so the other day while visiting my parents in the suburbs, i stopped by Circuit City to pick up a cheap dvd player for the office. i specifically wanted something to play MP3/WMA discs (just for background music after all)... so i got a Panasonic DVD-S35S, which lists for $99. i price matched it to $89.99 (no hassle, the register just rang it up for me after i showed him a web site print-out), and it comes with a $20 manufacturer rebate.
i was curious how it sounded (especially since it boasted 24bit/192khz DACs on the box), so i hooked it up to my father's stereo for a quick listen. i was surprised at how clear it sounded, even in my father's system which is not as high-resolution as mine. i popped the cover to see what was inside - pretty standard cheap affair, a switching power supply, disc transport, just one compact circuit board for everything (!), and a lot of empty space. i must say, the level of circuit integration these days is remarkable... i saw just one large Panasonic LSI chip with dolby/dts markings on it. the DAC chip is a Burr-Brown/TI part (i forget the #), and the output op-amp is a JRC part common with the Japanese players... there are probalby some more ICs under the board but i didn't check.
anyway, i just got back home to my own apartment, so i hooked it up to my own rig, and WOW! this thing sounds damn good... maybe even better than my MSB Link DAC and my modified Sony SACD player! ok it's not perfect, it is a little grainy (no doubt the swithing ps doesn't help), and the bass is a little loose, but it has a remarkably clear and open sound... and for $70 after rebate! this is easily the best CD sound on-the-cheap that i've heard, even my girlfriend (a wind player) remarked that the sound was markedly different from my usual setup, and the winds in particular sounded exceptionally good. and let's not forget it'll play DVDs (progressive scan no less) as well as MP3, WMA, and JPEG data discs... quite a bargain! if you're looking for a cheap cd/dvd player for a 2nd system or just something to play around with, i highly recommend you check this cheapie out.
i was curious how it sounded (especially since it boasted 24bit/192khz DACs on the box), so i hooked it up to my father's stereo for a quick listen. i was surprised at how clear it sounded, even in my father's system which is not as high-resolution as mine. i popped the cover to see what was inside - pretty standard cheap affair, a switching power supply, disc transport, just one compact circuit board for everything (!), and a lot of empty space. i must say, the level of circuit integration these days is remarkable... i saw just one large Panasonic LSI chip with dolby/dts markings on it. the DAC chip is a Burr-Brown/TI part (i forget the #), and the output op-amp is a JRC part common with the Japanese players... there are probalby some more ICs under the board but i didn't check.
anyway, i just got back home to my own apartment, so i hooked it up to my own rig, and WOW! this thing sounds damn good... maybe even better than my MSB Link DAC and my modified Sony SACD player! ok it's not perfect, it is a little grainy (no doubt the swithing ps doesn't help), and the bass is a little loose, but it has a remarkably clear and open sound... and for $70 after rebate! this is easily the best CD sound on-the-cheap that i've heard, even my girlfriend (a wind player) remarked that the sound was markedly different from my usual setup, and the winds in particular sounded exceptionally good. and let's not forget it'll play DVDs (progressive scan no less) as well as MP3, WMA, and JPEG data discs... quite a bargain! if you're looking for a cheap cd/dvd player for a 2nd system or just something to play around with, i highly recommend you check this cheapie out.
Well, this is the kind of thing we can't hear enough about!
I was just thinking about what what system to recommend to DIY wannabees and hi fi neophites and the catch is usually the player-something decent usually costs an arm and a leg.
I remember the Headroom guys used to like the Panasonic cheap portable CD players.
Wonder if you'll attack the power supply someday.
I was just thinking about what what system to recommend to DIY wannabees and hi fi neophites and the catch is usually the player-something decent usually costs an arm and a leg.
I remember the Headroom guys used to like the Panasonic cheap portable CD players.
