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A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)
A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)
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Old 17th February 2014, 01:38 AM   #1071
Bones13 is offline Bones13  United States
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A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)
The Lundahl stuff is pretty good, I built the K&K Maxxed Phono amp with silver step up transformers and the better Lundahl output transformer for that kit. Truly superb device, but TI was built around that gear. The Sowters were custom built for this project, hence the cost, and the goodness.

Just finished building the Aleph J amplifier. Taking a little break to enjoy the music room before I star making a mess again building the 4 deck DDDac with Sowter outputs.
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Old 17th February 2014, 10:47 PM   #1072
rhlauranna is offline rhlauranna  Germany
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Default DDDAC1794S with eight decks

"The" day of the days in HiFi-history...

well, not to exaggerate all the time in order not to become untrustworthy, I thought for myself in the past how to describe all our discoveries the best way, most neutral, the situation as is actually, not more but also not less, and the phrase "closer to the truth..." came to my mind, me at that time not yet really knowing but more longing for what "the truth" lastly is in reality...

and for quite some time I felt that this was a good approach for that what we are doing here now for about four years and that it would perfectly fit for the description of our ambitions...

but, now, exactly since 15th february 2014, things not only have reached a new level, they have reached "the truth" (an asymptotic process of course, but very close in completely reaching), so please, bear with me in the future when I am talking about "reaching the truth...", with all scientific progresses that have been reached so far, this now indeed is "more" realistic than "closer to the truth...

but let me tell you the story one by one...

first, who were all the participants?

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


from left to right: me, Thomas Nöltner, Bernd Wieland (like the real champion with one of his feet on his/my controlled power supply for 5 and 12 Volt), Doede Douma, Klaus Speth, Jean Hiraga, Bruno Plouvier, Prof. Shii, Dirk Wunderlich

so, as you might know the usual "mad" followers are:

1. Jean Hiraga (who really needs no introduction, but nowadays has become an ultra close follower of all the things that we do here and the stuff that we build for ourselves and which the industry not at all seems to be interested in... having begun to build up his "own" stuff regarding digital streaming with a new power supply for the (DD)DAC(s) which of course he had brought with him for testing purposes

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


top view of the new Jean Hiraga power supply for 5 and 12 Volt

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front view of the new Jean Hiraga power supply for 5 and 12 Volt

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


and the new transformer on Jean's power supply with specifications, which Bernd very much admired...

2. Doede Douma, meanwhile hopefully known to you all and to be seen and read on his two sites:

DDDAC 1794 NOS DAC - Non Oversampling DAC with PCM1794 - no digital filter - modular design DIY DAC for high resolution audio 192/24 192kHz 24bit

and

DDDAC 2000

3. Klaus of course, and Moni, his wife, our generous hosts, who cared for our all being well... thanks a ton for all your hospitality, delicious choucroute with freshly mashed potatoes, tasty chicken soup, sausages (Jean brought some with him from France as well), eggs, baguettes and all kinds of drinks like beer, limo, water, Coca-Cola...

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


...and yes, of course, we all know: nobody is drinking Coca-Cola, but after the session more than two cases with 20 bottles ā 0,33 ltr. each had delighted all the "hard working" listeners... and to what delight: see picture...

4. Bernd, the great guru who first developed controlled power supplies and other specialities and who brought Doede on to the path with his own power supplies...

5. Jean and me, the two of us just side by side of "our ultra toys", two DDDAC1543 with 120 chips each and Bernd's and Jean's new controlled power supplies (to the left in front)

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


and the following guests:

6. Mr Shizuang Shii, a professor of mathematics at the university in Rennes/France...

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


...here together with Doede, preparing the next listening test with DDDAC1743-120chips...

Prof. Shii has just got a DDDAC1794 with eight decks from Doede, and he is owner and constructor of a completely self-built highest end system from another universe... I simply have no other words for that what I have seen on some pictures...

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


...later on I will try to show a little bit more of what that man is doing - this is incredible for me, and I would very much like to have a listen to his system perhaps one day - building his own compression drivers (!), yes, from scratch, and a power supply alone for his pre-amp with some 100 kg in weight (in words: one hundred kilograms), with embedded tubes which are normally only in use for military purposes (and which Doede of course knows very well and of which he owns two... would anybody have thought different? No, not really, or...?)

7. Bruno, from France, a friend and "collaborateur" of Jean, a very nice guy, with very very good ears - it was really big fun with him not only see him playing some imaginative air-guitar while some blues was playing, but speaking the "same" language, technically and musically - not only an intense HiFi-friend, but a friend of good eating and drinking alike, as to be seen on the photo (here cutting some french artisan sausages for the gang which Jean brought with him as a gift - and they both have much fun obviously)...

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


...proudly owning a DDDAC1543 with 120 chips - exactly like mine

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


...but nowadays in combination with the new power supply for especially this DAC from Jean Hiraga...

8. yes, and for the first time we had two ambitious guys out of the south-german HiFi-fan-camp as our guests: Thomas Nöltner and Dirk Wunderlich...

