Is this all I need for the DCX2496 ?

[Will]

I want to create probably my last speaker project at which after this I just want to enjoy music more than building speakers in pursuit of audio nirvana; hence the quality must be astounding without having to pay too much.

This is what I have in mind. Basically it's concept is just based on the Orion Open Baffle but :

Tweeter : Uses NeoPDR8 which seem to have low enough Fs so that I can x-over in the 1.4Khz region. Furthermore this is an open backed tweeter which sticks to the open baffle theme closely instead of using conventional tweeter. I'm planning to drive this section with a Darling Tube Amp.

Mid : Currently I have a pair of modified Coral Flat8 which has been inserted with phase plugs and treated cone surface. Efficiency is on the 95dB side which is a plus point for the amp. I'm planning to drive this section with a Darling Tube Amp. X-over in the 150Hz to 1.4Khz


Bass : H-frame Dipole config just like the orion config. But was thinking of getting some 12" car sub woofer which seems to be robust and cost very reasonably. Planning to drive this section with 4 pcs of NIGC.


So if I we're to knock up an open baffle cabinet (just like dear orion), mount the drivers, what else do I need :

DCX2496 + the ECM8000 microphone (I do not have separate RTA for speaker measurement purposes)

What are the exact capabilities of this Behringer combo ? Will I be able to automatically phase align the drivers and also automatically eq the driver response for cater for open baffle deficiencies ?

Or do I also need the DEQ2496 in series with the DCX2496 inorder to perform the latter ?


thanks.

 

[leadbelly]

Well, IMHO, that sounds horrible. The Neo8 is so lacking on top that some people use it as a mid. So you are using 3 drivers to get to 15kHz. Also, to spend the bucks on 2 Neo8's and 2 Corals only to buy car subs is way off IMHO.

 

[Will]

The Neo8 is so lacking on top that some people use it as a mid.

Thanks for the info. I didn't realize it was that badly implemented. In that case what other ribbon tweeter do you recommend (that can be crossed at the 1.4 Khz region and still retaining good top end without costing a bomb) ?

So you are using 3 drivers to get to 15kHz. Also, to spend the bucks on 2 Neo8's and 2 Corals only to buy car subs is way off IMHO.

I'll be getting 4 pcs of 12" car sub for the bass. Way off ? At least they can shift a generous amount of air...


Actually my bigger question remains : Do I need to get the DEQ and DCX together inorder to achieve auto room/driver EQ and auto phase alignment/active crossover ? Or can the DCX2496 alone handle the requirements ? I know for sure the DEQX handles my exact requirement (all in one package) but that price is way off my budget.

regards.

 

[leadbelly]

Thanks for the info. I didn't realize it was that badly implemented.

Well, I can't say that it was badly implemented. Just that you are going to have a tough time if you progress along that route.

In that case what other ribbon tweeter do you recommend (that can be crossed at the 1.4 Khz region and still retaining good top end without costing a bomb) ?

I don't see why you insist at crossing at 1.4kHz. Why did you bother to put a phase plug on the Coral just to crossover so it will have no effect? I would consider moving the crossover point higher and looking at the Aurum Cantus or Fountek ribbon tweeters. They start under $100.

I'll be getting 4 pcs of 12" car sub for the bass. Way off ? At least they can shift a generous amount of air...

True, but the $$$ for 4 pcs of car subs is enough for 2 pcs of HT sub drivers. You're into tubes, if you bought 2 high efficiency drivers you would have more options in rearranging your setup in the future.

Actually my bigger question remains : Do I need to get the DEQ and DCX together inorder to achieve auto room/driver EQ and auto phase alignment/active crossover ? Or can the DCX2496 alone handle the requirements ? I know for sure the DEQX handles my exact requirement (all in one package) but that price is way off my budget.

Sorry, I have no idea, I did not even notice you were posting in the Digital forum, I thought it was in the Loudspeaker forum.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

Hi Will

My suggestions for a reference speaker would be something like an Aurum Cantus G1 ribbon, paired with a PHL or ATC super dome midrange and finally something like a 15" JBL in an Stig 'almighty sub' style enclosure or a 15" ATC SB100 short voice coil version.

Properly implemented you'll have a contenter for a world beater alright. I'm using a similar design but sortof of a slimfast verions using scanspeak R2904 ring radiators, ATC super domes and 9" ATC short coils.

 

[DougL]

What are the exact capabilities of this Behringer combo ? Will I be able to automatically phase align the drivers and also automatically eq the driver response for cater for open baffle deficiencies ?