Wonder if you'll attack the power supply someday.
if i'm looking to get someone started on hifi i almost always recommend cheap digital. it just isn't worth it to spend a lot on an "audiophile" player for someone that is just getting their feet wet... in a couple years when their player is "obsolete" and they're out a lot of money, they won't be thanking you.
i have a friend who bought the top-of-the-line Arcam CD player ($2000) a couple years ago for his first real rig. he had never been an audiophile before but he was definitely into gear and had cash to spare. so he got that player, a Krell integrated amp, and Meadowlark speakers, altogether about $8k worth of gear from a big-name rip-off joint here in NYC. he was very disappointed with the sound. i told him it's because his gear sucked, but he would not believe it, til he heard my system of course. then, for x-mas he got a $150 Sony DVD/SACD player, and was shocked when it sounded better than his Arcam. well, not completely better (the Arcam obviously does some things better), but the Sony had so much more life to the sound - the Arcam is so, so dry and uninvolving. it was a very sobering experience for him, poor fellow.
now, this $70 player i just got sounds even better than that Sony he got - it only gets cheaper and better! i'm not sure why it sounds good, obviously the latest-generation DACs keep improving, but i think it may have something to do with the ridiculously high level of integration as well... very short signal paths, very little parasitics. because of the compact layout, the drive transport is connected almost directly to the very tightly laid-out multi-layer PCB - the entire affair is maybe 3" x 4".
i'm going to burn in the player some more, make sure it doesn't break down in the first 30 days (never know with this cheap stuff!), then perhaps tackle some mods... obviously an op-amp swap, some mechanical damping and component upgrades (though there really isn't much to upgrade here!). i would think about a wholesale power supply rework (there's plenty of room in the chassis too, though it is rather thin) except i always wonder which player is worth the trouble to mod... i was just about to tackle a wholesale mod of my Sony SACD player until this beauty came along! i guess i'll have to pull the trigger sometime though...
i have a friend who bought the top-of-the-line Arcam CD player ($2000) a couple years ago for his first real rig. he had never been an audiophile before but he was definitely into gear and had cash to spare. so he got that player, a Krell integrated amp, and Meadowlark speakers, altogether about $8k worth of gear from a big-name rip-off joint here in NYC. he was very disappointed with the sound. i told him it's because his gear sucked, but he would not believe it, til he heard my system of course.
then, for x-mas he got a $150 Sony DVD/SACD player, and was shocked when it sounded better than his Arcam. well, not completely better (the Arcam obviously does some things better), but the Sony had so much more life to the sound - the Arcam is so, so dry and uninvolving. it was a very sobering experience for him, poor fellow. now, this $70 player i just got sounds even better than that Sony he got - it only gets cheaper and better! i'm not sure why it sounds good, obviously the latest-generation DACs keep improving, but i think it may have something to do with the ridiculously high level of integration as well... very short signal paths, very little parasitics. because of the compact layout, the drive transport is connected almost directly to the very tightly laid-out multi-layer PCB - the entire affair is maybe 3" x 4".
i'm going to burn in the player some more, make sure it doesn't break down in the first 30 days (never know with this cheap stuff!), then perhaps tackle some mods... obviously an op-amp swap, some mechanical damping and component upgrades (though there really isn't much to upgrade here!). i would think about a wholesale power supply rework (there's plenty of room in the chassis too, though it is rather thin) except i always wonder which player is worth the trouble to mod... i was just about to tackle a wholesale mod of my Sony SACD player until this beauty came along! i guess i'll have to pull the trigger sometime though...
p.s. some early morning listening to some different material confirms that i wasn't totally whacko last night when i thought this player sounded good - it really does! if you're used to a "high-end" player it'll take some adjusting to its weaknesses (some grain, response from top to bottom a little uneven, imaging/soundstaing not really stellar) but relax and listen to the music and you'll be startled at how much information this thing can deliver. last night it was some Rimsky-Korsakov Scheherezade and Holst Planets that impressed, this morning some pop music from New Zealand is sounding mighty good... while the female vocals are not as meaty and palpable as my usual setup, the background guitar strumming has a very realistic "twang" and resonance to it that i don't normally hear from this CD... bass pitch and tunefulness are also really good, though it is a little loose and bloated (damn capacitor coupling). still, very promising! i also left it in repeat overnight and so far it hasnt' broken down, also a good sign.
Hey,
I can attest to the qulaity of the new round of Panasonic players!
