...and they always will be. The CD63 can be made to be AMAZING in terms of detail and accuracy but will always just slightly tend towards the analytical rather than fuzzy and cosy. I am very familiar with both at many level of tune.
Simon
ps - Ben, I doubt the resistance tolerance is the reason for changes in sound with those resistors. Just because they're specified in that way doesn't mean it correlates with the mechanism for the perceived improvements. I'm not even going to guess what the mechanism is and nor am I going to call placebo effect. I love using nice parts, it really seems to work!
Thank you Simon..and i thought that i was the only one with some complains about the sound.
Anyway project is easy to follow and i will try to do my best without spending a fortune.
Hi to all,
Half way there and things did getting better with more analog result and better control over low frequencies.I also add seperate voltage regulators LM340AT-5...see pictures..low level information increased but not as much as i want too.Any suggestions?I have to put some more 0.1% vishay resistors in critical places?because i have them on hand anyway.Only complain about the board is that is so fragile and tracks come off easily.
Anyway project is easy to follow and i will try to do my best without spending a fortune.
Hi to all,
Half way there and things did getting better with more analog result and better control over low frequencies.I also add seperate voltage regulators LM340AT-5...see pictures..low level information increased but not as much as i want too.Any suggestions?I have to put some more 0.1% vishay resistors in critical places?because i have them on hand anyway.Only complain about the board is that is so fragile and tracks come off easily.
Attachments
charas -
One of the most surprising mods, regarding improvement, I did on my CD63 KI player was in the HF-amp.
I replaced C505 with a low tolerance Polystyrene capacitor (Silver Mica should be good too) and replaced R509 with a 0.1% Vishay resistor.
It increased the level of detail, especially in the high end. Drum cymbals become clearer and more natural.
One of the most surprising mods, regarding improvement, I did on my CD63 KI player was in the HF-amp.
I replaced C505 with a low tolerance Polystyrene capacitor (Silver Mica should be good too) and replaced R509 with a 0.1% Vishay resistor.
It increased the level of detail, especially in the high end. Drum cymbals become clearer and more natural.
For starters, I'd say consider doing the following in this order:
- Try to eliminate those long leads to your output stage smoothing caps, or at least get them shorter and of equal length. Have a look at the Mundorf AG / Fidelity Audio SI caps, which are compact and fit right on the board.
- Replace your standard transformer with 3 separate toroids for servo/5v, output and display. Details are abound in this thread, but you want at least 50VA for the servo.
- Regulate your driver ICs (wait until after the servo supply is changed so you can use 7X12s, or else you'll end up doing it twice like me!)
- Install low jitter clocks for DAC and servo with their own isolated power supplies.
stefanom thanks for the tip...i will do it shortly and report.
Ben,those leds you are talking about are the brown ones?If yes,those are because of bypass the hdams so the caps been there are just left there.
Because budget is limited...if i do all these mods you suggest,which is going to be the result?I am asking because if all these mods(must cost quite a bit)and if kind of analogue musicality and been there in the event is the target,over the hyper analytical and accuracy of cd-63,i simply switch to my TDA1541 players.
We are not talking for better base or deeper base or empasize something over the other with these mods for the 63.
The big question is if it can be musical and analogue like as TDA.
Thanasis.
P.S mundorf ag 22000uf 25v are the same diameter as the bc ones i have on now.If 10000 25v,yes they are 25mm and fit better on board.
Ben,those leds you are talking about are the brown ones?If yes,those are because of bypass the hdams so the caps been there are just left there.
Because budget is limited...if i do all these mods you suggest,which is going to be the result?I am asking because if all these mods(must cost quite a bit)and if kind of analogue musicality and been there in the event is the target,over the hyper analytical and accuracy of cd-63,i simply switch to my TDA1541 players.
We are not talking for better base or deeper base or empasize something over the other with these mods for the 63.
The big question is if it can be musical and analogue like as TDA.
Thanasis.
P.S mundorf ag 22000uf 25v are the same diameter as the bc ones i have on now.If 10000 25v,yes they are 25mm and fit better on board.
