I have a marantz cc4000ose that I have upgraded with a list of parts
caps
regulators
diodes
new laser
transformer sheild
mechanical dampening
ers tape
all of it is done and it works yay (not bad for a carpenter)
pics are here if you are interested
PROJECT OSE MARANTZ CC4000OSE pictures by GLENZWORLD - Photobucket
what I really want to know ...
Is there an alternative to running the signal directly through capacitors?
if you run the capacitor across the rails or I think you call it parallel, does that block dc?
right now the signal passes through or in series with 10uf from dac output then 47uf at opamp output
is there a better way to block dc without running signal through caps?
yes film is better and if it cannot be done without caps how do you calculate minimum size for that circuit?
would p spice do that for me?
thanks for any help for anyone with experience
Glen
caps
regulators
diodes
new laser
transformer sheild
mechanical dampening
ers tape
all of it is done and it works yay (not bad for a carpenter)
pics are here if you are interested
PROJECT OSE MARANTZ CC4000OSE pictures by GLENZWORLD - Photobucket
what I really want to know ...
Is there an alternative to running the signal directly through capacitors?
if you run the capacitor across the rails or I think you call it parallel, does that block dc?
right now the signal passes through or in series with 10uf from dac output then 47uf at opamp output
is there a better way to block dc without running signal through caps?
yes film is better and if it cannot be done without caps how do you calculate minimum size for that circuit?
would p spice do that for me?
thanks for any help for anyone with experience
Glen
thanks again as you replied to another thread I wrote
ha and said the same
so from someone who is a layman it seem kinda silly to have dc at dac output
is that common?
if I place pos lead of voltmeter to pos side of cap and neg to neg, is that correct to test for dc before capacitor after opamp?
thinking wima poly after dac what size would you go with?
are direct coupled systems used in audio?
thanks
Glen
ha and said the same
so from someone who is a layman it seem kinda silly to have dc at dac output
is that common?
if I place pos lead of voltmeter to pos side of cap and neg to neg, is that correct to test for dc before capacitor after opamp?
thinking wima poly after dac what size would you go with?
are direct coupled systems used in audio?
thanks
Glen
Voltmeter neg lead to chassis ground, pos lead to the opamp-side of each cap. You should read under 100mV is there is no defect in the circuit.
The post-dac cap value I would actually double in uf value, which I would make a Nichicon FG or KW, with as fat a film cap in parallel as will fit.
I think most audio manufacturers use dc blocking caps on output lines that don't need them just to make UL happy, lest a bad opamp send out a dc voltage that won't hurt a darn thing.
The post-dac cap value I would actually double in uf value, which I would make a Nichicon FG or KW, with as fat a film cap in parallel as will fit.
I think most audio manufacturers use dc blocking caps on output lines that don't need them just to make UL happy, lest a bad opamp send out a dc voltage that won't hurt a darn thing.
Although nothing to do with DC coupling... have you changed those 4560 opamps ?
Looking at the circuit I can't see a problem stability wise in trying something like the OPA2134. Something like that would imo make more of a difference than all the other mods together.
The mute transistors (7839, 40, 41 and 42) might usefully be replaced with FET's such as 2SK117 and 2SK170. Think that is something Stephen often favours.
Looking at the circuit I can't see a problem stability wise in trying something like the OPA2134. Something like that would imo make more of a difference than all the other mods together.
The mute transistors (7839, 40, 41 and 42) might usefully be replaced with FET's such as 2SK117 and 2SK170. Think that is something Stephen often favours.
DC blocking caps are not just there to prevent fires. They also prevent damage to expensive amplifiers and speakers, and can help filter out subsonics which you can't hear anyway but may create IM distortion with signals you can hear. There is no point in sending lots of LF to a speaker which can't handle it.
Capacitors, when used correctly, are not evil!