I bought an F-85 (5disc, progressive scan, dvd, cd, mp3, wma, and DVD-Audio
). I had planned to buy the old CP-72 changer, but they disappeared off the face of teh earth. One day, roaming around circuit city, i found the F-85... the manager was putting the first unit out on the floor. I saw the price, choked, looked again, asked the manager if it was the correct price, and he checked the computer. All was well... for $149. Unbeleivable. For that price, I decided its worth a shot... and even if its not the best thing in the world, it was still a fair deal.
First thing I did when I got home was take it out of the box, and grab a screw-driver. My girlfriend and roommate thought I was nuts. I agreed, and kept unscrewing. For those not accustomed to changers, don't make this player your first attempt at disassembly. Tip: mark the gear fingers for the tray with a felt marker to check the placement when putting the unit back to gether. The locking mechanism on the gears is actually pretty nifty, IMO... another story though
Just as dorkus says, all the processing is done on one little multi-layer PCB. I swapped out the opamps for some AD8620's on the 6-channel outputs, pulled the muting transistors, and removed the DC blocking caps. Oh, and the mutl-channel Burr Brown DAC is a PCM1607K... that's right - a "K" series DAC. I was frickin' impressed! Also of note, Panasonic used ELNA caps for decoupling in the stock arrangement!
The Pansasonic LSI chip is marked "MN2DS0002AP1" in my F-85. I also recently disassembled my RP-62, and it also has a remarkably similar inside. The DAC's in my RP-62 is an ADV7199...which cross-references to the Analog DAC8426 quad 8 bit DAC chip. They must integrate this into two 16 bit DACs somehow... haven't read through the spec sheets on it yet, but don't much care about this my RP-62 as it is strictly used for its video performance with the digital audio output.
Anyhoo, just thought I'd throw in my $0.02...
Happy shopping to all!
By the way - the sound is unbelievable. I love DVD-A!!! STP, Creep - GREAT album and track! I can't get enought of DVD-A now...
For reference, I've got Scan Speak 9500 tweeters, Vifa PL14 mid, Scan Speak 10" woofers, LEAP designed Xover, and all Crescendo caps. Powered by Parasound amp and Adcom GTP-555 preamp (definetly the weakest link in the chain right now, but that's the next project... )
I can attest to the qulaity of the new round of Panasonic players!
I bought an F-85 (5disc, progressive scan, dvd, cd, mp3, wma, and DVD-Audio
). I had planned to buy the old CP-72 changer, but they disappeared off the face of teh earth. One day, roaming around circuit city, i found the F-85... the manager was putting the first unit out on the floor. I saw the price, choked, looked again, asked the manager if it was the correct price, and he checked the computer. All was well... for $149. Unbeleivable. For that price, I decided its worth a shot... and even if its not the best thing in the world, it was still a fair deal. First thing I did when I got home was take it out of the box, and grab a screw-driver. My girlfriend and roommate thought I was nuts. I agreed, and kept unscrewing. For those not accustomed to changers, don't make this player your first attempt at disassembly. Tip: mark the gear fingers for the tray with a felt marker to check the placement when putting the unit back to gether. The locking mechanism on the gears is actually pretty nifty, IMO... another story though
Just as dorkus says, all the processing is done on one little multi-layer PCB. I swapped out the opamps for some AD8620's on the 6-channel outputs, pulled the muting transistors, and removed the DC blocking caps. Oh, and the mutl-channel Burr Brown DAC is a PCM1607K... that's right - a "K" series DAC. I was frickin' impressed! Also of note, Panasonic used ELNA caps for decoupling in the stock arrangement!
The Pansasonic LSI chip is marked "MN2DS0002AP1" in my F-85. I also recently disassembled my RP-62, and it also has a remarkably similar inside. The DAC's in my RP-62 is an ADV7199...which cross-references to the Analog DAC8426 quad 8 bit DAC chip. They must integrate this into two 16 bit DACs somehow... haven't read through the spec sheets on it yet, but don't much care about this my RP-62 as it is strictly used for its video performance with the digital audio output.
Anyhoo, just thought I'd throw in my $0.02...
Happy shopping to all!
By the way - the sound is unbelievable. I love DVD-A!!! STP, Creep - GREAT album and track! I can't get enought of DVD-A now...
