can be made almost any shape. I prefer the MA Alpairs, and if you are a woodworker and want. challenge, the full on trapezoidal miniOnkens are certainly that.
This Alpair 12p trapezoid is the same size as the large FF165wk Fonken165TT (sitting upside down on a protoType woofT. I tend to prefer the Alpair, but the 2 drivers are both quite good, close when one considers the balance of the compromises made, the FF165wk being about a dB more sensitive.
dave
dave
I haven’t done as much work on FF165 as others, i owe the forum a CGR (the smaller one will be free for diy use), the official paid planset only has a trapezoid, a twin trapezoid, the Compact Floorstander and a centre.
The small CGR would be a morphing of the centre into a Classic Golden Ratio shape so VERY sililar performance.
https://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/P10free/Fonken165-smCentre-130813.pdf
I do like the SEAS FA22, i tend to think it shoud go into a sealed box… which can be made almost any shape. I prefer the MA Alpairs, and if you are a woodworker and want. challenge, the full on trapezoidal miniOnkens are certainly that.
This Alpair 12p trapezoid is the same size as the large FF165wk Fonken165TT (sitting upside down on a protoType woofT. I tend to prefer the Alpair, but the 2 drivers are both quite good, close when one considers the balance of the compromises made, the FF165wk being about a dB more sensitive.
dave
dave
Thanks ( I think ). I didn't really understand your reply. I take it the design for the CGR ( is that the shape of the box? I will have to swot up on topology ) is commercially protected?
The centre speaker design you posted has an internal volume of about 14 litres which is a bit less than the 16 litres I calculated for the FF165WK.
The centre speaker design you posted has an internal volume of about 14 litres which is a bit less than the 16 litres I calculated for the FF165WK.
:^)
A Classic Golden Ratio box is one with dimensions really close to 1.618:1:(1/1.618), 1.618 being th efirst digits of the Golden Ratio.
All of the miniOnken designs use an alignment developed by us and typically a driver will have boxes doen for trapezoidal (8 sided in the end), the rectangular full-on miniOnkens with the slot vents down the side as in a traditional Onken, the CGR, often a centre, and if the box is large enuff, a Compact FloorStander (CFS), if small enuff a millSize box.and often other shapes to meet the needs of users.
The CGR (small one in the case of FF165) is typically free for use, the cente if the driver is also used in a Frugel-Horn. Full plansets are typically $25 USD.
The small box is 13 litres, the large one 17 litres. The larger one is the optimim size for the miniOnken alignment, goes a bit deeper with a less contrained bottom end. It wuld be easy enuff to take, for instance Dr. Scott’s Woden box for A10.3/p and adjust the vent (and mounting details).
http://wodendesign.com/downloads/simpleReflex-103-10p-plan-100214.pdf
The trapezoid is hardest to build, the rectangular one next, the CGR/CFS/centre the easiest. The effort to build the harder boxes does bring sonic benefits — a lower diffraction signature, making it easie rfor the box to “disappear”. Th emost popular drivers tend to have the larger plansets (the Alpair 10 family planset is over 50 pages now).
planet10-hifi miniOnken Plan-Set Subscriptions
dave
A Classic Golden Ratio box is one with dimensions really close to 1.618:1:(1/1.618), 1.618 being th efirst digits of the Golden Ratio.
All of the miniOnken designs use an alignment developed by us and typically a driver will have boxes doen for trapezoidal (8 sided in the end), the rectangular full-on miniOnkens with the slot vents down the side as in a traditional Onken, the CGR, often a centre, and if the box is large enuff, a Compact FloorStander (CFS), if small enuff a millSize box.and often other shapes to meet the needs of users.
The CGR (small one in the case of FF165) is typically free for use, the cente if the driver is also used in a Frugel-Horn. Full plansets are typically $25 USD.