Capacitors, when used correctly, are not evil!
just do not want to send the signal through anything I don`t have to
except maybe my amp or pre or god forbid my dynes
so you say go from 10uf to 20uf is that to lower esr and ripple?
right now every cap has been replaced with muse and silmic II, schottky diodes into belleson regulator and silmic II polar on dac out muse es bipolar on opamp out, h/p is unplugged and kill transistors are gone on analog L R out
would like to put smaller polypropylene on dac out and put 250 ohm wirewound strait out from opamp to rca
would that work?
should there be something across the rails for subsonic?
will a capacitor accross + - rail block dc?
thanks again to all for help and time
Glen
I can't even estimate the hundreds of dacs, tuners, tape decks, etc. that I have mod'd for clients & myself over the years in which I have removed unnecessary dc blocking caps. Not even one time have I ever had reports of ANY negative consequence. As I think you are, I am very much inclined to believe that anything in the signal path that doesn't need to be there should be removed. There is no cap as transparent as nothing.
You won't have any unnatural subsonics on any digital source, and any good phono stage will have a filter for warpage subsonics. And only a poor amp or preamp would be disturbed in any way by natural subsonic info, and likewise speakers. Your speakers would tell you straight away if there was subsonic intermod distortion anyway, as it would plainly modulate the upper ranges and/or cause the woofers to bottom out obviously.
The increase in cap value is just my personal philosophy of "just enough overkill to be sure", in this case for low frequency bandwidth. A pp cap by itself, especially a Wima(which I personally think suck) won't have enough LF bandwidth until it's too physically large to fit in the space, and I think Nichicon lytics do a great job on the low end, so films can do just the finesse work in the mids & highs. I'll also say that I very much believe that soft recovery epitaxials(hexfreds, etc.) are better than schottky diodes.
thanks for the reply and I will test for dc on opamp
the silmic I have on dac out are large (physically) but are polar and I don`t know if that makes a difference
I have also seen tests with scope at different frequencies that show no difference when bypassing caps but there seems to be alot of people doing it and some like yourself swear by it
the only cap on my preamp (acurus RL11) is bypassed with a relcap and I dont know who built it but is also full of nichicon kz for power
I sold audio for years at A&B Sound and I found a real rift between what you could hear and what some science said.
that being said I don`t want to bottom my speakers but I do want it all.
meaning least amount of changes to the music as possible, ha you remember the music right?
what this whole thing is about
that was for some others Stephen and I appreciate ALL input
and I have to laugh because I bought epitaxial diodes in case because Mike Kerster at Parts Conection recomended but then said the TI schottkies were better
can you hear the diff?
big thanks to mike and Chris Johnson at parts con for all their help
so do you think bigger caps physically make for better low end?
thanks for everyone's time and help
Glen
the silmic I have on dac out are large (physically) but are polar and I don`t know if that makes a difference
I have also seen tests with scope at different frequencies that show no difference when bypassing caps but there seems to be alot of people doing it and some like yourself swear by it
the only cap on my preamp (acurus RL11) is bypassed with a relcap and I dont know who built it but is also full of nichicon kz for power
I sold audio for years at A&B Sound and I found a real rift between what you could hear and what some science said.
that being said I don`t want to bottom my speakers but I do want it all.
meaning least amount of changes to the music as possible, ha you remember the music right?
what this whole thing is about
that was for some others Stephen and I appreciate ALL input
and I have to laugh because I bought epitaxial diodes in case because Mike Kerster at Parts Conection recomended but then said the TI schottkies were better
can you hear the diff?
big thanks to mike and Chris Johnson at parts con for all their help
so do you think bigger caps physically make for better low end?
thanks for everyone's time and help
Glen
Don't forget that any really serious subsonic content will be blocked by the caps needed on the dac output, if there was ever actually a genuine concern about that. But I have done many, many dacs/players where I've eliminated all caps from dac chips to output jacks, and never a problem.
My feeling is that we simply have not yet figured out everything that needs to be measured, nor how to measure, to explain the large gap between what we measure & what we hear.
I am a big fan of Relcaps, and will always use them when I have the physical space & the budget to use them. In lytics, I will ONLY use Nichicon and Nippon Chemicon since 35 years of building/service experience tells me nothing else comes close to their reliability, and upper level grades of each perform at least as well as any lytic out there, usually better. But I never depend on lytics alone for any serious audio. Always do film bypasses, even if all I can squeeze in is a polyester.
If you want to really hear the difference between rectifiers, do a/b testing with a good quality phono stage, which will be most sensitive to supply noise. Have not yet detected a difference between IRC Hexfreds and IXYS DSEI-series soft recoveries, but I definitely am quite sure they make for smoother sound with blacker background than schottky's, and they are a hell of a lot more bulletproof.
