Go Back   Home > Forums > >
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Digital Source Digital Players and Recorders: CD , SACD , Tape, Memory Card, etc.

CD playback and DAC
CD playback and DAC
Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 25th May 2020, 09:47 AM   #101
Almeg69 is offline Almeg69  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
I take it that Evenharmonics only listens to MP3 64Kbps which is the threshold when comparing CD to MP3.
It takes that much degradation before people notice the difference under DBT or ABX.
If not, go away and stop thread crapping and showing your hypocrisy
__________________
Thanks, Alex.
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2020, 11:24 AM   #102
Markw4 is offline Markw4  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: California
I can hear single opamps and I can hear differences between dacs. In my case its mostly because I listen for clues resulting from small nonlinearities. While it may be hard for members of the general public to hear such things, I personally don't think its unusual among people that tend to populate audio forums. IMHO, there is simply some fraction of the general population whose brains notice small differences in sounds. The fraction may be small enough that most research hasn't picked it up, and or results from such people may have been discarded as outliers by researchers (expectation/experimenter bias).

Also, a very personal experience is that my grown son was not by nature able to hear small differences despite being a reasonably well rounded musician. Over a period of about a year I repeatedly pointed out small audible effects/defects to him on our stereo. Eventually, he learned to recognize every small sound I told him about and after a few additional years he is starting to notice some additional types for himself.

One big confounder in the subject area is that some people who claim to hear differences really do not listen carefully nor are they able to pass fair testing (trickery is unfair and extremely biased to a particular desired outcome). Those are the ones who buy silly over-priced gear that does not deliver on its claims. Unfortunately, there are too many of them in the general population. On this forum my impression is that there are more careful listeners than careless ones, but there are some of both. Please don't make the mistake of stereotyping all people as being the same, stereotyping is way over-used around here too much of the time.

EDIT: Since I mentioned testing above, I need to also say that most of the careful listeners can be trained to pass ABX or preferably A/B blind testing. It is harder than sighted testing and it takes some practice to learn how to do it well blind. Novices subjected to ABX without proper training will produce a relatively high amount of false-negatives. A/B is known to produce less false negatives and should probably be used preferentially when possible.

There are more thoughts and experiences that could be talked about, but will stop here for now

Last edited by Markw4; 25th May 2020 at 11:33 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2020, 11:31 AM   #103
TNT is offline TNT  Sweden
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Sweden
If one feel one is really, really special, maybe one should not impose ones ideas on the "general public". There is no real point in it, is there?

//
__________________
More distortion to the people!
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2020, 11:31 AM   #104
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
diyAudio Member
 
scottjoplin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Penrhyndeudraeth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markw4 View Post

Also, a very personal experience is that my grown son was not by nature able to hear small differences despite being a reasonably well rounded musician. Over a period of about a year I repeatedly pointed out small audible effects/defects to him on our stereo. Eventually, he learned to recognize every small sound I told him about and after a few additional years he is starting to notice some additional types for himself.
This Be The Verse
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2020, 11:59 AM   #105
Markw4 is offline Markw4  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: California
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNT View Post
If one feel one is really, really special, maybe one should not impose ones ideas on the "general public". There is no real point in it, is there?
I don't feel special, if that is what you are implying.

The general public is the majority of the population that listens to recorded music. They have been studied to model what humans on average find to be acceptable sound quality. I didn't involve them, other people already have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2020, 01:33 PM   #106
billshurv is offline billshurv  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
billshurv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
CD playback and DAC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markw4 View Post
I can hear single opamps and I can hear differences between dacs. In my case its mostly because I listen for clues resulting from small nonlinearities.
Only with a very specific fast switching protocol and (as you have admitted) your ear stuck right in the speaker. whilst I am happy to accept (pending a sample greater than two having tried this) that there is a possible method here to enhance sensitivity, it infers inaudibility when listening to music.



Quote:
Also, a very personal experience is that my grown son
Well makes a change from wife in the kitchen!
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2020, 01:44 PM   #107
Markw4 is offline Markw4  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: California
Quote:
Originally Posted by billshurv View Post
Only with a very specific fast switching protocol and (as you have admitted) your ear stuck right in the speaker.
Bill, that was with recordings of single opamps. So many layers of masking going on it was incredibly difficult. I came up with a protocol to fit the difficulty of the circumstances.

Now I have a much lower distortion reproduction chain here, and listening to an opamp right here is *far* easier that listening to one in a recording. Same for dacs, I would expect recordings of dacs to be hard to tell apart as compared to in-person.

Actually, I'm surprised I have to explain the above to you. Seems quite obvious to me.

Last edited by Markw4; 25th May 2020 at 01:47 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2020, 01:57 PM   #108
billshurv is offline billshurv  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
billshurv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
CD playback and DAC
Ah but that now puts it straight back in the land of anecdote. If you were to offer to do the opamp test again with renamed files that would be a data point.



The only thing I see obvious is you are claiming that sighted listening makes it easier to spot a difference.
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2020, 02:07 PM   #109
Markw4 is offline Markw4  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: California
By the way, if anyone wants to try their hand at listening to recordings of devices, years ago Lynn Fuston, a recording engineer with an online presence, made a CD of various ADCs so that other people looking for an ADC could get an idea of their audible differences. I bought it for $35 and listened to it every day because I already got burned twice with ADCs I didn't end up liking and therefore got rid of.

The recorded ADCs were very hard to tell apart at 16/44, although some of them more than others. I was determined to listen until I knew which ones I could be happy with.

In later years after that happened, the ADCD as it was called, was sold online for $5 with the 16/44 wave files all downloadable. I bought a copy of that too in case I wanted to train anyone else to hear the differences. I still have the files on a back disk up somewhere. Since the 3D audio website seems to be gone or down, there is apparently no place to buy the $5 collection of files any more. Therefore, I would be willing to let a few people try learning to hear the small differences at 16/44 via borrowing my copy. A feature of the CD/files is that the names are obfuscated so they can be used for self-blind testing. There is a decoding table in the pamphlet included in the CD jewel case (also a downloadable copy of it with the audio file downloads). I warn people though, some of the recordings are very difficult distinguish from one another and it will take practice at careful listening to hear their differences. The good news is one can acquire a new skill or improve an existing one.
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2020, 02:14 PM   #110
Markw4 is offline Markw4  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: California
Quote:
Originally Posted by billshurv View Post
The only thing I see obvious is you are claiming that sighted listening makes it easier to spot a difference.
No at all, I still do some self-blind testing, and or blind test others. Don't know how/why you draw so many flawed conclusions.

To make it very clear: What I was claiming is that less masking distortion and noise makes it easier to spot a difference. Again, I should think that would be obvious.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


CD playback and DACHide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FAT 16 & 32 USB playback TJ52 Digital Line Level 0 30th August 2014 12:23 PM
PC playback merlin2069er PC Based 15 10th November 2011 09:58 PM
DIY DVD-A Playback??? Zero Cool Digital Source 0 22nd October 2011 06:53 PM
Playback Amp jman 31 Chip Amps 83 3rd May 2009 11:54 PM
24/96 playback question brsanko Digital Source 1 22nd February 2005 07:24 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 08:45 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 14.29%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2020 diyAudio
Wiki