Hi Digi listeners,
I want to understand more about one effect: phase inverted records.
Before I got a DAC with inverting possibility in ´96 I found the sound of many CD´s "strange". Somehow pulled wide, missing depth of soundstage, dynamically limited and a bit of aggressive. With having this INV-button I immediately found the explanation, the CD´s are just inverted. Checking which CD´s are inverted (from view of European devices) I found astonished, that all US-CD´s and most of the Japan-CD´s are inverted, all the others are not.
I communicated it over the years with many guys who found exactly the same effect. Lucky to have this INV-button, but what is the reason???? The only explanation could be that in US an other standard for CD´s phase is valid. Who could please explain the truth about! What are your experiences?
Regards
Klaus
I want to understand more about one effect: phase inverted records.
Before I got a DAC with inverting possibility in ´96 I found the sound of many CD´s "strange". Somehow pulled wide, missing depth of soundstage, dynamically limited and a bit of aggressive. With having this INV-button I immediately found the explanation, the CD´s are just inverted. Checking which CD´s are inverted (from view of European devices) I found astonished, that all US-CD´s and most of the Japan-CD´s are inverted, all the others are not.
I communicated it over the years with many guys who found exactly the same effect. Lucky to have this INV-button, but what is the reason???? The only explanation could be that in US an other standard for CD´s phase is valid. Who could please explain the truth about! What are your experiences?
Regards
Klaus
Absolute or one channel?
So your saying that it’s the absolute phase, both channels that are inverted, or is it that one channel is inverted?
It could be that for years most US CD's were mastered on Sony PCM 1630 Equipment with just a smattering of Digidesign and Sonic Solutions stuff out there.
In Europe I think the old standard was the Harmonia Mundi platform.
It wouldn’t strike me as too unlikely that originally one or two of the workstation based buys could have followed the lead of someone else and gotten absolute phase topsy-tervy. I would be supposed if this situation would have existed too long though.
Can you find any time correlation of when the recordings were made to when the effect takes place? Is it the case with today’s recordings too?
So your saying that it’s the absolute phase, both channels that are inverted, or is it that one channel is inverted?
It could be that for years most US CD's were mastered on Sony PCM 1630 Equipment with just a smattering of Digidesign and Sonic Solutions stuff out there.
In Europe I think the old standard was the Harmonia Mundi platform.
It wouldn’t strike me as too unlikely that originally one or two of the workstation based buys could have followed the lead of someone else and gotten absolute phase topsy-tervy. I would be supposed if this situation would have existed too long though.
Can you find any time correlation of when the recordings were made to when the effect takes place? Is it the case with today’s recordings too?
Hi Klaus,
I wish I had a phase inverter switch to play with :-(
Apparently a lot of equipment reverses absolute polarity too, not just the recording. So, it is feasible you have have it the other way round, and are switching it one way and not the other! Irrelevant maybe, but interesting.
Apparently, some tracks (I don't mean cd tracks) can be recorded in one phase and some another, so it will bever be fully 'right' on some recordings. According to Robert Harley (iirc) in 'The Ultimate Guide to High End Audio' changing absolute phase only makes a small difference to SQ but is most significant in accuracy of transients like drum hits - iirc - I will look later when I'm at home
I reckon it is lack of universal standards and recording engineers generally not giving a to55, well maybe.
Anyone know how to easily add a phase-change function in say, a cd player, with a switch at the back maybe?
This is an interesting topic, could be one more reason not all my CDs sound so great...
Someone here must know a lot more about this than I do, please enlighten us!
-Simon
I wish I had a phase inverter switch to play with :-(
Apparently a lot of equipment reverses absolute polarity too, not just the recording. So, it is feasible you have have it the other way round, and are switching it one way and not the other! Irrelevant maybe, but interesting.
Apparently, some tracks (I don't mean cd tracks) can be recorded in one phase and some another, so it will bever be fully 'right' on some recordings. According to Robert Harley (iirc) in 'The Ultimate Guide to High End Audio' changing absolute phase only makes a small difference to SQ but is most significant in accuracy of transients like drum hits - iirc - I will look later when I'm at home
I reckon it is lack of universal standards and recording engineers generally not giving a to55, well maybe.