The small box is 13 litres, the large one 17 litres. The larger one is the optimim size for the miniOnken alignment, goes a bit deeper with a less contrained bottom end. It wuld be easy enuff to take, for instance Dr. Scott’s Woden box for A10.3/p and adjust the vent (and mounting details).
http://wodendesign.com/downloads/simpleReflex-103-10p-plan-100214.pdf
The trapezoid is hardest to build, the rectangular one next, the CGR/CFS/centre the easiest. The effort to build the harder boxes does bring sonic benefits — a lower diffraction signature, making it easie rfor the box to “disappear”. Th emost popular drivers tend to have the larger plansets (the Alpair 10 family planset is over 50 pages now).
planet10-hifi miniOnken Plan-Set Subscriptions
dave
Thanks Dave
can I conclude that either the FF165WK or SEAS320 would be a good choice for your trapezoid box? And both are within my budget. I have no experience of either driver so am happy to accept advice from those who have.
Alpair drivers don't seem to be readily available in the UK ( and since Brexit it is likely there would be heavy import expenses if I bought from the EU ).
Having decided which drivers to go for how do I actually purchase your plans ?
As it is a attractive design I would build them from a nice hardwood, haven't decided which. I have a good stock of pear but perhaps that lacks enough figure. Probably settle for olive as I have a fair amount of that.
I don't want large speakers as our living room is already dominated by the TL12s.
Thanks Malcolm
can I conclude that either the FF165WK or SEAS320 would be a good choice for your trapezoid box? And both are within my budget. I have no experience of either driver so am happy to accept advice from those who have.
Alpair drivers don't seem to be readily available in the UK ( and since Brexit it is likely there would be heavy import expenses if I bought from the EU ).
Having decided which drivers to go for how do I actually purchase your plans ?
As it is a attractive design I would build them from a nice hardwood, haven't decided which. I have a good stock of pear but perhaps that lacks enough figure. Probably settle for olive as I have a fair amount of that.
I don't want large speakers as our living room is already dominated by the TL12s.
Thanks Malcolm
Just talked to the Arpeggio designer, Morgan Jones. His take:
Good news for your Arpeggio enquirer. I looked up the Thiele-Small parameters for the FE166NV and expected to need to reduce cabinet volume because of the reduced VAS. However, the BL factor has also fallen, and it turns out that the two cancel one another out and the required volume is exactly the same as before. He'll have to experiment to get the Zobel network right, but other than that, the FE166NV (non-vintage?) is a drop-in replacement and should work just fine.
Jan
Good news for your Arpeggio enquirer. I looked up the Thiele-Small parameters for the FE166NV and expected to need to reduce cabinet volume because of the reduced VAS. However, the BL factor has also fallen, and it turns out that the two cancel one another out and the required volume is exactly the same as before. He'll have to experiment to get the Zobel network right, but other than that, the FE166NV (non-vintage?) is a drop-in replacement and should work just fine.
Jan
SEAS FA22? I like it in a sealed bo.
Other than Japan, probably the best stocked distribution outside of Japan is in Kent.
Markaudio | KJF Audio
dave
Not me, but assuming the published [or someone's measured] impedance is ~typical, then: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/54349-zobel-calcs-crazy.html#post607076
Thank you very much Jan for taking the trouble to research the choice of Fostex drive units. And thank you to Mr Jones ( whose Valve Amplifiers book I have just finished reading - quite a challenge, but extremely helpful ), for doing the calculations. I have emailed Wilmslow Audio ( the only UK supplier of Fostex I can find ) to see if they have them in stock.
And thank you Dave for the pointer to Markaudio who I didn't find in my web search. An interesting site. So plenty of choices if I choose the trapezoidal cabinets. I still can't work out how to purchase the plans. Btw do the vents have to be on the front side panels? I don't think they are aesthetically pleasing - sorry!
Again many thanks for all your help, Malcolm
And thank you Dave for the pointer to Markaudio who I didn't find in my web search. An interesting site. So plenty of choices if I choose the trapezoidal cabinets. I still can't work out how to purchase the plans. Btw do the vents have to be on the front side panels? I don't think they are aesthetically pleasing - sorry!
Again many thanks for all your help, Malcolm