For reference, I've got Scan Speak 9500 tweeters, Vifa PL14 mid, Scan Speak 10" woofers, LEAP designed Xover, and all Crescendo caps. Powered by Parasound amp and Adcom GTP-555 preamp (definetly the weakest link in the chain right now, but that's the next project...
)
i work at a store that carries that player, and i sell them like its going out of style. if you get a chance, hook it up to a tv and check its image quality. the progressive scan is excellent at the price, or just about any entry level price.
they have the 55s model too, which plays dvd-audio at only $129 - $30 rebate.
they have the 55s model too, which plays dvd-audio at only $129 - $30 rebate.
the progressive video on the S35 is not bad at all. not sure if i prefer it to the interlaced output of my Sony S7700 (upconverted by my Sony HDTV), and not quite as good as the Denon DVD-1600, but not bad at all.
Tief, you may want to check the DC output w/o the blocking caps there. due to the output stage opamp configuration there may be some very significant DC offset w/o them. more on this later.
Tief, you may want to check the DC output w/o the blocking caps there. due to the output stage opamp configuration there may be some very significant DC offset w/o them. more on this later.
some more info on the player, and some mods...
the DAC is a BB/TI PCM1752K, which is not listed on the TI site... closest thing i could find that was 24/192 in same package (16SSOP) was the PCM1742, at least the pin-out matches up. the stock output opamp was a JRC 4585. clock signals are derived from a crystal oscillator feeding a NPC SM8706C divider/generator
interestingly, the output opamp is operated in inverting mode. at first i was impressed with panasonic's care here - maybe they believe inverting mode sounds better! as it turns out however, this is just a byproduct of one of the suggested circuit configurations for the DAC. from the PCM1742 datasheet, it shows that the output is DC biased by about 1/2 Vcc, and you can source this bias voltage from a pin labelled Vcom. thus you can use Vcom to feed the noninverting input of an opamp and get a zero-bias output (see attached graphic below). however, in practice i still measured a strong DC bias before the coupling caps - about 2.5V per channel. so AC coupling is still required.
most of the stock caps in the audio section are decent-looking Nichicon, at first i thought they were Gold or Muse grade due to the gold sleeve but on closer inspection they are FW grade, which are a lower-grade miniaturized version of FG (the lowest grade Muse). on the plus side, FW is still considered an "audio-grade" capacitor by Nichicon, so they are bound to be better than the ubiquitious cheapie Nichicons in the navy blue sleeves...
now for mods...
first thing was to replace opamp of course... AD8260 is an obvious candidate, since it's dual and sounds good. i don't consider it a "drop-in" replacement as some do however, as it doesn't always sound good in every circuit... it tends to be a little thinner and more analytical than the cheaper, lower-speed chips, and some care must be taken with power supply decoupling and so forth. but in this case it seemed to work out ok.
next were the caps. bear in mind i had to work with what i have on-hand (a mixed batch of smaller Nichicon Muse, Panasonic HFQ and FC, some leftover Elna Cerafines and Silmics, and a couple Black Gates) so a lot of substitutions are convenient rather than ideal. initially i started with just the opamp swap and changing the opamp supply decoupling from 220uF 25V FW to 100uF 35V Elna Cerafines. wasn't happy with the reduced storage, but it would have to do for now. i left in the stock output caps. the sound was improved, crisper, more detailed and open, but with a bit of thinning out as i was expecting with the AD8620. actually this could have just been the Cerafines needing break-in, as 48 hours later it was sounding better.
after those promising results, i targetted some more caps. the 10uF decoupling Vcom/opamp + input in the diagram below was a 220uF 25V FW, the value chosen by panasonic merely for convenience. a Black Gate would have been warranted in this critical position, but i settled for a 47uF 35V Cerafine. a small 22uF on DAC Vdd was replaced with 100uF 10V Pana HFQ. i augmented a 1000uF 6.3V on DAC Vcc with a 10uF 50V Pana FC. two low-grade decoupling caps on the digital side were replaced with 120uF 25V HFQ. most critically, the 47uF polarized output caps were replaced with 10uF 50V Black Gate N. i did not remove muting transistors yet, as the player has EnergyStar features that will power it down automatically and potentially cause a nasty transient when i'm not looking.