Anyone know how to easily add a phase-change function in say, a cd player, with a switch at the back maybe?
This is an interesting topic, could be one more reason not all my CDs sound so great...
Someone here must know a lot more about this than I do, please enlighten us!
-Simon
One channel inverted.
I have come across some CD compilations from the Far East with the phase on one channel inverted. 80% of the tracks were OK.
As Klaus said the image seems to be pulled wide and it sounds very thin as the bass gets lost due to phase inversion in one channel. Those who don't know the effect can invert the connection on one speaker to see what it is like.
Both channels inverted together is very different. It does not sound as bad -- probably just a bit different from normal phase! Many people have their own opinions on the audibility of absolute phase inversion.
Cheers.
I have come across some CD compilations from the Far East with the phase on one channel inverted. 80% of the tracks were OK.
As Klaus said the image seems to be pulled wide and it sounds very thin as the bass gets lost due to phase inversion in one channel. Those who don't know the effect can invert the connection on one speaker to see what it is like.
Both channels inverted together is very different. It does not sound as bad -- probably just a bit different from normal phase! Many people have their own opinions on the audibility of absolute phase inversion.
Cheers.
Absloultly anlalogue...
Absolute phase can be quite easy to invert in the analogue domain. Transformers, op amps, and sometimes reversing tip and sleeve will all do the trick depending on application, taste, and sensibility.
Did you catch my above ponderings about the mastering euipment used?
Absolute phase can be quite easy to invert in the analogue domain. Transformers, op amps, and sometimes reversing tip and sleeve will all do the trick depending on application, taste, and sensibility.
Did you catch my above ponderings about the mastering euipment used?
Hypothetical difference between continents in 80/90's
I think my thoughts about mastering equipment is that there was a predominant difference in equipment and manufactures being use to master CD's in the 80's and early 90's.
Japan and US, were mostly Sony.
Europe was (I think) mostly Harmonia Mundi.
It would not surprise me that in these early days of the art, that a manufacture such as (hypothetically) Sony, might have gotten the ab-phase issue a little bit wrong. And yes I also think it likely that may have taken a bit before the exact texture of the emperors clothing was noticed while everyone was grappling with this new medium. (Hypothetically of course)
I think my thoughts about mastering equipment is that there was a predominant difference in equipment and manufactures being use to master CD's in the 80's and early 90's.
Japan and US, were mostly Sony.
Europe was (I think) mostly Harmonia Mundi.
It would not surprise me that in these early days of the art, that a manufacture such as (hypothetically) Sony, might have gotten the ab-phase issue a little bit wrong. And yes I also think it likely that may have taken a bit before the exact texture of the emperors clothing was noticed while everyone was grappling with this new medium. (Hypothetically of course)
Getting the absolute phase wrong is quite easy. Only swapping the leads of the microphones does it...
I've heard that in some records the instruments have different polarities, even in one track!
I have a Denon DA-500 with a polarity switch. IMHO absolute polarity is audible, though the difference is not extremely large. I'll try to get a wave/mp3 player with a polarity setting so I can compare quicker and easier.
Fedde
I've heard that in some records the instruments have different polarities, even in one track!
I have a Denon DA-500 with a polarity switch. IMHO absolute polarity is audible, though the difference is not extremely large. I'll try to get a wave/mp3 player with a polarity setting so I can compare quicker and easier.
Fedde
not just one channel inverted.
So your saying that it’s the absolute phase, both channels that are inverted, or is it that one channel is inverted?
--- no, both! One channel inverted disturbs everything. I mean absolute phase. Easy to be tested by changing polarity at the speaker terminals. A bass drum kick e.g. brings speaker to suck in - not move out.
Can you find any time correlation of when the recordings were made to when the effect takes place? Is it the case with today’s recordings too?
--- all CD´s I know have this effect. I recorded some hundred jazz CDs to DAT borrowed from the public library (also lending cultural valuable things like JAZZ CDs!!!). CDs produced from early 80th until today containing music from late 20th until today. Even on bad sonically quality recording copies from late 20th LPs the "right" phase was easily to be recognized. And the sound master brought it "inverted" onto the disc. So it could really be a kind of unofficial standard - different between US and Europe caused by standard equipment.