The DCX2496 + ECM8000 is designed to do auto time align.
I have never gotten it to work. I time align with a ruler, and then input it to the DCX.

The DCX will not auto eq, to the best of my knowledge.
However, it has the capability to do satisfactory parametric filtering that has been very sufficient to EQ my OB speakers.

By the way, I have seen the BG NEO3 PDR xo @ 1.8k in at least one published design.

I have a NEO3, a Seas MP14RCY and 2 RS270 on a 48' by 18" flat baffle powered by a DCX2496 and 2 Teac A-700 3 channel "mono-block" power amps. It shows promise

HTH,

Doug

 

[Will]

The DCX will not auto eq, to the best of my knowledge.
However, it has the capability to do satisfactory parametric filtering that has been very sufficient to EQ my OB speakers.

Do you adjust the parametric filtering by ears or with a measuring equipment? If it's the latter then I might run into problems as I do not have that. That's why I was hoping the DCX could do it. Otherwise I might have to consider the DBX pro instead. I got feedback that it retails for $1299. That's a lot of money compared to the DCX. What do you think ?

By the way, I have seen the BG NEO3 PDR xo @ 1.8k in at least one published design.

I have a NEO3, a Seas MP14RCY and 2 RS270 on a 48' by 18" flat baffle powered by a DCX2496 and 2 Teac A-700 3 channel "mono-block" power amps. It shows promise

Great! I can get the NEO3 and partner with my Corals, cross over sufficiently low at 1.8Khz and place them as close as possible for best integration.




ShinOBIWAN, I plan to have all the drivers in open baffle. I'm done with boxed or enclosed ones. I am sold the moment I heard one of my friend's Fullrange Corals in a simple OB running off Darling Tube Amp. Hency my quest now is to build upon that strength which is OB, active XO, driver and room EQ for flat response.




BTW the phase plug in the Corals was done much earlier when I was still exploring the wonders of full range and x-overless. It is not a wonder anymore (no pun intended) as I wanted a speaker system that plays well into all types of music and not selected ones. Fullrange did not pass that test. Now I'm back to multi driver.

 

[AndrewT]

Hi,
My thought having listened to the dcx2496 for a couple of months is that it is an excellent development tool.
It is so easy to play with settings, call back previous settings, dial in equalisations and do all this while listening to the music. The long balanced leads allow you to keep DCX on your lap as you listen.
One big down side is the lack of processing power for 6 channels. This is easily solved if you develop one end of the frequency range first, say the crossover frequency and equalisation for the treble unit then build your discrete PCB (or hard wired) for the treble and remove that frequency range from the DCX memory. You could just as easily do the bass end first, it achieves the same end, making more processing power available for the fine trimming of the active tri-amped setup.

Although others disagree with me, the quality of DCXs sound output is lacking when combined with higher quality ancilliaries. I have only listened to mine with analogue inputs. There is another thread running on improving DCX analogue outputs by removing the 4 opamps (times 6) in the output stage. This may overcome my reservation but I have not gone that route yet.

I would suggest you use DCX as a tool to help balance out your final system and then reproduce the crossover and equalisation in either discrete or quality opamp PCBs, probably located inside each dedicated monoblock.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

Although others disagree with me, the quality of DCXs sound output is lacking when combined with higher quality ancilliaries. I have only listened to mine with analogue inputs. There is another thread running on improving DCX analogue outputs by removing the 4 opamps (times 6) in the output stage. This may overcome my reservation but I have not gone that route yet.

I agree entirely Andrew. In the 'How to for a PCXO' thread over inthe loudspeaker forum, I've said it many times.
I too bought one and ran it via AES/ABU balanced digital input from an RME card. I compared it to a PC XO setup using FIR filters and sold the DCX only two weeks from taking reciept - hardly an endorsement.

Its cheap for a reason and it has nothing to do with value if your wanting the very best sound.

 

[Will]

AndrewT, Yeah I tend to agree (although I haven't heard the DCX yet) it is a development tool rather than an audiophile tool from what I have gathered over this and other forums. Sigh...

I agree entirely Andrew. In the 'How to for a PCXO' thread over inthe loudspeaker forum, I've said it many times.
I too bought one and ran it via AES/ABU balanced digital input from an RME card. I compared it to a PC XO setup using FIR filters and sold the DCX only two weeks from taking reciept - hardly an endorsement.

Its cheap for a reason and it has nothing to do with value if your wanting the very best sound.

I guess that's where the DEQX comes in at a whooping $3.6K to solve all this dilemma ?

 

[AndrewT]

Hi Will,

it is very cheap and it will save you an awful lot of time.

