Hi, I remember you was skeptic to my spekticism, that's what you asked details about layout without getting my point instead try it with humility. I advised you some precise references and you tried something else in the brand because your point was saving few cents...that' was not my point nore my advice to get it even more true if we are telling about impressions.. Yes I remembrr you thanked me not immediatly by pm for the advice but after for the few bucks saved, sort of second degree from your english humor left I assume to say that my advice can help but not in the way I think to stay polite... I like you, but I found this pathetic and not humble. You repeated after here and again than what I said didn't gave you the desire to try in a further advice about I2S inputt.... hidding you behind the fact I could not understand your point. Are you kidding me, free to you to not to listen to but don't change the facts please.
A guy like Sumottan knows my advices can be often very good for instance with the caps. What he wrotes just before is very precise and I share the same feeling... so to be tried with the same precision than the way it was expressed imho. Staying open is better than giving an explqnation to an exerience you didn't concretize yet... Imho and YMMV of course. I'm sure ypu are on tne sharing attitude as guy like Sumottan or I. So just to get it the rigjt way about impressions... cheers
@ Sumottan, all you said in the few post the page before or this one is a gold mine according to me, I find it all correct and similar to my experiences....
Too bad such advices are underetimated... devil is in the details and such little gold advices can give all the icing on the cake that makes the pudding better, yah. But as I said I lurk now and will not give my humble receips to Abrax anymors... fruit of many monney and efforts and time consumed but simply rejected out of hand.
Too bad such advices are underetimated... devil is in the details and such little gold advices can give all the icing on the cake that makes the pudding better, yah. But as I said I lurk now and will not give my humble receips to Abrax anymors... fruit of many monney and efforts and time consumed but simply rejected out of hand.
Its now clear to me that you felt slighted when I didn't give your suggestions the respect you thought they deserved. The facts haven't changed but you're responding to your interpretation of the facts, not the facts themselves and your egotism is causing you to interpret all the facts in relation to you. Whereas my actions are about me, not about you. That's particularly ironic given you wrote earlier :
I believe in people synergy, it always gives better results than standalone work which is always limited by stupborn, selfisch if not egotic sides of our individual characters !
I do look for advise all around, but when I put my time and money in, it is my own choice, my decision not advisors. And it is also my choice when I should say a word "thank you". No-one should feel upset if a due credit is given, end of story. If it does, it require a psychological consultation.
The subject is not me or you, the subject is a fact is stupborn and to know you have to try... you didn't. But a guy showed you the concept was good, he did it and shared ! And you continue to say it diserves not a look while saying "thank you" to the guy in the same time or me before... which is for me more a "fu" not a "than".
It's not about your freedom or mine, it's about you're attitude and words such "it diserves not a look". I just had to tell you that, that's all.
But I accept your answer as I wrote against your behavior.
But again you maid a political answer about missinterpretation for people and the rest of the world. It is not changing the fact and the truth because your shoeshine has to be self polish...which is egotic btw!
So please not sure the people the most egotic of us is me
! Anyway end of the story, I'm not here here to troll and yes such thing may happen. Deal with it,
You also mixing up concepts together without logic : sorry to interpret the facts as I'm a part of it as we talked together !!! Is it a joke ? Your attitude was negative and sorry to feel in concern as I'm directly in it twice : your answer was just insult hidded behind a false thank you and I had just to tell you I disagree as it was given to me. And after you write 'it's great when we all pool our ressources" Again are you kidding me ??? It's just about that and it doesn't say you're bad and btw you share... or more exactly you give without wanting to receive... ok your freedom but not my fault. Just to say courtesey and humility are diserved for all.
Well all I can say I can add now the words pedantic and arogant and it's clear to me now you listen to yourself only whatever the mystification of what happened. And yes I'm not polite to say these two words and I ask you to accept all my apoligizes.
Well my fault is I should have PM to Abraxalito and not write here about our personal disagreement, it's a lack of courtesey for others. And I apologize for the readers and I stop here.
It's not about your freedom or mine, it's about you're attitude and words such "it diserves not a look". I just had to tell you that, that's all.
But I accept your answer as I wrote against your behavior.
