I will give it another try. RoonBridge always gets the volume right but will double check with alsamixer.
Mr. DimDim recently released his shootout (Mambo/Piano/Boss/Kali/Soekris/20k transport) on his blog.
His conclusion:
About "feeling dumb".
You're around for a while dear DimDim. You probably read most of the subject related HAT threads and this or that modification resp. setup proposal.
And then you run such a ridiculous shootout to make sure not to "loose" against the $60 HAT fraction. DimDim u can do better than that.
Enjoy.
His conclusion:
Code:
To no surprise, both my friend#1’s DAC and my Soekris properly cleaned the
floor with the HAT DACs and it’s a good thing that they did – otherwise we
would have felt pretty dumb having wasted so much money on so-called “proper” DACs while we could have got the same result with these DAC HATs.
Phew.About "feeling dumb".
You're around for a while dear DimDim. You probably read most of the subject related HAT threads and this or that modification resp. setup proposal.
And then you run such a ridiculous shootout to make sure not to "loose" against the $60 HAT fraction. DimDim u can do better than that.
Enjoy.
Yes... You are right, about price and so, if shuntreg. etc... has to be done also for the Soekris DAC 😄...
Jesper.
Mr. DimDim recently released his shootout (Mambo/Piano/Boss/Kali/Soekris/20k transport) on his blog.
His conclusion:
Code:To no surprise, both my friend#1’s DAC and my Soekris properly cleaned the floor with the HAT DACs and it’s a good thing that they did – otherwise we would have felt pretty dumb having wasted so much money on so-called “proper” DACs while we could have got the same result with these DAC HATs. Phew.
About "feeling dumb".
You're around for a while dear DimDim. You probably read most of the subject related HAT threads and this or that modification resp. setup proposal.
And then you run such a ridiculous shootout to make sure not to "loose" against the $60 HAT fraction. DimDim u can do better than that.
Enjoy.
I feel that you kinda missed my point.
I started off my post by stating that it would not be fair to compare these HATs to the Soekris or the Buffalo or pretty much any well-regarder "proper" DAC. It was never a matter of "losing or not losing" - it was just a matter of by how much of a margin. It's one thing to lose by an inch and another by a mile, considering that the price difference can be very dramatic. The recent development in HATs (FIFO, master mode, very good clocks, filtering and power supplies, etc.) have definitely closed the gap - it was a question of by how much.
I'm sure that you too have read around that HATs are "all that you need to get excellent sound" and that there really is no need for a "big old DAC". Up until a few months back many people were skeptical about the RPi's I2S output, considering it to be "more than good enough" and some times even better than the I2S output coming from USB to I2S interfaces. Then Kali came along and put things into perspective.
That is exactly what I did with the quote that you posted. Put things into perspective.
And btw, the combination of RPi + HATs that sounded the best to us cost way more than $60. More like $93 + $60 = $153
That is still not a lot, but it's not pocket change for many parts of the world.
Comparing midfi devices - that's what todays "unmodified" HAT DACs are - with
rather high-end gear - IMO is nonsense - waste of time and resources.
Using old HP wall-warts and 7805 based quick-and-dirty supplies, $1.50 RCA cables and $2 ethernet cables just to find out (or to make sure) that a 20k DAC clears the floor over that combo is kind of weird.
Yep - dear DimDim - for sure I missed your point.
However. I do believe - since this is DIY-Audio - that a bit of tweaking and care on implementation (HW and SW!) can make a serious difference with some of todays HAT DACs. I'm not saying though and I never said it, that such a combo will beat reference DACs.
I at least consider my todays installation all but MidFi.
Considering the hours that went into these projects - I probably could have bought a DAC with a golden case.
But. Is that the point here?? Nope! These projects are pure fun.
I think these parts of the world won't ever be the target group of your blog.
Since quite some time I'm trying to get away from this insane waste of money
on audio gear. At least from my perspective I made it quite far.
And the overall trend is going into that very same direction.
Which is a good thing!
Enjoy.
rather high-end gear - IMO is nonsense - waste of time and resources.
Using old HP wall-warts and 7805 based quick-and-dirty supplies, $1.50 RCA cables and $2 ethernet cables just to find out (or to make sure) that a 20k DAC clears the floor over that combo is kind of weird.
Yep - dear DimDim - for sure I missed your point.