I wish I had a phase inverter switch to play with :-(
--- change speaker cable polarity, but the terminals will suffer...
Apparently a lot of equipment reverses absolute polarity too, not just the recording. So, it is feasible you have have it the other way round, and are switching it one way and not the other! Irrelevant maybe, but interesting.
--- it is known that many US brands had or still have (?) different pinouts on XLR, due to this?! And some product have absolute phase mistakes caused by design. Seems like the designers sometimes do not care about.
Apparently, some tracks (I don't mean cd tracks) can be recorded in one phase and some another, so it will bever be fully 'right' on some recordings.
--- I found just a view CD´s were the phases are mixed between tracks. Sound masters have not harmonized. Specially on samplers or where some records are copied together on one CD.
According to Robert Harley (iirc) in 'The Ultimate Guide to High End Audio' changing absolute phase only makes a small difference to SQ but is most significant in accuracy of transients like drum hits - iirc - I will look later when I'm at home
--- I can absolutely confirm it in this way. A drum kick can immediately by heard as "wrong", even on medium equipment. But on high end equipment and specially "impulse correct speakers" even the small difference can be realized. Everything sounds somehow a bit "unnormal". Fokus is lost. Many sounds become aggressive. Piano e.g. becomes a bit of keyboard. Check it out!
Anyone know how to easily add a phase-change function in say, a cd player, with a switch at the back maybe?
--- almost all DAC IC´s have pins to be laid to 0V or 5V to set the absolute phase. Necessary for full symmetrical DACs. So add this switch and done. By the way - also you frequently can adjust in the same way the filter type at the Digifilter IC.
This is an interesting topic, could be one more reason not all my CDs sound so great...
--- please test it. I really was shocked! So many CDs are perfect – and were so terrible before! Anecdote here from Europe: Chesky CDs are great (sonically wise), but inverted. So many freaks check out there hyper end equipment with their CDs and discuss about "last mistakes" of this and that cable and equipment. In one occasion I just changed the absolute phase and all failures were gone – "why have you never used this button before…".
So your saying that it’s the absolute phase, both channels that are inverted, or is it that one channel is inverted?
--- no, both! One channel inverted disturbs everything. I mean absolute phase. Easy to be tested by changing polarity at the speaker terminals. A bass drum kick e.g. brings speaker to suck in - not move out.
Can you find any time correlation of when the recordings were made to when the effect takes place? Is it the case with today’s recordings too?
--- all CD´s I know have this effect. I recorded some hundred jazz CDs to DAT borrowed from the public library (also lending cultural valuable things like JAZZ CDs!!!). CDs produced from early 80th until today containing music from late 20th until today. Even on bad sonically quality recording copies from late 20th LPs the "right" phase was easily to be recognized. And the sound master brought it "inverted" onto the disc. So it could really be a kind of unofficial standard - different between US and Europe caused by standard equipment.
I wish I had a phase inverter switch to play with :-(
--- change speaker cable polarity, but the terminals will suffer...
Apparently a lot of equipment reverses absolute polarity too, not just the recording. So, it is feasible you have have it the other way round, and are switching it one way and not the other! Irrelevant maybe, but interesting.
--- it is known that many US brands had or still have (?) different pinouts on XLR, due to this?! And some product have absolute phase mistakes caused by design. Seems like the designers sometimes do not care about.
Apparently, some tracks (I don't mean cd tracks) can be recorded in one phase and some another, so it will bever be fully 'right' on some recordings.
--- I found just a view CD´s were the phases are mixed between tracks. Sound masters have not harmonized. Specially on samplers or where some records are copied together on one CD.
According to Robert Harley (iirc) in 'The Ultimate Guide to High End Audio' changing absolute phase only makes a small difference to SQ but is most significant in accuracy of transients like drum hits - iirc - I will look later when I'm at home
--- I can absolutely confirm it in this way. A drum kick can immediately by heard as "wrong", even on medium equipment. But on high end equipment and specially "impulse correct speakers" even the small difference can be realized. Everything sounds somehow a bit "unnormal". Fokus is lost. Many sounds become aggressive. Piano e.g. becomes a bit of keyboard. Check it out!