But again you maid a political answer about missinterpretation for people and the rest of the world. It is not changing the fact and the truth because your shoeshine has to be self polish...which is egotic btw!
So please not sure the people the most egotic of us is me
! Anyway end of the story, I'm not here here to troll and yes such thing may happen. Deal with it, You also mixing up concepts together without logic : sorry to interpret the facts as I'm a part of it as we talked together !!! Is it a joke ? Your attitude was negative and sorry to feel in concern as I'm directly in it twice : your answer was just insult hidded behind a false thank you and I had just to tell you I disagree as it was given to me. And after you write 'it's great when we all pool our ressources" Again are you kidding me ??? It's just about that and it doesn't say you're bad and btw you share... or more exactly you give without wanting to receive... ok your freedom but not my fault. Just to say courtesey and humility are diserved for all.
Well all I can say I can add now the words pedantic and arogant and it's clear to me now you listen to yourself only whatever the mystification of what happened. And yes I'm not polite to say these two words and I ask you to accept all my apoligizes.
Well my fault is I should have PM to Abraxalito and not write here about our personal disagreement, it's a lack of courtesey for others. And I apologize for the readers and I stop here.
The source is an AK4118 SPDIF to I2S that I got from ebay. AK4118 digital receiver board SPDIF to I2S with LCD Sampling Rate display | eBay
I just needed an I2s source since I didn't have one and this looked decent enough for testing the Phidac to see if it would even work.
PSU is a Sony SMPS laptop charger. Pretty crappy but I didn't have another 12V option laying around. I have some LT3045 boards in the mail to see how that will treat this set up. I can tell that it needs better PSU but this was all hacked together just for testing. Now I have to go down the rabbit hole of better power, better I2s source (plan on getting the F-1) and better wiring. But this is all part of the fun is it not?
More impressions on the Phidac: After letting everything, including the caps burn in for another 24 hrs the soundscape is settling in nicely. I keep being impressed by the bass coming from this dac compared to my previous es9018 setup. The bass sounds a full octave lower. I am listening to bass that has never been produced from my Sennheiser 650 headphones before. You know that feeling you get in your chest when that low 20-40hz bass shakes you. Well, I am psychosomatically feeling that bass in my chest while listening to headphones. That is how authoritatively this dac presents bass. This is not in an artificial boosted way, it's just not shy or modest about it's bass.
One downside to how this dac sounds so different from my other dacs is that I can't seem to get any work done while listening to this. I keep hearing layering, sounds, effects and dynamics that I have not heard before and am totally sucked in to the music.
As for cap upgrades, I am not going to mess with this until these caps have at least 200 hrs on them and the psu portion is as clean as I can get it. I need to know the sound really well so I can judge what changing cap values effects.
The first test will be to remove the 15uf bypass caps that are on C34,35,36 which can't be be NP0 but are some lower, no bueno, variety and replace those with 0.1uf NPO, as per the specs for AD8017. The electolytics that go there will first be 10uf Silmic + 10uf Nichicon KZ. I suspect that will be sufficient but it could maybe do with 22uf or even 220uf, we'll see.
@abraxalito I don't mean any disrespect wanting to mod the Phidac. I am just that impressed with it. It is unreasonably good for how inexpensive it is and I simply have to play around with it. If you don't mind, why did you choose the 15uf bypass on the A8017 instead of the 0.1 + 10uf?
I just needed an I2s source since I didn't have one and this looked decent enough for testing the Phidac to see if it would even work.
PSU is a Sony SMPS laptop charger. Pretty crappy but I didn't have another 12V option laying around. I have some LT3045 boards in the mail to see how that will treat this set up. I can tell that it needs better PSU but this was all hacked together just for testing. Now I have to go down the rabbit hole of better power, better I2s source (plan on getting the F-1) and better wiring. But this is all part of the fun is it not?
More impressions on the Phidac: After letting everything, including the caps burn in for another 24 hrs the soundscape is settling in nicely. I keep being impressed by the bass coming from this dac compared to my previous es9018 setup. The bass sounds a full octave lower. I am listening to bass that has never been produced from my Sennheiser 650 headphones before. You know that feeling you get in your chest when that low 20-40hz bass shakes you. Well, I am psychosomatically feeling that bass in my chest while listening to headphones. That is how authoritatively this dac presents bass. This is not in an artificial boosted way, it's just not shy or modest about it's bass.