Without it you may give up modifying your active/passive crossover because of the work involved in each change and the apparent complexity of interacting components muddying the conclusions, if you can see/hear any.

At the end it becomes available for re-sale or used on your next project or modified to bring it up to a suitable quality for your ears.

Buy one and try it out.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

I guess that's where the DEQX comes in at a whooping $3.6K to solve all this dilemma ? [/B]

Only if you feel the rest of your system justifies it. There's other routes to take that offer far better quality than DCX though. Its up to you to reseach and identify suitable solutions.

If like you've said you really do want a 'last' system then DCX won't fit the bill but you could buy one then prototype with it and build up some analogue active XO/EQ PCB's with high quality op-amps, resistors and capacitors.

There's also the PC XO method with FIR filters which may or may not be suitable, I've had plenty of troubles with that route and its not something I'd recommend unless you like experimenting for months on end. I've had some small distortion troubles that I'm pretty sure aren't limited to the filtering but to the PC and sound interface. It can be rewarding but at the same time, be prepared for a fair amount of work to get the very best from it. That said, even on a bad day my PC XO setup wipes the floor with the DCX.

 

[Will]

Hi Will,

it is very cheap and it will save you an awful lot of time.

Without it you may give up modifying your active/passive crossover because of the work involved in each change and the apparent complexity of interacting components muddying the conclusions, if you can see/hear any.

At the end it becomes available for re-sale or used on your next project or modified to bring it up to a suitable quality for your ears.

Buy one and try it out.

Thanks for the encouragement. OTOH do you have any experience with the driverack 260? There is a forrumer (I can't remember) who is using it with good success but it seems nobody ever mention driverack. How's it for an audiophile tool ? To be honest I'm getting to a point where I just wanna enjoy maximum sound quality without having to tweak electronics massively (like changing the SMT opamps in the DCX and an awful lot more of upgrades). I'm tired...

 

[DougL]

Do you adjust the parametric filtering by ears or with a measuring equipment? If it's the latter then I might run into problems as I do not have that. That's why I was hoping the DCX could do it. Otherwise I might have to consider the DBX pro instead. I got feedback that it retails for $1299. That's a lot of money compared to the DCX. What do you think ?

I understand that the Behringer DEQ2496 will auto-eq and has more processor power than the DCX2496. With both units, you have a lot of capability for about $600.

I have been tuning using published response graphs, theory and listening to date. I have a copy of SoundEasy, a Mic and a UB802 mixer. I am going to start measuring my work.

I must be less discriminating than some. I have found the DCX to be very neutral. Also, I have never had to apply more than 4 filters, so processing power has not really been an issue for me.
YMMV.

Doug

 

[Will]

I understand that the Behringer DEQ2496 will auto-eq and has more processor power than the DCX2496. With both units, you have a lot of capability for about $600.

I have been tuning using published response graphs, theory and listening to date. I have a copy of SoundEasy, a Mic and a UB802 mixer. I am going to start measuring my work.

I must be less discriminating than some. I have found the DCX to be very neutral. Also, I have never had to apply more than 4 filters, so processing power has not really been an issue for me.
YMMV.

Doug

With the setup on open baffle you mentioned earlier, do you get the transparency like no other boxed speaker does ? What about the tonality of the overall picture ? Do you get a feeling of clinical treble or was it just right ?

 

[DougL]

Here is the thread I started for my project.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47592&highlight=

I showed the prototypes @ DiyChicago and they were very well received. One comment was "crazy good"

With the setup on open baffle you mentioned earlier, do you get the transparency like no other boxed speaker does ? What about the tonality of the overall picture ? Do you get a feeling of clinical treble or was it just right ?

Open baffle speakers do sound "open" and these are no exception.
With the DCX, I can change the tonality in a couple of minutes.
The tweeters are very musical, and sound a bit like electrostatic tweeters.
Again YMMV

Doug

 

[okayfine]

I would suggest you use DCX as a tool to help balance out your final system and then reproduce the crossover and equalisation in either discrete or quality opamp PCBs, probably located inside each dedicated monoblock.

Andrew, can I find an example of something like this? I tried to search the forum but couldn't find anything. Thanks.

 

[AndrewT]

can I find an example of something like this? I tried to search the forum but couldn't find anything.

There have been a few Group buys for filter/equalisation PCBs in the recent past. All are now closed.
It might be worth pulling up those threads and asking if there are any spares available.
These were very well documented and the PDFs are available on selecting suitable component values and have all the design calculations for the various equalisations that the circuits can produce.

There is also a current thread on a filtered chipamp and the starter has just posted an OK on the result. Again, ask & ye shall obtain the info.