I did not mean to say that a physically larger cap will have better bass than a smaller cap of same value, but rather that I always use a larger *value* cap than is technically needed, which I do think yields better bass.
My feeling is that we simply have not yet figured out everything that needs to be measured, nor how to measure, to explain the large gap between what we measure & what we hear.
I am a big fan of Relcaps, and will always use them when I have the physical space & the budget to use them. In lytics, I will ONLY use Nichicon and Nippon Chemicon since 35 years of building/service experience tells me nothing else comes close to their reliability, and upper level grades of each perform at least as well as any lytic out there, usually better. But I never depend on lytics alone for any serious audio. Always do film bypasses, even if all I can squeeze in is a polyester.
If you want to really hear the difference between rectifiers, do a/b testing with a good quality phono stage, which will be most sensitive to supply noise. Have not yet detected a difference between IRC Hexfreds and IXYS DSEI-series soft recoveries, but I definitely am quite sure they make for smoother sound with blacker background than schottky's, and they are a hell of a lot more bulletproof.
I did not mean to say that a physically larger cap will have better bass than a smaller cap of same value, but rather that I always use a larger *value* cap than is technically needed, which I do think yields better bass.
thanks for your help and honesty
now I just need to get a good and reasonable dc multimeter
so now I have to try and get some film on those dac out
I also just changed the large can caps in my acurus a150 amp and noticed what looks to be an input and output caps on each channel but I can`t seem to get a schematic for that and it has 2 tiny lytics on I think input and the rest are wima film
you like the nichicon and I`v heard they can sound bright
also heard that silmics can sound colored and that wima`s can sound screechy
when will they make a 100uf polypropylene that fits 5mm spacing lol
we would still want more
still searching for the holy grail
Glen
now I just need to get a good and reasonable dc multimeter
so now I have to try and get some film on those dac out
I also just changed the large can caps in my acurus a150 amp and noticed what looks to be an input and output caps on each channel but I can`t seem to get a schematic for that and it has 2 tiny lytics on I think input and the rest are wima film
you like the nichicon and I`v heard they can sound bright
also heard that silmics can sound colored and that wima`s can sound screechy
when will they make a 100uf polypropylene that fits 5mm spacing lol
we would still want more
still searching for the holy grail
Glen
Can't generalise about the sound of an entire brand of caps. But, generally, all but the lowest grades(i.e., not made for audio) definitely don't "sound bright". Be careful reading opinions and a/b test results. I don't know that anyone takes into account that electrolytic caps, in particular, take a solid 400 hours to come close to fully breaking in. When the lytic is doing signal path, this means 400 hours of rigorous passing of signal, so a lytic doing, for instance, power amp input coupling, where it gets way less than line level signal unless the amp is blasting, it can take a hell of a lot longer. Before break-in, even the best lytics typically sound coarse on top and mids, and people tend to rush to judgement, picking the lytic that sounds better right away, usually ending up with the cap that sounds far less than best after break-in.
Ideally, on your dac chip output lines, space allowing, I would use a 33uf/25v KZ Muse with a 0.22uf Rel PPFA + 0.01uf RT. Will sound beautiful immediately, and would get damn near as transparent as a (quality) jumper wire after break in. Really doubt you have that kind of space available, though. And I can't say I would consider that player worth investing in such nice caps.
The Acurus & Aragon amps, which are nicely built, but strangely sensitive to speaker load(can downright squawk with certain speakers), have an input/driver stage design that can be easily thrown off by small dc offsets at the input, so I would be a little hesitant to dc-couple the input. So, I would keep the input caps(the existing little Nichicon is bypassed by the 0.1uf mediocre film cap next to it). But at least you have ample room to put in a cap combo such as exactly what I suggest above.
BTW, my experience with very well-broken-in Wima metallised polypropylenes is that they sound hazy & veiled, not screechy.
Ideally, on your dac chip output lines, space allowing, I would use a 33uf/25v KZ Muse with a 0.22uf Rel PPFA + 0.01uf RT. Will sound beautiful immediately, and would get damn near as transparent as a (quality) jumper wire after break in. Really doubt you have that kind of space available, though. And I can't say I would consider that player worth investing in such nice caps.
