I've been having fun with my two Pioneer DV-563A units! I'm keeping one for a control unit and modding the beejeepers out of the other one.
I have found the SACD/philips chip tech manual on the net, and well, the job is pretty straightforward so far. The unit seems to be responding very well to changes so far! And DANG.. it's cheap! My inner Scot is snappng it's suspenders.....
I like to give electronics what the techs call 'The Shotgun treatment', which is to go in there and change EVERYTHING.
Anyone else playing with this unit?
I have found the SACD/philips chip tech manual on the net, and well, the job is pretty straightforward so far. The unit seems to be responding very well to changes so far! And DANG.. it's cheap! My inner Scot is snappng it's suspenders.....
I like to give electronics what the techs call 'The Shotgun treatment', which is to go in there and change EVERYTHING.
Anyone else playing with this unit?
Yes, me toos.
I've done what I usually do with equipment. I have no tech manual, but I go in there and do rules 1 through 10 of audio design:
1. Power supply
2. Power supply
3. Power supply
4. Power supply
5. Power supply
6. Power supply
7. Power supply
8. Power supply
9. Power supply
10. Power supply
A bit of exaggeration, but the idea is sound.
signal coupling caps as well, op amp changes, stabilizing the clocking circuit, etc. a bit of physical work on the mechanism helps too.
That manual would be interesting to look at...
One problem with the unit is the the clocking circuit's output is going to a divider circuit where the divider's power supply and signal is too far away, so fixing the divider's power supply really helped out the fidelity of the unit. The good deal, is the BB 192khz DAC (1791) is right at the output. but...the PS lines are way too long ..and weak and noisy.
I've done what I usually do with equipment. I have no tech manual, but I go in there and do rules 1 through 10 of audio design:
1. Power supply
2. Power supply
3. Power supply
4. Power supply
5. Power supply
6. Power supply
7. Power supply
8. Power supply
9. Power supply
10. Power supply
A bit of exaggeration, but the idea is sound.
signal coupling caps as well, op amp changes, stabilizing the clocking circuit, etc. a bit of physical work on the mechanism helps too.
That manual would be interesting to look at...
One problem with the unit is the the clocking circuit's output is going to a divider circuit where the divider's power supply and signal is too far away, so fixing the divider's power supply really helped out the fidelity of the unit. The good deal, is the BB 192khz DAC (1791) is right at the output. but...the PS lines are way too long ..and weak and noisy.
Multi-channel ?
Does this player support multi-channel SACD ? Nothing tells me it does, and I am puzzled as to how it can do SACD alone. A lot of SACDs seem to be multi-channel. Please enlighten me, also, details regarding the schematics would be welcome, especially the filtering used along with the DACs (are they really 1791s ?)
Thanks....
Does this player support multi-channel SACD ? Nothing tells me it does, and I am puzzled as to how it can do SACD alone. A lot of SACDs seem to be multi-channel. Please enlighten me, also, details regarding the schematics would be welcome, especially the filtering used along with the DACs (are they really 1791s ?)
Thanks....
The Main L+R Stereo DAC is the BB 1791. The other two (rear center) are lesser BB DACs. The PS is re-regualted and filtered very close to the dacs, and they are inches or less from the output connectors. I have re done all the caps at the philips SACD chip, amongst other things. Re-doing the divider circuts has seemingly stabilized jitter components. There is a divider by the main 27Mhz crystal for the SACD decoder, and a secondary divider (same source?) near the output DAC. I have done the PS on all three with os-cons. Output coupling is, of course, crummy electrolytics. The op-amp on the output is ...I can't remember off hand, but it is a single sided PS, much to my chagrin.
Clocking and caps
Have you reduced jitter by changing crystals or oscillators ?
As far as caps are concerned, UCC has a bunch of newer parts that are listed in their newer catalog (called Focus Products 2003a- purple cover)
I am sorry to hear they (Pioneer) haven't use the 1791 on the other channels. Compromises to get to the price point...
So far, the Denon 2200 seems to be a good unit for the $$ but if I can get a cheaper unit with good converters, I would go for it.
Have you reduced jitter by changing crystals or oscillators ?
As far as caps are concerned, UCC has a bunch of newer parts that are listed in their newer catalog (called Focus Products 2003a- purple cover)
I am sorry to hear they (Pioneer) haven't use the 1791 on the other channels. Compromises to get to the price point...
So far, the Denon 2200 seems to be a good unit for the $$ but if I can get a cheaper unit with good converters, I would go for it.
Re: Bought it
I just bought one as well. I find it's audio performance to be slightly better than my DV-45A (when it was stock) on all formats!!! I also find it's internal pcb and component layout to be better, and all for $179
I plan to start mods on this unit in a week or two. I just finished moving and I need to set up my work bench, and I'm waiting for the service manual. I plan to use it as a transport w/ my Ack dAck for Redbook, but I'll use it's analog outs for SACD, DVD-A, and I'll use this unit for DVD video. Picture quality looks great
I think this unit has lots of potential. Just take a look at what
www.aplhifi.com has already done.