Disclaimer: My comments are essentially the regurgitated wisdom of more knowledgeable contributors in this thread mixed with my own subjective and practical observations.
I meant you have long wires leading to your output stage smoothing caps, which I believe will reduce their effectiveness. I imagine different length leads for positive and negative supply could potentially cause an irregular output waveform. The 22,000uF Mundorfs are short enough vertically that they can be positioned where the original caps went with leads of 1cm or less.
I haven't heard a TDA specifically, but I listen to a lot of vinyl so I think I know what you are searching for when you say you want 'analogue', particularly as I am also familiar with the harsh, unbalanced sound that the CD63 can make due to voltage sag.
The transformers shouldn't set you back much at all in the scheme of things, and the 7812/7912 regulators for the driver ICs are almost nothing. For your trouble you will get deeper, fuller bass, but also less over-emphasis of treble and associated listening fatigue.
While I'm writing this, I'm wondering if anyone has tried just beefing up DAC supply without touching the servo? My player sounds much better with a dedicated DAC PSU, even on top of having the 60VA servo toroid. Is the voltage sag mainly heard in DAC analogue supply?
I meant you have long wires leading to your output stage smoothing caps, which I believe will reduce their effectiveness. I imagine different length leads for positive and negative supply could potentially cause an irregular output waveform. The 22,000uF Mundorfs are short enough vertically that they can be positioned where the original caps went with leads of 1cm or less.
I haven't heard a TDA specifically, but I listen to a lot of vinyl so I think I know what you are searching for when you say you want 'analogue', particularly as I am also familiar with the harsh, unbalanced sound that the CD63 can make due to voltage sag.
The transformers shouldn't set you back much at all in the scheme of things, and the 7812/7912 regulators for the driver ICs are almost nothing. For your trouble you will get deeper, fuller bass, but also less over-emphasis of treble and associated listening fatigue.
While I'm writing this, I'm wondering if anyone has tried just beefing up DAC supply without touching the servo? My player sounds much better with a dedicated DAC PSU, even on top of having the 60VA servo toroid. Is the voltage sag mainly heard in DAC analogue supply?
I concur - I put silver mica there and was impressed with the improvement. I didn't touch the resistors though. Good tip.
Ben,i listen to vinyl mainly too.My record colection is over 4000 vinys and the oposite for cd's about 100.So the cd-63 is a project just for fun without me having expectations to sound as the vinyl.It never will,not just the cd-63 but any digital player.I am sorry to be hard but this is reality.
So back to the 63...you think that with bigger transformer JUST for the servo and op-ap's (i am willing to keep the 63 owns one for display)..it is possible isn't it?And you think that this harsh and nasty over analytical sound will go?
By the way this C505 and R509 change,did make a difference.+1 for stefanom.
Thanasis.
So back to the 63...you think that with bigger transformer JUST for the servo and op-ap's (i am willing to keep the 63 owns one for display)..it is possible isn't it?And you think that this harsh and nasty over analytical sound will go?
By the way this C505 and R509 change,did make a difference.+1 for stefanom.
Thanasis.
Hmm... I can't promise it, not knowing what you are hearing. I sometime A/B between the same albums playing simultaneously on my CD63 and turntable by swapping inputs. The difference in resolution and dynamic capability is clear, but there is no harshness. I've had that before, but that was because of 'bugs' in my mods at that time that were later resolved.
You swapped op-amps to LM4562, right? Did you tag a small (0.1uF) film cap across the power pins for stability?
You added regs direct to the chip supplies? Do you have adequate post-reg local decoupling? (e.g. 470uF).
What kind of op-amp power caps are you using? I found that rolling those made a big difference. Black Gate N were my favourites there, but they are out of production now. If you enjoy building things, there's always the DOS!
If you're willing to invest the time to go forward (or back - there's no shame there) then I think you have a chance to achieve a level of performance that will surprise you and won't always make you want to turn it off and switch to vinyl.
At the end of the day, it's all just fun (or a rollercoaster of elation and angst if that's your bag).
- LM4562 cap - I think it might be necessary for stability, dependent on other factors. I don't recall running without one for long. It goes diagonally between the +\- pins (4 and 8?). Under the board works.