The Acurus & Aragon amps, which are nicely built, but strangely sensitive to speaker load(can downright squawk with certain speakers), have an input/driver stage design that can be easily thrown off by small dc offsets at the input, so I would be a little hesitant to dc-couple the input. So, I would keep the input caps(the existing little Nichicon is bypassed by the 0.1uf mediocre film cap next to it). But at least you have ample room to put in a cap combo such as exactly what I suggest above.
BTW, my experience with very well-broken-in Wima metallised polypropylenes is that they sound hazy & veiled, not screechy.
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Hi, Have you ever considered using transformer output? It can be done. I am using Lundahl LL1690 and Edcor XSM 600/600. The trick is to get rid of any DC offset into the primary of the transformer. So with a TDA1541A based dac I used a Pedja AD844 based I/V and that has a current source to adjust the offset of the TDA to zero. The other dac is a CS4398 and by it's design has no real offset. Makes for a very simple output stage a single parallel cap across the primary to control high frequency roll off. Maybe not true DC coupling however transformers can sound quite good and I find that they beat most capacitor solutions or extra opamps. For power decoupling I am fond of Nichicon electrolytics. I use lots of Wima caps where necessary. I discovered PPS can be quite nice too. 
great info and thanks again for your time
my gear is
Akai ap100 but looking at Origin Live Aurora MK2
Yamaha rxv1000 for surround and phono temporarily (best phono stage under 1000?)
Marantz cc4000ose 80 bucks in caps and regulators and getting better as we speak
also looking at Cambridge azur 751bd for video and hopefully ref cd sacd dvda
Acurus rl11 upgraded caps soon to be dampened
Acurus a150 new cans and dampened
Dynaudio audience 70 tower as yet untouched
Ixos speaker 9 gauge and interconnects nicest I can afford
Yarbo 10 gauge mains still breaking in
pics here, lol kinda smoky
http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/b415/GLENZWORLD/AUDIO PROJECTS/GLENZGEAR/DSCF3000.jpg
I fully agree that ALL electronics need LOTS of break in and you know what they say about opinions ha.
thanks for your input on caps because experience in this respect I think what matters more than specs (I used to laugh at guys looking for specs on gear "buy it by the pound")
questions for you about the amp
should I leave input and output caps in and just up the quality?
how hard is it to remove that pcb?
it has solder lugs from pcb to speaker terminals
and if i undo screws to transistors on the heat sink will they just pull away?
just redo heat sink paste when installing?
last thing is some mods to speakers
dampening
wire
cap grade
I would really like to hear your opinion on that and I guess I will try some bypassing as you seem pretty adamant it makes a difference, as do others
I will start checking dc offset next anything you recommend for meter other than fluke?($200)
by the by I do like to blow my hair back (loud) and I listen to everything from classical, piano, some opera rock house punk and metal
it all really comes to dollars in the end 50 bucks for caps or 1000 dollars starting for a new player and the 50 bucks for cap for it.
thanks man I appreciate the help and opinion
Glen
Hi, Have you ever considered using transformer output? It can be done. I am using Lundahl LL1690 and Edcor XSM 600/600. The trick is to get rid of any DC offset into the primary of the transformer. So with a TDA1541A based dac I used a Pedja AD844 based I/V and that has a current source to adjust the offset of the TDA to zero. The other dac is a CS4398 and by it's design has no real offset. Makes for a very simple output stage a single parallel cap across the primary to control high frequency roll off. Maybe not true DC coupling however transformers can sound quite good and I find that they beat most capacitor solutions or extra opamps. For power decoupling I am fond of Nichicon electrolytics. I use lots of Wima caps where necessary. I discovered PPS can be quite nice too.
thanks for the info and I have heard of that and direct coupling with transistors neither of witch I understand much but will read more
also heard of guys putting a rheostat across the op amp to adjust bias or offset but not there yet for understanding
1 question I have is does the CS4398 swap with TDA 1549T
and does a parallel cap control dc and or noise?