Anyone know how to easily add a phase-change function in say, a cd player, with a switch at the back maybe?
--- almost all DAC IC´s have pins to be laid to 0V or 5V to set the absolute phase. Necessary for full symmetrical DACs. So add this switch and done. By the way - also you frequently can adjust in the same way the filter type at the Digifilter IC.
This is an interesting topic, could be one more reason not all my CDs sound so great...
--- please test it. I really was shocked! So many CDs are perfect – and were so terrible before! Anecdote here from Europe: Chesky CDs are great (sonically wise), but inverted. So many freaks check out there hyper end equipment with their CDs and discuss about "last mistakes" of this and that cable and equipment. In one occasion I just changed the absolute phase and all failures were gone – "why have you never used this button before…".
ashok said:
Excellent replies Klaus, thanks for all the comments and advice.
"--- change speaker cable polarity, but the terminals will suffer..."
-my speakers use a Neutrik Speakon and cable is bare wire at the amp end, so I can't do this easily at all.
I am genuinely interested in adding this facility to my cd player, the player is not 'hi end' as such - it's a [modded] Marantz cd63ki, so does not have the feature of course!
"almost all DAC IC´s have pins to be laid to 0V or 5V to set the absolute phase..." - could you please explain in more detail for me please? How do I find where to connect the switch exactly etc? I am not especially technically minded, though I do know where the DAC is... under the flippin' pcb!!
Thanks again,
-Simon
"--- change speaker cable polarity, but the terminals will suffer..."
-my speakers use a Neutrik Speakon and cable is bare wire at the amp end, so I can't do this easily at all.
I am genuinely interested in adding this facility to my cd player, the player is not 'hi end' as such - it's a [modded] Marantz cd63ki, so does not have the feature of course!
"almost all DAC IC´s have pins to be laid to 0V or 5V to set the absolute phase..." - could you please explain in more detail for me please? How do I find where to connect the switch exactly etc? I am not especially technically minded, though I do know where the DAC is... under the flippin' pcb!!
Thanks again,
-Simon
Build in inv button
Dear Simon,
""almost all DAC IC´s have pins to be laid to 0V or 5V to set the absolute phase..." - could you please explain in more detail for me please? How do I find where to connect the switch exactly etc? I am not especially technically minded, though I do know where the DAC is... under the flippin' pcb!!"
I would like to tell positive things, but it could become a bit of a problem for you w/o technical mind. But lets check:
- open the housing - however - and find the type of the DAC
- check availability of the datasheet and pinout in the web (if a standard DAC IC no problem, if special DAC like Sony etc the first no go)
- hopefully the identification of THE pin for setting the inv can be done
- check, what is applied in the Marantz, 5V or 0V. Find a pin at the IC with the other, missing voltage.
- soldering work: lift the inv pin of the IC - at SMD devices a tricky thing for well equiped solderering freaks...
- solder wires to the 0V, 5V and inv-pin and lead them to a switch
So far the theorie... Maybe there is a chance. Good luck!
Klaus
Dear Simon,
""almost all DAC IC´s have pins to be laid to 0V or 5V to set the absolute phase..." - could you please explain in more detail for me please? How do I find where to connect the switch exactly etc? I am not especially technically minded, though I do know where the DAC is... under the flippin' pcb!!"
I would like to tell positive things, but it could become a bit of a problem for you w/o technical mind. But lets check:
- open the housing - however - and find the type of the DAC
- check availability of the datasheet and pinout in the web (if a standard DAC IC no problem, if special DAC like Sony etc the first no go)
- hopefully the identification of THE pin for setting the inv can be done
- check, what is applied in the Marantz, 5V or 0V. Find a pin at the IC with the other, missing voltage.
- soldering work: lift the inv pin of the IC - at SMD devices a tricky thing for well equiped solderering freaks...
- solder wires to the 0V, 5V and inv-pin and lead them to a switch
So far the theorie... Maybe there is a chance. Good luck!
