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Inside the Onkyo ND-S1 Ipod Transport
Inside the Onkyo ND-S1 Ipod Transport
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Old 24th January 2010, 04:12 PM   #21
stephensank is offline stephensank  United States
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My friend who is now a 'former Wadia dock owner' brought over his just-received Onkyo dock the other day, and I just had time to have a peek at the spdif output signal, and, much as I postulated it should be, with a 75ohm load, the spdif output signal was positively beautiful. Clean, no ringing, no visible harmonics, just a great looking signal. Haven't heard back from him yet on the sound quality, but I expect it to sound better than the Wadia, and will be really surprised if it doesn't.
And, yes, the unused dac portion of the BB usb chip does provide the potential opportunity for actually using that dac & adding a headphone amp. It would be a bit challenging, due to being all surface-mount, but I'm sure it's possible. I'll be surprised if Onkyo fails to bring out an 'upgrade model' soon that does exactly that.
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Old 25th January 2010, 10:35 PM   #22
4real is offline 4real  Netherlands
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Interesting stuff..

What most interested me: how do they get digital audio out of the iPod? If they indeed use a Ti USB DAC, does this mean that the iPod can act as a USB host, and just use the Ti DAC as a playback device? If so, do you need to do some configuration for this? As far as I know, you can let the iPod know of certain devices by putting a specific value resistor over some pins.. Maybee, this is needed to put the iPod in USB host mode?

If so, it would be very easy to make your own Ipod to SPDIF doc, just hook up a simple USB DAC with SPDIF output, and you're done.. Sounds far to easy to be true..
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Old 26th January 2010, 02:32 AM   #23
stephensank is offline stephensank  United States
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There are actually two spdif 'translator/driver' chips in the Onkyo, one being the USB input dac, and the other being a TI/BB DIT4096 chip that is a conventional spdif driver, albeit hi-res. I believe the USB dac is used only for the pc input, allowing the user to use the dock both as an Ipod-to-dac interface and as a pc-to-dac interface. There would be no reason for the DIT4096 if the ipod was being tapped from usb output mode. The whole reason for the Wadia to come into being was that they had gotten the license to access the proper direct digital output signals from the ipod, which now seems also the case with the Onkyo. This is, theoretically, the superior way to get a digital audio datastream out of the ipod, versus usb out.
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Old 26th January 2010, 06:27 AM   #24
4real is offline 4real  Netherlands
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Well, then why does the Wadia also have a USB DAC? It does not have a USB port...

I guess it's all some big marketing scam, letting it seems complicated while it's not..

Via a resistor op pin 21 and/or and maybee a serial command, the iPod is put into USB host mode, and then sends it's audio to the USB DAC. It then converts it to SPDIF.

I don't know about the DIT... There are in fact a lot of things I don't get about the Denon? Why need such a massive CPU, and even external memory...

It's sertainly a mistory worth looking into! Maybee FAA can trace the USB lines from the dock connector. Also pin 21 would be interesting.
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Old 29th January 2010, 10:41 PM   #25
Agi is offline Agi  United Kingdom
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Inside the Onkyo ND-S1 Ipod Transport
Yes, i would too like to know how do apple manage to make this accessible. Sorry i'm a bit of a noob. But say it were by USB data transfer, what's to stop another person just doing an exact copy of the wadia/onkyo?
I mean does it specifically have a coding, or a chip which is only available directly from apple?
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Old 29th January 2010, 10:49 PM   #26
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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Inside the Onkyo ND-S1 Ipod Transport
It needs an encryption Key from Apple i understand.

dave
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Old 29th January 2010, 11:04 PM   #27
Agi is offline Agi  United Kingdom
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Inside the Onkyo ND-S1 Ipod Transport
So what exactly is an encrypting key?
There's a chip which has a memory on it with a specific key?
Or is it just an electrical value which allows the product to stream out via usb?
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Old 31st January 2010, 09:32 PM   #28
sycorax is offline sycorax  Netherlands
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It is very difficult (read $$$$) to get the info for interfacing to the IPOD. You need to sign several non disclosure agreements and have to to a lot off legal work for example you need an attorney($$$):

Note that he/she must be a licensed attorney. The Made for iPod License is a binding legal agreement that imposes a number of significant obligations on the Licensee. It is important that these obligations are reviewed with counsel so that their impact on your organization, and its ability to comply, may be fully understood. During the enrollment process we may verify your Counsel's contact information.