I would frankly replace your RL11 and RXV1000 with a stock Nakamichi CA-5(the first, NOT the CA-5II, nor the truly awful CA-7). It's typically $250-350 on ebay or canuckaudiomart, and it's a very, very neutral and considerably transparent sounding preamp, both for line & esp. nice phono, and it's built so well that there's nothing to upgrade except the rectifier diodes. I think it's the best SS preamp out there for under a few grand. And frankly, I would also replace the amp entirely with a mod'd Nak PA-5 stasis amp(or any of the four Nak stasis amps), although it should darn well beat the Acurus even stock.
Unless dynaudio used electrolytic caps, you'll make the biggest improvement by using foil inductors. It's a not at all subtle improvement versus ANY other coils.
Although I have three Fluke meters, I have had just as accurate results with "house brand" meters from MCM Electronics and such. Nowadays, a DMM is a DMM, and Fluke has very little advantage.
Exactly right on pulling the Acurus boards. The sink compound will have a lot of stick, so you just need to pop each xstor loose before yanking on the board. And, yes, I would keep it cap input, with mainly just a better film cap/caps than that cheap black one. The other lytic/film cap combo nearby would be the low frequency corner cap from the feedback loop, and needs to stay there to prevent amp from having DC gain, and what's there is about as good as will make an audible difference. Any other lytics on the board will be supply line secondary filtering for the drive/input stages, and can increased in value liberally with potentially excellent effect, and film capping is good there, too.
Wouldn't touch Cambridge with a ten foot pole. If you want great dvd video & excellent sacd sound, along with the BEST reliability, get a Pioneer DV-79avi or DV-59avi for hdmi, or the DV-47ai or DV-45a if hdmi is not needed. These are all really cheap now, having been replaced by Pioneers quite excellent & reliable blu-ray(no sacd) players and by successor DV models that have garbage mechs(i.e., stay away from DV-58avi, 46av, etc.). I've been running a DV-59avi literally 24/7 at my shop for over a year with perfect performance, which replaced, for the sake of hdmi out for led monitor, a DV-45a that was still perfect after 2 years or more of 24/7 play. Of course, if you get a DV-79avi, which comes stock with great Burr-Brown OPA2134 opamps after the PCM1738 dac, it might make you want to abandon the Marantz player upgrades.
Judging by opinions of one or two that I trust, the TDA1549 in your player is pretty certainly better than a CS4398(which I consider quite etched sounding), and there is no easy way to replace one with the other, without designing an adaptor board. There are very few dac chips that match pin for pin with any other, even from same maker.
It would be very complicated and expensive to try to use transformers for decoupling in that unit, and I would sure as heck not choose a Llundahl or, yecch, Edcor. I would choose an appropriate Cinemag(started by the designer of all of Jensen's transf) if I was going to do that sort of thing, but I would not even try it on a voltage out dac like yours, as there would not be any expectation of benefit, versus what could be more easily and cheaply achieved with caps as I suggested. Transformers only make sense on current output dacs, IMO.
Unless dynaudio used electrolytic caps, you'll make the biggest improvement by using foil inductors. It's a not at all subtle improvement versus ANY other coils.
Although I have three Fluke meters, I have had just as accurate results with "house brand" meters from MCM Electronics and such. Nowadays, a DMM is a DMM, and Fluke has very little advantage.
Exactly right on pulling the Acurus boards. The sink compound will have a lot of stick, so you just need to pop each xstor loose before yanking on the board. And, yes, I would keep it cap input, with mainly just a better film cap/caps than that cheap black one. The other lytic/film cap combo nearby would be the low frequency corner cap from the feedback loop, and needs to stay there to prevent amp from having DC gain, and what's there is about as good as will make an audible difference. Any other lytics on the board will be supply line secondary filtering for the drive/input stages, and can increased in value liberally with potentially excellent effect, and film capping is good there, too.
Wouldn't touch Cambridge with a ten foot pole. If you want great dvd video & excellent sacd sound, along with the BEST reliability, get a Pioneer DV-79avi or DV-59avi for hdmi, or the DV-47ai or DV-45a if hdmi is not needed. These are all really cheap now, having been replaced by Pioneers quite excellent & reliable blu-ray(no sacd) players and by successor DV models that have garbage mechs(i.e., stay away from DV-58avi, 46av, etc.). I've been running a DV-59avi literally 24/7 at my shop for over a year with perfect performance, which replaced, for the sake of hdmi out for led monitor, a DV-45a that was still perfect after 2 years or more of 24/7 play. Of course, if you get a DV-79avi, which comes stock with great Burr-Brown OPA2134 opamps after the PCM1738 dac, it might make you want to abandon the Marantz player upgrades.