One downside to how this dac sounds so different from my other dacs is that I can't seem to get any work done while listening to this. I keep hearing layering, sounds, effects and dynamics that I have not heard before and am totally sucked in to the music.
As for cap upgrades, I am not going to mess with this until these caps have at least 200 hrs on them and the psu portion is as clean as I can get it. I need to know the sound really well so I can judge what changing cap values effects.
The first test will be to remove the 15uf bypass caps that are on C34,35,36 which can't be be NP0 but are some lower, no bueno, variety and replace those with 0.1uf NPO, as per the specs for AD8017. The electolytics that go there will first be 10uf Silmic + 10uf Nichicon KZ. I suspect that will be sufficient but it could maybe do with 22uf or even 220uf, we'll see.
@abraxalito I don't mean any disrespect wanting to mod the Phidac. I am just that impressed with it. It is unreasonably good for how inexpensive it is and I simply have to play around with it. If you don't mind, why did you choose the 15uf bypass on the A8017 instead of the 0.1 + 10uf?
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@pelopidas - no disrespect taken, in fact I'm encouraged that you want to optimize it yourself. That tells me it has plenty of promise - its what I do with any DAC that comes my way
You ask about 15uF, do you mean 1500uF? I chose about the largest cap that would fit on the board. If you look at the next generation (PhiDAC SE) you'll see rather than using a single cap in that bypass position, I use a bank of them on a daughter PCB. That cap determines how pure massed voices and violins sound to my ears - the bigger, the better. The traditional 0.1uF+10uF doesn't come anywhere near cutting it for SQ.
@diyiggy - I have just one question for now. First line you say 'the subject is not me or you....' but you continue regardless talking about me and my alleged 'attitudes', not about my DAC designs (which is the thread's topic). You don't see any contradiction?
You ask about 15uF, do you mean 1500uF? I chose about the largest cap that would fit on the board. If you look at the next generation (PhiDAC SE) you'll see rather than using a single cap in that bypass position, I use a bank of them on a daughter PCB. That cap determines how pure massed voices and violins sound to my ears - the bigger, the better. The traditional 0.1uF+10uF doesn't come anywhere near cutting it for SQ.
@diyiggy - I have just one question for now. First line you say 'the subject is not me or you....' but you continue regardless talking about me and my alleged 'attitudes', not about my DAC designs (which is the thread's topic). You don't see any contradiction?
Hey Abraxalito. Playing around with the Phidac some more:
After letting the whole thing burn in for over 100 hrs I decided to mess with a good thing and start trying different caps and values. I decided to leave the 15uf x5r in place instead of replacing them with 0.1uf x7r. Instead I bypassed them with 33pf C0G.
In all other positions I had a 470uf Silmic paired with a 470uf Nichicon KZ and a 10uf Niobium. Those three together are my holy trinity of capacitors.
I pulled all those out and replaced them all with 10uf Silmic, 10uf Nichicon KZ and 10uf Niobium on C5 and C16 (the output opamps).
I have a 1000uf Silmic and 10uf Niobium on the power input.
On the TDA1387 I have 10uf Silmic, 10uf Niobium and 1000uf Nichicon Muse ES (bipolar). The bipolar here seems to increase the soundstage considerably.
Bypassing the TDA1387 with a 33pf right across the power pins reduced a level of background noise I didn’t know I was hearing. The background is just a bit blacker. I might add another 0.22uf X7r on top of that.
C10 is a 10uf Silmic and a 470uf Silmic
My impressions of that first, fat capacitor setup was a thick, fat, slightly wooly bass, beautiful mid-range and a slightly recessed top end. The treble was all there but sharp, square, sounds were more rounded, if that makes sense.
It was very dynamic. Hugely dynamic.. too much. It was fatiguing. This is ultimately why I decided to change out caps.
What is it now? Instead of ~1000uf on each output opamp, there is now about ~30uf . I have not let this burn in so these impressions are just what’s happening in the first 2 hrs.