I hope we can all keep this thread alive and share our tweaks and experiences, and hopefully others will join us as well
I'll be posting my experiences when I start in a week or two.
Regards,
Vinnie
Demir said:
I just bought one as well. I find it's audio performance to be slightly better than my DV-45A (when it was stock) on all formats!!! I also find it's internal pcb and component layout to be better, and all for $179
I plan to start mods on this unit in a week or two. I just finished moving and I need to set up my work bench, and I'm waiting for the service manual. I plan to use it as a transport w/ my Ack dAck for Redbook, but I'll use it's analog outs for SACD, DVD-A, and I'll use this unit for DVD video. Picture quality looks great
I think this unit has lots of potential. Just take a look at what
www.aplhifi.com has already done.
I hope we can all keep this thread alive and share our tweaks and experiences, and hopefully others will join us as well
I'll be posting my experiences when I start in a week or two.
Regards,
Vinnie
Frustrated
Hi,
I am disappointed with one result, which may be more SACD technology related than player specific.
The 563 is connected to a Denon 3803 through RCA cables. I also have an optical connection for movies.
For SACD material (multi-channel mode), there seems to be no way to inject the information on the SW channel to the L and R. Hence, a subwoofer is a must. I have resisted getting a sub for music listening and would prefer not going down that path.
The receiver does not process data fed through the Ext In connections. Therefore, I would wish that the 563 outputs L and R in full range, especially since the SW channel is set to Off. This does not seem possible. To my surprise, the SACD material I own (one of which the logo is above my name) seems to have a lot of content in the SW channel.
Does the feature called Bass Management shown in the Pioneer Elite and Denon players solve this problem ?
Any ideas ?
Thanks...
Hi,
I am disappointed with one result, which may be more SACD technology related than player specific.
The 563 is connected to a Denon 3803 through RCA cables. I also have an optical connection for movies.
For SACD material (multi-channel mode), there seems to be no way to inject the information on the SW channel to the L and R. Hence, a subwoofer is a must. I have resisted getting a sub for music listening and would prefer not going down that path.
The receiver does not process data fed through the Ext In connections. Therefore, I would wish that the 563 outputs L and R in full range, especially since the SW channel is set to Off. This does not seem possible. To my surprise, the SACD material I own (one of which the logo is above my name) seems to have a lot of content in the SW channel.
Does the feature called Bass Management shown in the Pioneer Elite and Denon players solve this problem ?
Any ideas ?
Thanks...
Re: New thread
Demir,
Sorry I can't be of much help with multichannel. I have no intentions of using this player for any sort of surround sound, only stereo (even for DVD video). For SACD and DVD-A, I will only be playing them in hi-res two-channel mode, which doesn't not have the problem you posted above. In fact, I probably will disable/remove some of the multichannel circuitry.
I plan to keep only a L and R rca jack for stereo out, a coax digital out (remove the optical out), and the S-Video and/or component video out). I may put in new, better quality jacks in the future, but I am only using a stereo setup.
I'm sure others are in the same boat as you and want multichannel, so I hope they can chime in and give you a hand.
Regards,
Vinnie
Demir said:
Demir,
Sorry I can't be of much help with multichannel. I have no intentions of using this player for any sort of surround sound, only stereo (even for DVD video). For SACD and DVD-A, I will only be playing them in hi-res two-channel mode, which doesn't not have the problem you posted above. In fact, I probably will disable/remove some of the multichannel circuitry.
I plan to keep only a L and R rca jack for stereo out, a coax digital out (remove the optical out), and the S-Video and/or component video out). I may put in new, better quality jacks in the future, but I am only using a stereo setup.
I'm sure others are in the same boat as you and want multichannel, so I hope they can chime in and give you a hand.
Regards,
Vinnie
Re: Re: New thread
That's all I want this puppy for myself. I love making these little things perform. Just apply a bit of reasonable modification, ...
Vinnie R. said:
Demir,
For SACD and DVD-A, I will only be playing them in hi-res two-channel mode, which doesn't not have the problem you posted above. In fact, I probably will disable/remove some of the multichannel circuitry.
That's all I want this puppy for myself. I love making these little things perform. Just apply a bit of reasonable modification, ...
Re: Yes, me toos.
Yes, the DV-45A uses this type of topology as well (27Mhz going into a freq. divider). How did you 'fix the divider's power supply' and did you attempt to alter the power supply lines to the BB DAC? What else have you done so far, can you provide us with more detailed info please
What have you done to the power supply unit? I was thinking of starting at the beginning of it by changing the bridge diodes with HEXFREDs and replacing the 250V cap with one that has some more uF's. On the DC side of the power supply, some of those lower quality caps could be replaced with some Panasonic FCs (not expensive, but sound good). Maybe a little more uF's would be good, but I don't like to over do this on switching power supplies.