- Op-amp power caps - I'm not familiar with ERO, but this is a very critical position for choice of cap. I wouldn't worry too much about a high temperature rating in this application, just nice audio caps. I think the KI used Cerafines there, or was it Silmics?
- DAC power decoupling is also a critical position for choice of cap. A lot of people use Sanyo OSCONs on the digital. I use BG NX. The DAC analogue supply decoupling is also very influential on the sound. The power supply to those pins directly affects the output. I prefer BG FK there. I think Rubycon ZA are a popular choice? (Help me out, guys)
I would say it's pretty vital to have good quality, decent sized caps after those regulators. Definitely get that sorted before looking at changing transformers around, as they just slow you down. You won't make the player sound worse by giving the DAC and op-amps a smoother supply with bigger and better caps).
- Op-amp power caps - I'm not familiar with ERO, but this is a very critical position for choice of cap. I wouldn't worry too much about a high temperature rating in this application, just nice audio caps. I think the KI used Cerafines there, or was it Silmics?
- DAC power decoupling is also a critical position for choice of cap. A lot of people use Sanyo OSCONs on the digital. I use BG NX. The DAC analogue supply decoupling is also very influential on the sound. The power supply to those pins directly affects the output. I prefer BG FK there. I think Rubycon ZA are a popular choice? (Help me out, guys)
I would say it's pretty vital to have good quality, decent sized caps after those regulators. Definitely get that sorted before looking at changing transformers around, as they just slow you down. You won't make the player sound worse by giving the DAC and op-amps a smoother supply with bigger and better caps).
Ben,mine had cerafine and i say to give a try on other brand.I use to had cerafine's on a kathode of a tube and the sound was harsh and thin.I did replace them with BC Philips and i see the ...light.Ok,different position different aplication...but who knows.
I don't have rubycon's at hand,i only have some BG FK 100uf and 220uf 16 and 50volt.They are not good for the regulators..... aren't they, plus that the 220uf are huge.So i better order some Rubycon zla form ebay then.
I don't have rubycon's at hand,i only have some BG FK 100uf and 220uf 16 and 50volt.They are not good for the regulators..... aren't they, plus that the 220uf are huge.So i better order some Rubycon zla form ebay then.
I would probably put two 220uF BGs on DAC analogue decoupling and the four 100uF on the op-amps. Maybe wait for a second opinion though... I'm not sure if 16v is enough headroom.
If you don't have a cap after any of your regs then I recommend putting one in.
DOS stands for Discrete Output Stage
It's a PCB that Ray designed to replace the op-amp output stage and filter in the CD63/67 and other models.
If you don't have a cap after any of your regs then I recommend putting one in.
DOS stands for Discrete Output Stage
It's a PCB that Ray designed to replace the op-amp output stage and filter in the CD63/67 and other models.
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Latest reports for latest mods.
Put 0.1 100v red wima cap on 4,8 pin of lm4562, left it burn in over knight.Well this morning it was the worst sound i have heard from cd-63.Sound became much smaller and dool.
Also change the red decupling cerafines for the op-amps with other brands....test with the wima on and without wima's.My opinion...DON'T touch the cerafines...i haven't try BG yet.Will see.
Put 0.1 100v red wima cap on 4,8 pin of lm4562, left it burn in over knight.Well this morning it was the worst sound i have heard from cd-63.Sound became much smaller and dool.
Also change the red decupling cerafines for the op-amps with other brands....test with the wima on and without wima's.My opinion...DON'T touch the cerafines...i haven't try BG yet.Will see.
The 16V caps might be a bit thight. the rail voltage is usually 15 to 17 volts in cd players in general. If I were you, I'd buy a couple of 25V (or higher) caps to de-couple the opamps or lower the rail voltage to 12V.
Using the 220uf caps on the analog de-coupling of the DAC is a good idea imho.
I used 0.25uF MKP and it makes the SQ smooth.
Try Rubycon 470uF ZLG or ZLH they are cheap and good smoothing caps for opamps. Also change the orange caps (120pF) with MKPs. They make a difference.