i'm about to put the machine back together and fire it up in a minute, i'll report back how it all sounds now.
the DAC is a BB/TI PCM1752K, which is not listed on the TI site... closest thing i could find that was 24/192 in same package (16SSOP) was the PCM1742, at least the pin-out matches up. the stock output opamp was a JRC 4585. clock signals are derived from a crystal oscillator feeding a NPC SM8706C divider/generator
interestingly, the output opamp is operated in inverting mode. at first i was impressed with panasonic's care here - maybe they believe inverting mode sounds better! as it turns out however, this is just a byproduct of one of the suggested circuit configurations for the DAC. from the PCM1742 datasheet, it shows that the output is DC biased by about 1/2 Vcc, and you can source this bias voltage from a pin labelled Vcom. thus you can use Vcom to feed the noninverting input of an opamp and get a zero-bias output (see attached graphic below). however, in practice i still measured a strong DC bias before the coupling caps - about 2.5V per channel. so AC coupling is still required.
most of the stock caps in the audio section are decent-looking Nichicon, at first i thought they were Gold or Muse grade due to the gold sleeve but on closer inspection they are FW grade, which are a lower-grade miniaturized version of FG (the lowest grade Muse). on the plus side, FW is still considered an "audio-grade" capacitor by Nichicon, so they are bound to be better than the ubiquitious cheapie Nichicons in the navy blue sleeves...
now for mods...
first thing was to replace opamp of course... AD8260 is an obvious candidate, since it's dual and sounds good. i don't consider it a "drop-in" replacement as some do however, as it doesn't always sound good in every circuit... it tends to be a little thinner and more analytical than the cheaper, lower-speed chips, and some care must be taken with power supply decoupling and so forth. but in this case it seemed to work out ok.
next were the caps. bear in mind i had to work with what i have on-hand (a mixed batch of smaller Nichicon Muse, Panasonic HFQ and FC, some leftover Elna Cerafines and Silmics, and a couple Black Gates) so a lot of substitutions are convenient rather than ideal. initially i started with just the opamp swap and changing the opamp supply decoupling from 220uF 25V FW to 100uF 35V Elna Cerafines. wasn't happy with the reduced storage, but it would have to do for now. i left in the stock output caps. the sound was improved, crisper, more detailed and open, but with a bit of thinning out as i was expecting with the AD8620. actually this could have just been the Cerafines needing break-in, as 48 hours later it was sounding better.
after those promising results, i targetted some more caps. the 10uF decoupling Vcom/opamp + input in the diagram below was a 220uF 25V FW, the value chosen by panasonic merely for convenience. a Black Gate would have been warranted in this critical position, but i settled for a 47uF 35V Cerafine. a small 22uF on DAC Vdd was replaced with 100uF 10V Pana HFQ. i augmented a 1000uF 6.3V on DAC Vcc with a 10uF 50V Pana FC. two low-grade decoupling caps on the digital side were replaced with 120uF 25V HFQ. most critically, the 47uF polarized output caps were replaced with 10uF 50V Black Gate N. i did not remove muting transistors yet, as the player has EnergyStar features that will power it down automatically and potentially cause a nasty transient when i'm not looking.
i'm about to put the machine back together and fire it up in a minute, i'll report back how it all sounds now.
dorkus,
I don't know what the heck I was thinking when referring to that ADV chip as the audio DAC... you'd think the "v" would have clued me in... Anyhow, I just went through my pictures again, and there is a little BB DAC hiding in the corner of my RP-62 PCB... a PCM1742. Makes sense, given yours uses the PCM1752.
The stock opamps in the F-85 are JRC4580's. After modding my Sony NC-650V DVD/SACD player I was sold on removing the muting transistors. (There was a very noticeable improvement in SQ). Fortunately, my roommate is kind of scared of my equipment, so he seldomly even touches it. I am very carefull about turning the unit on and off with the volume knob down, and fortunately, I haven't had any severe pops, YET...
As you mentioned, there is quite a bit of DC offset at the output of the DACs. I found the datasheet for the PCM1606 (I'm assuming this is the precursor to my PCM1607). In the datasheet, it says ...