The sound right now is waaay more balanced but different. The treble is much clearer. This can be due to three things. First, it could be the little 33pf bypass on the opamps. Second, it could be because I put one 10uf Elna Cerafine on the board at C31. I have found that Cerafines tend to open up that top end, but must be used cautiously. Three, less capacitance.
How does it sound now compared to before? The bass goes as low as before, but is very tight now. It is not less or weaker and still creates that strange sensation in my chest because it is so low and pumping but, not being as wooly, it does not sound as warm. The music is all there but it does not feel like I am listening to vinyl on a tube amp. I had that feeling with the previous capacitor setup, even though I could not do long sessions due to fatigue from some kind of dynamic imbalance. Now It sounds really really good. The timing of the music somehow feels better. It is somewhere between tube and solid state. The best of both worlds.
I’ll update you after this burns in for 100 hrs.
After letting the whole thing burn in for over 100 hrs I decided to mess with a good thing and start trying different caps and values. I decided to leave the 15uf x5r in place instead of replacing them with 0.1uf x7r. Instead I bypassed them with 33pf C0G.
In all other positions I had a 470uf Silmic paired with a 470uf Nichicon KZ and a 10uf Niobium. Those three together are my holy trinity of capacitors.
I pulled all those out and replaced them all with 10uf Silmic, 10uf Nichicon KZ and 10uf Niobium on C5 and C16 (the output opamps).
I have a 1000uf Silmic and 10uf Niobium on the power input.
On the TDA1387 I have 10uf Silmic, 10uf Niobium and 1000uf Nichicon Muse ES (bipolar). The bipolar here seems to increase the soundstage considerably.
Bypassing the TDA1387 with a 33pf right across the power pins reduced a level of background noise I didn’t know I was hearing. The background is just a bit blacker. I might add another 0.22uf X7r on top of that.
C10 is a 10uf Silmic and a 470uf Silmic
My impressions of that first, fat capacitor setup was a thick, fat, slightly wooly bass, beautiful mid-range and a slightly recessed top end. The treble was all there but sharp, square, sounds were more rounded, if that makes sense.
It was very dynamic. Hugely dynamic.. too much. It was fatiguing. This is ultimately why I decided to change out caps.
What is it now? Instead of ~1000uf on each output opamp, there is now about ~30uf . I have not let this burn in so these impressions are just what’s happening in the first 2 hrs.
The sound right now is waaay more balanced but different. The treble is much clearer. This can be due to three things. First, it could be the little 33pf bypass on the opamps. Second, it could be because I put one 10uf Elna Cerafine on the board at C31. I have found that Cerafines tend to open up that top end, but must be used cautiously. Three, less capacitance.
How does it sound now compared to before? The bass goes as low as before, but is very tight now. It is not less or weaker and still creates that strange sensation in my chest because it is so low and pumping but, not being as wooly, it does not sound as warm. The music is all there but it does not feel like I am listening to vinyl on a tube amp. I had that feeling with the previous capacitor setup, even though I could not do long sessions due to fatigue from some kind of dynamic imbalance. Now It sounds really really good. The timing of the music somehow feels better. It is somewhere between tube and solid state. The best of both worlds.
I’ll update you after this burns in for 100 hrs.
the tda1387 bass is really really good and I had the same experience with that almost tangible headphone bass you mentioned.
Its probably a combination of multibit DAC (as in 16 bits or more) bass and NOS bass, but cant say the soekris DAC sounds like that in NOS mode (though soekris has some excellent bass in its own right)
Its probably a combination of multibit DAC (as in 16 bits or more) bass and NOS bass, but cant say the soekris DAC sounds like that in NOS mode (though soekris has some excellent bass in its own right)
Ok, I had to change things today. All 33pf had to go. They were causing a smoothing in the top end (cymbals were ssss instead of chhhh) as well as a more compressed sound stage that was no bueno. Instead, I put another 22uf Niobium Oxide on the TDA1387 and the two output opamps. I also added another 10uf Silmic and another 10uf cerafine on the two output opamps. So it is 20uf Silmic, 10uf Nichicon KZ, 10uf Cerafine, 10uf Niobium and 22uf Niobium Oxide on each output opamp. Now it has really lively dynamics again but is put together and coherent. The fist setup I had felt wobbly at times, hard to put into words. This is a really really good sound. Hats off @Abraxalito for making a fun DAC.