Klaus
Re: not just one channel inverted.
Apparently, some tracks (I don't mean cd tracks) can be recorded in one phase and some another, so it will bever be fully 'right' on some recordings.
----------------------------------------------------
This applies particularly to compilations and demo discs.
----------------------------------------------------
Chesky CDs are great (sonically wise), but inverted. So many freaks check out there hyper end equipment with their CDs and discuss about "last mistakes" of this and that cable and equipment. In one occasion I just changed the absolute phase and all failures were gone – "why have you never used this button before…".
------------------------------------------------------
Chesky discs are not the worst; may be the compilations are. SACDs are most affected.
-----------------------------------------------------
Apparently, some tracks (I don't mean cd tracks) can be recorded in one phase and some another, so it will bever be fully 'right' on some recordings.
----------------------------------------------------
This applies particularly to compilations and demo discs.
----------------------------------------------------
Chesky CDs are great (sonically wise), but inverted. So many freaks check out there hyper end equipment with their CDs and discuss about "last mistakes" of this and that cable and equipment. In one occasion I just changed the absolute phase and all failures were gone – "why have you never used this button before…".
------------------------------------------------------
Chesky discs are not the worst; may be the compilations are. SACDs are most affected.
-----------------------------------------------------
Phase Dampening...
To paraphrase Fred, you guys are all wet.
The correct term is 'absolute polarity' and not absolute phase.
Polarity is polarity and phase is time delay wrt a reference.
In my experience in room AP is mission critical.
I find that discs are recorded in random polarity, and I have albums where the 'top 40 hit' track is recorded in one polarity, and the rest of the album reversed.
I expect that this is due to the final mastering for the hit track being done in a different facility to the remainder tracks, and it is not at all difficult to introduce a polarity reversal somewhere in the equipment chain.
Also individual instruments can be heard recorded inverted wrt the rest of the instruments on some tracks.
Eric.
To paraphrase Fred, you guys are all wet.
The correct term is 'absolute polarity' and not absolute phase.
Polarity is polarity and phase is time delay wrt a reference.
In my experience in room AP is mission critical.
I find that discs are recorded in random polarity, and I have albums where the 'top 40 hit' track is recorded in one polarity, and the rest of the album reversed.
I expect that this is due to the final mastering for the hit track being done in a different facility to the remainder tracks, and it is not at all difficult to introduce a polarity reversal somewhere in the equipment chain.
Also individual instruments can be heard recorded inverted wrt the rest of the instruments on some tracks.
Eric.
To my knowledge, Absolute Phase is not seriously taken into consideration by the majority of Recording Studios
Phase can be inverted accidentally almost anywhere in a recording and mastering system, and not "Put Right" because nobody checks, listen or maybe even cares
Changing the phase polarity, or "Screwing it up" is very easy in balanced line systems, but maybe not so easy once the audio signal is in the Digital Domain
Many years ago, i cannot remember the name of the manufacturer, an USA based one, made a Phase Sensing and Switching Unit, designed to use with AM Broadcast Transmitters to increase Loudness
AM Transmitters, can modulate 100% Negative, and often up to 140% Positive
This unit sensed Positive Peaks, and flipped the phase so that predomminently Positive Peaks would modulate the transmitter in the positive direction
It worked very well
It would be relatively simple to design such a "Gadget" for Hi-Fi Stereo
Any interest
Phase can be inverted accidentally almost anywhere in a recording and mastering system, and not "Put Right" because nobody checks, listen or maybe even cares
Changing the phase polarity, or "Screwing it up" is very easy in balanced line systems, but maybe not so easy once the audio signal is in the Digital Domain
Many years ago, i cannot remember the name of the manufacturer, an USA based one, made a Phase Sensing and Switching Unit, designed to use with AM Broadcast Transmitters to increase Loudness
AM Transmitters, can modulate 100% Negative, and often up to 140% Positive
This unit sensed Positive Peaks, and flipped the phase so that predomminently Positive Peaks would modulate the transmitter in the positive direction
It worked very well
It would be relatively simple to design such a "Gadget" for Hi-Fi Stereo
Any interest
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