However. I do believe - since this is DIY-Audio - that a bit of tweaking and care on implementation (HW and SW!) can make a serious difference with some of todays HAT DACs. I'm not saying though and I never said it, that such a combo will beat reference DACs.
I at least consider my todays installation all but MidFi.
Considering the hours that went into these projects - I probably could have bought a DAC with a golden case.
But. Is that the point here?? Nope! These projects are pure fun.
I think these parts of the world won't ever be the target group of your blog.
Since quite some time I'm trying to get away from this insane waste of money
on audio gear. At least from my perspective I made it quite far.
And the overall trend is going into that very same direction.
Which is a good thing!
Enjoy.
I have been using Raspberry Pi Audiohats for quite a long time. The last year I mainly used a Hifiberry Dac+ Pro. I feed the Raspberry Pi and the Dac+ Pro separately, both with a LifePo4 PSU. I like the sound very much, in my opinion it is a very good device.
Allo offered me the possibility to try a Boss Dac in exchange for some honest listening impressions. And a few days ago, after approximately 40 hours burn-in time, we (me and a friend) tried one.
First we listened some music on the Dac+ Pro. We listened to Youn Sun Nah – Lento (flac, 44khz), a beautiful song on a beautiful cd. After that we listened to harmOrgan (dsd). On this cd Sigmund Groven and Iver Kleive play together the world's smallest (harmonica) and the world's largest (organ) musical instrument. It is an amazing cd with deep basses and high notes and it is beautifully recorded. The last song we listened to is an aria from Handels Messiah (Hogwood): ‘Who may abide the day of His coming’ (flac, 44khz). This aria is sung by Emmy Kirkby. We both love(d) the sound of the Dac+ Pro.
After that we listened the same songs on the Boss. We used one cheap powersupply. And we were impressed. Knowing that experiencing music is very subjective I will try to write about our experiences with the Boss.
Already without a good psu the Boss sounds very good! The Boss is in control but also lively. The sound of the Boss is coherent but also airy. And the bass? When I read about the super capacitor I was a little bit afraid that the bass would be too loud. But fortunately this is not the case. The bass on the Boss is not louder but deeper. We did not only hear the bass, we also could feel and experience it. The trebles were a little bit harsh but when we replaced the cheap powersupply with one LifePo4 PSU the harshness was gone.
On the art of sound website Blackadder wrote: 'The BOSS has an air of discipline to how it pulls each range in to focus.' Those are exactly the words I was looking for when trying to describe the Boss.
In short, we were and are very impressed by the Boss. It is amazing that it is possible to get such beautiful sound for 70 euros!
I will use the Boss in my study room together with the Volt+ amp. In my living room I use an Raspberry Pi / Allo Kali Reclocker / standalone ES9018 I2S Dac combination. I like this combination very much. A few weeks ago I could not imagine that a Raspberry Pi Dac could beat this combination but I am getting my doubts. The gap is closing and in my opinion the Boss came very close. Maybe one day there will be a Raspberry Pi Dac which will cause me to sell my standalone Dac…
Allo offered me the possibility to try a Boss Dac in exchange for some honest listening impressions. And a few days ago, after approximately 40 hours burn-in time, we (me and a friend) tried one.
First we listened some music on the Dac+ Pro. We listened to Youn Sun Nah – Lento (flac, 44khz), a beautiful song on a beautiful cd. After that we listened to harmOrgan (dsd). On this cd Sigmund Groven and Iver Kleive play together the world's smallest (harmonica) and the world's largest (organ) musical instrument. It is an amazing cd with deep basses and high notes and it is beautifully recorded. The last song we listened to is an aria from Handels Messiah (Hogwood): ‘Who may abide the day of His coming’ (flac, 44khz). This aria is sung by Emmy Kirkby. We both love(d) the sound of the Dac+ Pro.
After that we listened the same songs on the Boss. We used one cheap powersupply. And we were impressed. Knowing that experiencing music is very subjective I will try to write about our experiences with the Boss.
Already without a good psu the Boss sounds very good! The Boss is in control but also lively. The sound of the Boss is coherent but also airy. And the bass? When I read about the super capacitor I was a little bit afraid that the bass would be too loud. But fortunately this is not the case. The bass on the Boss is not louder but deeper. We did not only hear the bass, we also could feel and experience it. The trebles were a little bit harsh but when we replaced the cheap powersupply with one LifePo4 PSU the harshness was gone.