Judging by opinions of one or two that I trust, the TDA1549 in your player is pretty certainly better than a CS4398(which I consider quite etched sounding), and there is no easy way to replace one with the other, without designing an adaptor board. There are very few dac chips that match pin for pin with any other, even from same maker.
It would be very complicated and expensive to try to use transformers for decoupling in that unit, and I would sure as heck not choose a Llundahl or, yecch, Edcor. I would choose an appropriate Cinemag(started by the designer of all of Jensen's transf) if I was going to do that sort of thing, but I would not even try it on a voltage out dac like yours, as there would not be any expectation of benefit, versus what could be more easily and cheaply achieved with caps as I suggested. Transformers only make sense on current output dacs, IMO.
Hi GLENZWORLD, I would have to agree with stephensank. The TDA1549 isn't going to be easy to directly replace with a CS4398. It sounds best (CS4398) with the Lundahl LL1690 or other good quality transformer. I didn't get good sound from the CS4398 with opamps or capacitors. Your experience may no doubt be different. My experience with the transformers I mentioned including the Edcor is that they work best in a voltage situation. My TDA1541A dac doesn't have enough current output to drive any transformer that I am aware of. That's why I use an AD844 in a Pedja I/V setup. Modified for 4X oversampling. That drives the Edcor with no problems. The Pedja is also no negative feedback and has 150 mA driving capability. Cinemag or Jensens would be an excellent choice, yes better then an Edcor. Edcor's are cheap, behave pretty well but lack shielding and are large in the 2.5 Watt version. The parallel cap is used to adjust the frequency response of the transformer. In a dac situation you want the rolloff to be lower then the transformer is designed to be. I have seen values of 4 to 7 nF used with many different transformers. The best sounding dac of the 1 bit type that I have heard to date is a CS4397 with output transformers. That one benefits from using a 1:2 transformer ratio as the CS4397 doesn't have the output of the 98. I find that the CS4397 sounds closer to a properly applied TDA then anything else I have heard. YMMV.... I have tried many output filter types. Sallen-key is bad. GIC gyrators sound interesting however are hard to build and fussy about opamps and don't always perform as you'd expect. I'm still listening to a 7th order Bessel filter on one of my dac projects. I wanted to hate the transformer approach. After trying it I was surprised in the simplicity and ease of building with it. The clarity and musicality can be outstanding. If you try the transformer approach by all means go with the better transformers. If your budget is tight give the Edcor a try. I'm putting my Edcors in a box to shield them, so far I'm happy with them. Although now I'm curious to try the Cinemags or Jensens. A warning on the Lundahls.... The zoebel in the datsheet is not optional. They can sound very hard edged without that resistor capacitor across the secondary. With the zoebel they work well. A little exotic with the permalloy.... Not to mention the price is in the painful zone. Ouchhhhh! Dave
A warning on the Lundahls.... The zoebel in the datsheet is not optional. They can sound very hard edged without that resistor capacitor across the secondary. With the zoebel they work well. A little exotic with the permalloy.... Not to mention the price is in the painful zone. Ouchhhhh! DaveThe biggest problem with Edcor is that their core materials are terrible. This is most obvious with the ribbon mic trannies, which is my field, but clearly a problem with all units. The Llundahls are just poorly designed, and as expensive as the FAR better Cinemags.
Still, between the internal opamp and the extra bits needed to deal with the dc offset, I don't think it practical or, in the end, better to try transformer output on a 1549, nor on the majority of V-out dacs. My view is that if you can't get rid of feedback in i/v and output stages, what is the point of transformers?
Still, between the internal opamp and the extra bits needed to deal with the dc offset, I don't think it practical or, in the end, better to try transformer output on a 1549, nor on the majority of V-out dacs. My view is that if you can't get rid of feedback in i/v and output stages, what is the point of transformers?
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