In response to your comments on the AD8620 (not AD8260)...
Circuit implementation has a lot to do with it, but I think the quality and choice of passive components has more to do with the sound quality (IMO). I tend to prefer the "detailed" sound of the AD8620... I never understood the term "analytical" for describing sound. But from my experience in building loudspeakers, I have come to find that there are two types of people. Those who like a "smooth" (dull by my standards) midrange and those who like it very detailed. I'm the latter. My guess is that those who don't like things so detailed thing that something that is detailed is "analytical." I'm NOT picking on or trying to defile those people... its just my perception - and merely a guess. Audio is completely subjective, so like whatever you like!!
In any case, I do get quite a bit of cone movement in my speakers when I adjust the volume knob while playing discs through the F-85 (I have a Parasound amp -> which is DC coupled... John Curl is the man !!!). Fortunately, the Adcom preamp must have some ac coupling in it... after I've adjusted the volume and stopped moving the pot, my cones slowly go back to center (about half a second). I need to fix this problem, but since I'm the only one that uses the analog section of the player, I'm not too concerned for now. If I move the volume knob slowly and smoothly, the cones don't move much at all (barely visible). Most likely, I will be adding a DC-servo type amplfier to the output section of the F-85 so I don't have to use DC blocking caps. I really don't like them. I prefer DC coupling equipment... despite its negative aspects. I haven't heard a typical decoupling cap that I don't hear... (if that makes any sense). I am 99% certain this is cause of the "graininess" in sound of my system - the only thing left is the Adcom preamp. I'd rip it apart and see what could be done to upgrade it, but its on loan from a friend. There are a few Panasonic film types that I have found that work well (sound good to me) for filtering, but they don't come in big enough values to use for DC blocking.
To make note... it appears that Panasonic uses the same PCB's for the multichannel analog and just stereo output players. There is a corresponding place for the multichannel DAC right next to the PCM1742 on my RP-62 board and likewise for a stereo DAC next to the PCM1607 in my F-85. Perhaps one could by the cheaper "stereo" player and add the correct multichannel DAC to the blank pads on the PCB. I suppose the ROM would have to be updated as well though... hmmm... gets the gears turning though...
The datasheet for the PCM1606 has the same diagram as you show in the last post.
OK, I think that's all I had to say. I'm sure I'll think of something later, though
TTFN...
I don't know what the heck I was thinking when referring to that ADV chip as the audio DAC... you'd think the "v" would have clued me in... Anyhow, I just went through my pictures again, and there is a little BB DAC hiding in the corner of my RP-62 PCB... a PCM1742. Makes sense, given yours uses the PCM1752.
The stock opamps in the F-85 are JRC4580's. After modding my Sony NC-650V DVD/SACD player I was sold on removing the muting transistors. (There was a very noticeable improvement in SQ). Fortunately, my roommate is kind of scared of my equipment, so he seldomly even touches it. I am very carefull about turning the unit on and off with the volume knob down, and fortunately, I haven't had any severe pops, YET...
As you mentioned, there is quite a bit of DC offset at the output of the DACs. I found the datasheet for the PCM1606 (I'm assuming this is the precursor to my PCM1607). In the datasheet, it says ...
This would lead me to believe it has about 2.5V offset.
In response to your comments on the AD8620 (not AD8260)...
Circuit implementation has a lot to do with it, but I think the quality and choice of passive components has more to do with the sound quality (IMO). I tend to prefer the "detailed" sound of the AD8620... I never understood the term "analytical" for describing sound. But from my experience in building loudspeakers, I have come to find that there are two types of people. Those who like a "smooth" (dull by my standards) midrange and those who like it very detailed. I'm the latter. My guess is that those who don't like things so detailed thing that something that is detailed is "analytical." I'm NOT picking on or trying to defile those people... its just my perception - and merely a guess. Audio is completely subjective, so like whatever you like!!