On the art of sound website Blackadder wrote: 'The BOSS has an air of discipline to how it pulls each range in to focus.' Those are exactly the words I was looking for when trying to describe the Boss.
In short, we were and are very impressed by the Boss. It is amazing that it is possible to get such beautiful sound for 70 euros!
I will use the Boss in my study room together with the Volt+ amp. In my living room I use an Raspberry Pi / Allo Kali Reclocker / standalone ES9018 I2S Dac combination. I like this combination very much. A few weeks ago I could not imagine that a Raspberry Pi Dac could beat this combination but I am getting my doubts. The gap is closing and in my opinion the Boss came very close. Maybe one day there will be a Raspberry Pi Dac which will cause me to sell my standalone Dac…
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Very nice review Mr.
I was telling everybody (including myself), that i was finish doing diyaudio for this winther
... Anyway i am finding myself chasing another dac -project.Case is i rebuild my hifi this winther, started out with an full-blown dual mono Salas DCG3 preamp... Hell... i started hearing better channel seperation at that point, eventhrough i was feeding music into my LM4780 gainclone... so next project was my AlephJ-Mimi! (AlephJ-mini), which i tested and have now finished... This build is also dual mono! Now sound became even better (Especially when listning to lowish nice music)... So now i find myself chasing next part of chain
For now i am using an IQaudio DAC, which is ofcause is really good, but having read about the jitter/clocks, i really feel i must try another dac now
Donno if i am in for buying a Boss, maybee, meybee not, but sure its very interessting.
Just my 5cent's.
Jesper.
Do not overrate this??
From my experience - on my Mambo modification project - the vast progress wasn't contributed by the Kali.
Of course it made quite a nice step up. And I wouldn't run without it. BUT.
E.g. choice of parts, power supplies, clocking scheme, asf. IMO had seriously more impact then the Kali.
Meanwhile I'm wondering if jitter really has that much of impact,
or if it is not the much more carefully designed environment to achieve
that jitter level that makes the difference to other parts of the DAC!
Who said "everything matters" ?
It does. However its hard to quantify one over the other, they all work together as a unit.
New project announced : http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/305583-digione-rca-bnc-output-rpi.html . I take it you don't have any questions...
It does. However its hard to quantify one over the other, they all work together as a unit.
New project announced : http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/305583-digione-rca-bnc-output-rpi.html . I take it you don't have any questions...
Hmmh.
There are probably still some folks out there using SPDIF DACs.
SPDIF with all its flaws.
Why should I convert I2S to SPDIF and then back to I2S to feed a jittery DAC??
SPDIF DACs from those digital dark ages probably sound worse than a
todays Boss installation.
What I've been looking for - I mentioned that earlier - e.g. was a Kali with autosensing SPDIF/Toslink input.
This way I could 1. use the RPI as streamer and 2. use a Toslink for connecting
SPDIF sources like a TV set.
Good luck with your project.
There are probably still some folks out there using SPDIF DACs.
SPDIF with all its flaws.
Why should I convert I2S to SPDIF and then back to I2S to feed a jittery DAC??
SPDIF DACs from those digital dark ages probably sound worse than a
todays Boss installation.
What I've been looking for - I mentioned that earlier - e.g. was a Kali with autosensing SPDIF/Toslink input.
This way I could 1. use the RPI as streamer and 2. use a Toslink for connecting
SPDIF sources like a TV set.
Good luck with your project.
That will be very interesting to see the diffrence..if any
From a jitter point of view its almost the same. However on Kali you get clk/ lr and data synchronized to mck...should make no diffrence as per datasheet, but I am wondering...
Our guys are busy with new projects but we will test it if no one finds the time. As far as SQ , we have no one that really could say if there is a difference, we could hook it to AP but I am afraid any improvements will escape the math of the machine.
From a jitter point of view its almost the same. However on Kali you get clk/ lr and data synchronized to mck...should make no diffrence as per datasheet, but I am wondering...
Our guys are busy with new projects but we will test it if no one finds the time. As far as SQ , we have no one that really could say if there is a difference, we could hook it to AP but I am afraid any improvements will escape the math of the machine.
I want to complement my listening impressions from march 20.
Yesterday we (me and a friend – not the same as in my first listening experience) compared my Audio Gd ES9018 Dac/KALI Reclocker combination (534 + 85 Euro) with the Boss Dac (70 Euro).