I'm hoping to start next week.
-Vinnie
KBK said:
Yes, the DV-45A uses this type of topology as well (27Mhz going into a freq. divider). How did you 'fix the divider's power supply' and did you attempt to alter the power supply lines to the BB DAC? What else have you done so far, can you provide us with more detailed info please
What have you done to the power supply unit? I was thinking of starting at the beginning of it by changing the bridge diodes with HEXFREDs and replacing the 250V cap with one that has some more uF's. On the DC side of the power supply, some of those lower quality caps could be replaced with some Panasonic FCs (not expensive, but sound good). Maybe a little more uF's would be good, but I don't like to over do this on switching power supplies.
I'm hoping to start next week.
-Vinnie
I haven't swapped the diodes yet, and I haven't done much more than used a bunch of pulled PC MOBO 470-3300uf caps (rubycon, etc..I had swapped out the PC board caps for OS-CONS, to make the fastest PC boards you can get.....very expensive!!!) as replacements on the PS board itself. I have a box of HV caps somewhere, so I should be getting in there and swapping it out...
I re-did the divider's power supply with os-con caps. There are TWO dividers, one at the 27mhz chip itself and one on the last board before the BB1791 dac. I did this the same way as well. A slight change was discernable, but it was enough to make one want to do it. All the buffering of the PS was one at the chips in question and at the re-regulation points for the rails, near the affected circuits.
I tend to look after the motor drive PS as well, as the noise and drain DOES come off of that same power supply....
I re-did the divider's power supply with os-con caps. There are TWO dividers, one at the 27mhz chip itself and one on the last board before the BB1791 dac. I did this the same way as well. A slight change was discernable, but it was enough to make one want to do it. All the buffering of the PS was one at the chips in question and at the re-regulation points for the rails, near the affected circuits.
I tend to look after the motor drive PS as well, as the noise and drain DOES come off of that same power supply....
one oppinion
As far as I know about these /DVD/ machines, 27 MHz is the main clock signal, used for Video and processing. Audio Clocks such as 24.576MHz and 22.xxxx MHz are Derived from this main clock with a PLL, not a DIVIDER /u cannot divide 27 to 24.576
/ And some benefits and pitfalls:
Jitter of the main clock is reduced or INCREASED to the one of the VCO in that PLL. To make it less, it is necessary to give the PLL a good clean Supply /u know that/. Most of the audio Clock generators, especially designed for this purpose, have 2-3 logic level inputs and a freq. input of 27 MHz - with 2-3 bits of static info they are told to set the output freq. to 22.xxxx or 24.576 or some else freq. - > i.e. they have fixed application , if I can call them so. TI and other manifacturers have such chips, they cost about $1..2 in high volumes - check out PLL1705/06 /i think/ and /?MT?/ 1412
The great problem is that these PLL's has a jitter figure of 75...300pS, which cannot be bettered no matter how clean supply u give them - assuming they have proper layaut and very close to the chip loop filter - look some AN's if interested -> this can be a significant up-grade, in not done well.
For DVD-A and CD, ASRC and fixed freq. low jitter XO can be used to reduce jitter /AD1896 and Tent or Kwak or LC Audio Clocks/ - > this is the greatest solution for me.
regards
PS: the second chip is MK1412, used in the cheap DVD-737 from Phillips. Jitter is 190pS peak, acc. to datasheet.
Hi and Happy New year to everyone!!!KBK said:
As far as I know about these /DVD/ machines, 27 MHz is the main clock signal, used for Video and processing. Audio Clocks such as 24.576MHz and 22.xxxx MHz are Derived from this main clock with a PLL, not a DIVIDER /u cannot divide 27 to 24.576
/ And some benefits and pitfalls:Jitter of the main clock is reduced or INCREASED to the one of the VCO in that PLL. To make it less, it is necessary to give the PLL a good clean Supply /u know that/. Most of the audio Clock generators, especially designed for this purpose, have 2-3 logic level inputs and a freq. input of 27 MHz - with 2-3 bits of static info they are told to set the output freq. to 22.xxxx or 24.576 or some else freq. - > i.e. they have fixed application , if I can call them so. TI and other manifacturers have such chips, they cost about $1..2 in high volumes - check out PLL1705/06 /i think/ and /?MT?/ 1412
The great problem is that these PLL's has a jitter figure of 75...300pS, which cannot be bettered no matter how clean supply u give them - assuming they have proper layaut and very close to the chip loop filter - look some AN's if interested -> this can be a significant up-grade, in not done well.
For DVD-A and CD, ASRC and fixed freq. low jitter XO can be used to reduce jitter /AD1896 and Tent or Kwak or LC Audio Clocks/ - > this is the greatest solution for me.
regards
PS: the second chip is MK1412, used in the cheap DVD-737 from Phillips. Jitter is 190pS peak, acc. to datasheet.
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