I am consistently doing double-takes at the things I am hearing that I had never heard before with my Sabre dacs.
I am consistently doing double-takes at the things I am hearing that I had never heard before with my Sabre dacs.
I was doing that today. One cap at a time... trying to find the what was causing that too smooth and narrow sound. Turned out to be the 33pf C0G on C34 (the worst offender). There is no burn in that was going to fix that. Additionally I know what Silmic, Muse KZ and Niobium sound like. I have used those three together for a while and know that signature. I like to think of it like cooking. If you are making a Bacon, Lettuce and Tomato sandwich and you suddenly taste sardines, you don't have to finish the sandwich to see if it will get better.
So, all I was saying is that 33pf C0G is not as helpful as I thought it would be. The little bit of topend sparkle and clarity I was looking for was easily added with a Cerafine on the two output opamps. The 22uf Niobium Oxide may not have helped, but it definitely did not hurt and so I am not bothered to take them out.
So, all I was saying is that 33pf C0G is not as helpful as I thought it would be. The little bit of topend sparkle and clarity I was looking for was easily added with a Cerafine on the two output opamps. The 22uf Niobium Oxide may not have helped, but it definitely did not hurt and so I am not bothered to take them out.
@pelopidas - you definitely got the right idea with PhiDAC, its primarily for fun, both in listening and tinkering with it. Its fairly easy to swamp the purchase price of it with boutique component add-ons/replacements.
Incidentally its quite a surprise to me that 33pF C0G makes any difference at all on power supplies given they're low impedance (well under 1ohm). Attached impedance plot of a 0603 33pF cap from TDK's very helpful website. You'll see its impedance is around 100ohm at 50MHz.
Incidentally its quite a surprise to me that 33pF C0G makes any difference at all on power supplies given they're low impedance (well under 1ohm). Attached impedance plot of a 0603 33pF cap from TDK's very helpful website. You'll see its impedance is around 100ohm at 50MHz.
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@Abraxalito Yeah 33pf is tiny and I was partially using them because they do help filter out an irritating pulse sound that occurs when I have my cell phone within two meters of the dac. However, one thing I have learned with electronics is that it is part science and part magic. A circuit may measure the same with parts A and parts B but the actual listening experience can be different. These little 33pf had a weird impact. Imagine a mountain range where only the tips had snow on them. This is what the treble sounded like, only the highest portion of the frequency presented and felt hollow below all while making the sound stage feel about one foot wide, instead of the previously cavernous presentation.
Anyways, the voodoo part is finding the part that sounds best in a given position.
As for exceeding the "fun" price range of the phidac.. I don't think you should sell your design short. An additional $5 for good capacitors is still within the spirit of the project and the reward is immense. This does raise a question for me though. With your big paralleled chip DAC that you are currently working on, what does that improve? How does it sound different or better?
Anyways, the voodoo part is finding the part that sounds best in a given position.
As for exceeding the "fun" price range of the phidac.. I don't think you should sell your design short. An additional $5 for good capacitors is still within the spirit of the project and the reward is immense. This does raise a question for me though. With your big paralleled chip DAC that you are currently working on, what does that improve? How does it sound different or better?
I wasn't trying to say that people shouldn't add boutique caps because its only a bargain-basement DAC, rather the opposite - I made it at a bargain price so that people would have plenty of money left over for the upgraded parts they fancy, and of course for more music
As to what the 'GrossDAC' improves - primarily its transparency. In comparing the two you realize that PhiDAC has a higher subjective noise floor. Its like you find out you've been looking through a diffusing glass window rather than a clear one. But of course without the direct, side-by-side comparison, you don't realize that and PhiDAC sounds pretty clear.
As to what the 'GrossDAC' improves - primarily its transparency. In comparing the two you realize that PhiDAC has a higher subjective noise floor. Its like you find out you've been looking through a diffusing glass window rather than a clear one. But of course without the direct, side-by-side comparison, you don't realize that and PhiDAC sounds pretty clear.