In any case, I do get quite a bit of cone movement in my speakers when I adjust the volume knob while playing discs through the F-85 (I have a Parasound amp -> which is DC coupled... John Curl is the man
!!!). Fortunately, the Adcom preamp must have some ac coupling in it... after I've adjusted the volume and stopped moving the pot, my cones slowly go back to center (about half a second). I need to fix this problem, but since I'm the only one that uses the analog section of the player, I'm not too concerned for now. If I move the volume knob slowly and smoothly, the cones don't move much at all (barely visible). Most likely, I will be adding a DC-servo type amplfier to the output section of the F-85 so I don't have to use DC blocking caps. I really don't like them. I prefer DC coupling equipment... despite its negative aspects. I haven't heard a typical decoupling cap that I don't hear... (if that makes any sense). I am 99% certain this is cause of the "graininess" in sound of my system - the only thing left is the Adcom preamp. I'd rip it apart and see what could be done to upgrade it, but its on loan from a friend. There are a few Panasonic film types that I have found that work well (sound good to me) for filtering, but they don't come in big enough values to use for DC blocking.To make note... it appears that Panasonic uses the same PCB's for the multichannel analog and just stereo output players. There is a corresponding place for the multichannel DAC right next to the PCM1742 on my RP-62 board and likewise for a stereo DAC next to the PCM1607 in my F-85. Perhaps one could by the cheaper "stereo" player and add the correct multichannel DAC to the blank pads on the PCB. I suppose the ROM would have to be updated as well though... hmmm... gets the gears turning though...
The datasheet for the PCM1606 has the same diagram as you show in the last post.
OK, I think that's all I had to say. I'm sure I'll think of something later, though
TTFN...
be careful with the DC offset, if your cones are definitely moving then you are causing the voicecoils to heat up, which is detrimental to the life of the speaker. i imagine the reason it settles down after a second or so is the parasound's DC servo time constant is on the order of that amount of time, but you should still not push it. if your cd player is putting out anything more than 100mV it really ought to be blocked.
coupling caps can actually sound pretty good, and DC Servos have a sonic signature of their own. which one sounds "better" is a matter of implementation and personal taste - many people here actually prefer a cap to a servo. i do not think the "graininess" in your system is a coupling cap, even if it was the stock one in the panasonic - after playing around, i realized that it actually sounded pretty good! if anything, it's that Adcom preamp. i'm not sure what model it is, but in my experience most mid-fi preamps like Adcom really stink sonically. grainy, dry, uninvolving... get rid of it! you're better off with just a passive volume pot, really.
i think the AD8620 is a good opamp, but in some installations it can sound dry and etched. it's the closest thing to a drop-in replacement i've found, but even it is not a 100% bet. it's a checks and balances thing, a matter of context, but in general i do find it sounds pretty good.
coupling caps can actually sound pretty good, and DC Servos have a sonic signature of their own. which one sounds "better" is a matter of implementation and personal taste - many people here actually prefer a cap to a servo. i do not think the "graininess" in your system is a coupling cap, even if it was the stock one in the panasonic - after playing around, i realized that it actually sounded pretty good! if anything, it's that Adcom preamp. i'm not sure what model it is, but in my experience most mid-fi preamps like Adcom really stink sonically. grainy, dry, uninvolving... get rid of it! you're better off with just a passive volume pot, really.
i think the AD8620 is a good opamp, but in some installations it can sound dry and etched. it's the closest thing to a drop-in replacement i've found, but even it is not a 100% bet. it's a checks and balances thing, a matter of context, but in general i do find it sounds pretty good.
The adcom is a GTP-555. i use it because i need some source for switching as a preamp. i have a denon avr-2700 reciever that i use for HT that runs the main outputs into one of the inputs on the adcom. the denon actually has a significantly "smoother" sound to it in the preamp section, but the adcom is remarkably more "open" in soundstage. It's a tradeoff, but i guess i prefer the depth and openness. As i said, the adcom is the next thing to go/change in my system. I'm looking at doing my own preamp design, something similar to the project on Elliot's Sound Pages perhaps.
With regard to the sound quality of DC servos, I don't really know, because I haven't played with them much yet. But, the only way to know is to experiment and find out for myself. In the interum, I will most likely add coupling caps to the output, but I may just pony up and spend $50 on paralleling a bunch of film caps. Then again, maybe I'll be my normal cheap self and just pull a bunch of cheapies out of my stash of parts.