We powered the Raspberry Pi/Boss Dac with one LifePo4 PSU.
We powered the Raspberry Pi/KALI with two PSU’s: an IFI PSU for the Raspberry Pi and a BOTW linear power supply for the KALI.
We used Runeaudio 0.4 Beta version.
We listened to Natalie Merchant, Tracy Chapman, Dire Straits, Organ music, Allan Taylor (Stockfish Records).
It was fascinating to compare them. Overall we preferred the Audio Gd / KALI combination. The sound delivered by the Audio Gd /KALI combination was more alive in the room, more free and it had more power (I had to adjust the volume of the amplifier when switching between the dacs, the Boss needed most of the times a higher volume). But we were amazed that the difference was small. Actually, there was also songs where we preferred the Boss, because the sound was more subtle, more refined.
We were impressed by the Boss. Considering the big difference in price and the small difference in performing, we think it is a very good Dac.
As I wrote earlier, a few weeks ago I could not imagine that a Raspberry Pi Dac could beat my Audio GD/KALI combination but I am getting my doubts.
I'd fully agree. It's amazing how close things get. And there's more to gain!
One of the weak points IMO is the joint PI/Boss power supply.
Separating power supplies always made a nice difference.
I mentioned before that I'm all but happy with the Boss external PS implementation.
You also have to make sure that your mixer settings are properly
set with TI PCM51xx DACs!
You might want to run below as root (just an example!):
Then reboot the machine. Sometimes the audio app locks the controls.
The alsamixer settings usually (should) get restored before the audio app is launched during boot.
That'll be prepared if u run above "alsactl store".
I also tried a LiFePO4 supply on my MamboDac.
In the end I preferred a well buffered iPower supply.
And then there are plenty of OS tweaks, which still make a difference.
Enjoy.
One of the weak points IMO is the joint PI/Boss power supply.
Separating power supplies always made a nice difference.
I mentioned before that I'm all but happy with the Boss external PS implementation.
You also have to make sure that your mixer settings are properly
set with TI PCM51xx DACs!
You might want to run below as root (just an example!):
Code:
amixer -q -c0 sset 'DSP Program' 'Ringing-less low latency FIR'
amixer -q -c0 sset 'Analogue' '100%'
amixer -q -c0 sset 'Analogue Playback Boost' '100%'
amixer -q -c0 sset 'Digital' '100%'
amixer -q -c0 sset 'Auto Mute' 'off'
amixer -q -c0 sset 'Auto Mute Mono' 'off'
amixer -q -c0 sset 'Deemphasis' 'off'
alsactl storeThen reboot the machine. Sometimes the audio app locks the controls.
The alsamixer settings usually (should) get restored before the audio app is launched during boot.
That'll be prepared if u run above "alsactl store".
I also tried a LiFePO4 supply on my MamboDac.
In the end I preferred a well buffered iPower supply.
And then there are plenty of OS tweaks, which still make a difference.
Enjoy.
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Thanks Soundchecks for your advice! It really helps me. I'll check it out when I am at home!
One more question: In your review you wrote about the external power jack that could be used after a removing a resistor. But, is it necessary to remove a resistor when I bend pin 2 and 4 from my Raspberry Pi?
One more question: In your review you wrote about the external power jack that could be used after a removing a resistor. But, is it necessary to remove a resistor when I bend pin 2 and 4 from my Raspberry Pi?
I bent pin 2 en 4 from my Raspberry Pi and connected the Boss to an external powersupply (J4 connector) but it didn't work. So, I think I have to remove the resistor.
Somehow the RPI/standalone Audio Gd Es9018 is not working properly without the KALI (Runeaudio Beta 0.4). Most songs give only noise. So I listened to the RPI/standalone I2S Audio Gd Es9018 with other software: Picoreplayer 3.11 Audio Kernel.
Because the software is different it is impossible to do a A/B comparison. But my quick and (subjective!) impression is that the gap is closing further. Some songs give better results with the Boss, other songs give better results with the Es9018. If I had to choose between these setups (not considering the price)
1. RPI/Boss/LiPo4 battery/Runeaudio 0.4
2. RPI/Standalone I2S ES9018 DAC/Picoreplayer (without the KALI)
I really wouldn't know which one to choose.
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