This is a small part of the correspondence with Apple. In layman's language: when you leak you are broke

But there is also some info in the public domain:

1 - FireWire Ground 1
2 - FireWire Ground 1
3 - FireWire Data TPB (+)
4 - USB Data (+) 2
5 - FireWire Data TPB (−)
6 - USB Data (−) 2
7 - FireWire Data TPA (+)
8 - USB VBUS Power +5 VDC (from computer) 2
9 - FireWire Data TPA (−)
10 - Accessory Indicator 3
11 - Firewire Power +12 VDC 4
12 - Firewire Power +12 VDC 4
13 - +3.3V Power (to power iPod accessories) 5
14
15 - USB GND 6
16 - Ground 6
17
18 - Serial RxD
19 - Serial TxD
20 - Serial GND
21 - S-Video Luminance 7, Component Pr
22 - S-Video Chrominance 7, Component Y
23 - Video Out - Composite Video (for ipod colour when slideshow activated)8, Component Pb
24
25 - Line In - Left
26 - Line In - Right
27 - Line Out - Left
28 - Line Out - Right
29 - Line Out - Common Ground 9
30 - Ground 9

Note 1: Pins 1 and 2 connected on motherboard
Note 2: 4 and 6, D- and D+. Different kind of behaviour of the iPod if those pins are set to a certain state:
To force the iPod (useful for the iPod 5G) to charge in any case, when 'USB Power 5 VDC' (pin 8) is fed, pin D- must be connected to 3.3V (USB uses 3.3V for data communication, you can connect to 5V but its not as safe) through a 10kΩ resistor, and pin 4 must be connected to the Ground (for example: pin 1) with a 10kΩ resistor. 10kΩ resistor has been determined experimentally.
To force the iPod nano 2nd generation (aluminium case) to charge, you have to connect pin 6 to 5 VDC (pin 8) through a 10kΩ resistor while leaving pin 4 unconnected.
To properly charge iPod nano 2nd generation, connect pin 6 to 2.5 VDC through 10kΩ resistor, while pin 4 receives 2 VDC.
To charge your video iPod, and play at the same time, connect +12V to pin 11 (Firewire +12). Useful for car iPod players. Also when the car 12V accessory socket turns off when the ignition switch is turned off, this will turn the iPod off.
Note 3: Pin 10 connected to ground via a resistor. Different resistances indicate which accessory is connected. Known resistances/functions (ohms) are as follows:
1kΩ - iPod docking station, iPod beeps when connected
10kΩ - Takes my iPod into photo import mode
500kΩ - vava uses this for his serial-via-dock experiments. Used in Dension Ice Link Plus car interface
550kΩ - Measured value of Nike+ Receiver
1 MΩ - Belkin auto adaptor, iPod shuts down automatically when power disconnected
Note 4: Pins 11 and 12 connected on motherboard
Note 5: Pin 13 stepped up to provide +5 VDC to USB on iPod Camera Connector.
If iPod is put to sleep while Camera Connector is present, +5 VDC on USB slowly drains back to 0 VDC.
If Camera Connector is disconnected, draining power can be detected between this pin on the Camera Connector dock connector and +5 VDC on USB connector.
Used by the Honda Music Link to detect the presence of an iPod.
Note 6: Pins 15 and 16 connected on motherboard
Note 7: Newly discovered from iPod Color Dock
Note 8: Composite out uses common ground as ground
Note 9: Pins 29 and 30 are connected on motherboard

So there is a start to do some hacking. I have ordered one!
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Old 31st January 2010, 09:51 PM   #29
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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Inside the Onkyo ND-S1 Ipod Transport
I wonder if the Firewire pins are still live on the latest gen?

dave
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Old 1st February 2010, 07:22 AM   #30
Kamel is offline Kamel  Germany
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Why won't we tap the I2S Signal inside the Ipod and connect it to the unused Pins?

Okay perhaps it'll be difficult because the ICs on the newer Ipod Generations are irrecognizable but I think it's not impossible.


Felix
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