With regard to the sound quality of DC servos, I don't really know, because I haven't played with them much yet. But, the only way to know is to experiment and find out for myself. In the interum, I will most likely add coupling caps to the output, but I may just pony up and spend $50 on paralleling a bunch of film caps. Then again, maybe I'll be my normal cheap self and just pull a bunch of cheapies out of my stash of parts.
oh, my father has one of those Adcom 555's (series II) at home. it's pretty bad, been thinking of replacing it for him for years, just haven't gotten around to it. denon stuff tends to sound smooth, but yeah it is veiled.
you may want to try black gates before you spend a lot of money on pricey film caps. they take an eternity to break in but can sound pretty good in some circuits/systems.
you may want to try black gates before you spend a lot of money on pricey film caps. they take an eternity to break in but can sound pretty good in some circuits/systems.
it's good. some of the initial euphoria wore off so i'm not raving about it as much now, but it's stilll a very solid, good-sounding player. pretty decent for DVDs too. i think my modified Sony SCD-C222ES does some things better still, most noticably less grain (doesn't have a noisy switching power supply like the panasonic). the cheapie panasonic is also a little lumpy in response, i think the Sony is more neutral. but still very enjoyable. i heartily recommend it to all my friends.
i'm not so impressed with the mods, your mileage will vary but i think it sounds just fine stock. my coworkers and i use a stock player in the office and it sounds great.
i'm not so impressed with the mods, your mileage will vary but i think it sounds just fine stock. my coworkers and i use a stock player in the office and it sounds great.
I bought my Panasonic F-85 right after they came out without even listening to it first. I only paid $120 for it and I planned on using it to replace my older Panasonic DVD player (which is now living with my wife's parents) and a POS Harman/Kardon 5-disk CD changer. I got the CD changer for free, so I wasn't to bummed out when it died the week after the warranty expired.
Anyway, I ran the 2-channell stereo out to the CD input on my receiver (don't mock, I like home theater) and I ran the 5.1 outputs to the DVD inputs on my receiver. I tried both my receiver's DAC's and the Panasonic's DAC's and settled on the Panasonic's. I was used to the sound of my receiver doing all the Dolby Digital and DTS decoding but when I let the Panasonic do the job, I was truly amazed. Plus, as a bonus, this thing does DVD-Audio! I was really impressed how much the mid-range opened up. I was able to hear detail in familiar material that I had never heard before. The bass also seemed to tighten up quite a bit. Another thing that is kind of neat, (although some people may disagree) is the upsampling feature. On many rock CD's that were recorded in the late 70's to early 90's the high end is somewhat lacking. The upsampling really seems to help clean up the high-end detail from some of these CD's. The only thing I wish it did was SACD. We have to get a Pioneer to do that. Oh well, maybe in a year or two.
Cheers,
Zach
Anyway, I ran the 2-channell stereo out to the CD input on my receiver (don't mock, I like home theater) and I ran the 5.1 outputs to the DVD inputs on my receiver. I tried both my receiver's DAC's and the Panasonic's DAC's and settled on the Panasonic's. I was used to the sound of my receiver doing all the Dolby Digital and DTS decoding but when I let the Panasonic do the job, I was truly amazed. Plus, as a bonus, this thing does DVD-Audio! I was really impressed how much the mid-range opened up. I was able to hear detail in familiar material that I had never heard before. The bass also seemed to tighten up quite a bit. Another thing that is kind of neat, (although some people may disagree) is the upsampling feature. On many rock CD's that were recorded in the late 70's to early 90's the high end is somewhat lacking. The upsampling really seems to help clean up the high-end detail from some of these CD's. The only thing I wish it did was SACD. We have to get a Pioneer to do that. Oh well, maybe in a year or two.Cheers,
Zach
Hmm, Medowlark, Krell, arcam? Must have been Sound By Singer.....dorkus said:
I cant stand the owner. I've talked to him a couple times, and I dont think I've met much more of an arrogant idiot in my life.
Now the owner of Innovative Audio, while Long winded, and cocky, to me at least only speaks more from what he knows, and likes. Thats why I amost took a job he offered.
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