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


Thomas to the very left, Dirk second from the right, and Moni, Klaus's wife, right in the middle

...they both are very qualified DIYers with great experience in vintage-speakers and amps and drivers, not at all shy to build their own stuff... we got to know them for the first time when we visited André in northern France last octobre... if you might be interested, have a look here:

TWOGOODEARS - ??????????: A Reinhard Huttenburg's essay - "Is it possible to combine futuristic music sources with a 100 year old loudspeaker system?"


second: what was the meeting all about?

well, Prof. Shii, Bruno Plouvier, Thomas Nöltner and Dirk Wunderlich primarily had come to listen to Klaus's system as a whole, that system, of which they already had heard so much about... and they were lucky men, especially lucky men because in addition of being part of the "mad" followers who wanted to test and try out very specific things which ultimately culminated in the fullfilment of my very very personal long time ever hard core dream: "perfect" HiFi ! And yes, I do not only "dare" to say "perfect", I do say it is perfect! As perfect as it can get in reproduction. With absolute conviction, although I know already some things how to further ameliorate Klaus's sound... yes, ameliorations within HiFi-heaven... the only pity is that especially "this" result presumably for most HiFi-aficionados will remain out of reach...


so, what is it exactly, that I am talking about?

well, that what I have been chasing for during all my HiFi-live, and this since 1965, so for 49 years now, that what has come "true" !!! A very very long time dream hardly ever imaginable being fullfilled. My stomoch all the years told me that it could be true perhaps one day, but there never ever seemed to be a "real" way to reach it... but finally digital won the race... (just like Ultra HDTV and more...)

...during our long time research we acquired the best speakers/drivers on the globe, we built the best pre-amps, channel deviders, power amps by ourselves (in the sense that input equals output with absolutely perfect squares from 1 cycle to nearly 100.000 cycles), bult our own DDDACs, created our own digital rips, and within this very session on 15th of february we learned/experienced/heard/listened for the first time what it really means to "perfectly" generate a given "perfect" source and stream digital with DDDACs in all their glory...

so, we are long time "prepared" for amplifying squares and then reproducing them with our drivers and horns... but we never ever had "perfect" conditions and squares in the origin, right in the beginning... well, this problem is solved now, with both of the DDDACs, and not only with perfect rips of CDs and SACDs (ISO/DFF), but in transporting them the way they ought to be transported... and because nobody could help us in doing this, we had to find it out by ourselves... and exactly the last secrets in reproducing music now could be revealed in our lastest session with this theme today: DDDACs total..

What does that mean? Well, we long time have been "waiting" for the "fullfilment" in the developments of the DDDACs... it was not that easy to embed always and immediately all the latest results in research into the given DACs, but this now has come to a wonderful and indeed glorious finish: both DDDACs were ready to be tested against one another with the "maximum" of chips (i.e. 240 for the DDDAC1743) and eight decks with the DDDAC1794 (which is 16 chips, two on each deck)...

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


...most of you presumably know the view onto the DDDAC1543 with 120 chips...

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


...but this should be new: for the first time the combination of the two DDDAC1543 with 120 chips to one DDDAC1543 with 240 (!) chips...

...and yes, when we started with digital and got used to it, I always thought, o.k. one computer is just fine, but hey, have a look, meanwhile we have running three of them at the same time, side by side... who would have thought that?

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


Doede taming all the "lions", making them working homogeneously together...

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


...searching for the "right" connections...

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


... and adjusting all the 1543 towers, which are now 20 of them (!), to get everything just exactly perfect...

and now what ? yes, that's what it is all about, the DDDAC1543 with 240 chips

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


here the two DDDAC1543 with 120 chips each - side by side, not yet connected

...but after getting connected ready to be tested in combination with three different controlled power supplies for 5 a n d 12 Volt:

1. the one from Bernd

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


2. Doede's

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


3. and Jean's

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


So, what did we do exactly? We tested the combined "total amount" of the DDDAC1743 with 240 chips in combination with three controlled power supplies: Bernd's, Doede's and the new one from Jean...

...for me - as a non physician - 5 Volt and 12 Volt always have been 5 Volt and 12 Volt, not to be moved or changed at all, like the Mount Everest, but ooohhh, how wrong I was, not only me, all participants had to learn an unbelievable lesson: the sound of different controlled power supplies generating exactly these "5" and "12" Volt is not just a little different, the sound changes that dramatically that one has to hear it to believe... it is like listening to nearly a different system each time... and this is some sort of deviant... so never ever trust just 5 and 12 Volt...

well, but how did each power supply perform in the end ? Now, all power supplies performed on an absolutely ultra level, without a doubt, and one might think that there are hardly any differences. Why? Because they are all built to "perfection", but nevertheless there were quite big differences in sound when being played, just puzzeling one's mind, and at first sight it was really hard to understand and to experience these "differences"... lastly every single controlled power supply has its merits in its own way, while Doede's being definitely the "quickest"...

...and perhaps it is that quickness that leads to that different results... to describe them is very hard, they are there, but they are that way that one has to hear them... for example Bruno heard them as well, and it is just one opinion, he jokingly told me: "Hi Reinhard, if you let me y o u r DDDAC1743 and y o u r power supply, everything is fine, and we remain friends!" Hey, what a result ? And how funny is that ?

...but this was just one of the topics that interested us most, the "influence" on the sound being fed by "perfect" 5 and 12 Volt (you remember: the 5 Volt for the DAC are not served via PC/MAC but as well externally by the different controlled power supplies, which "shoot" the music immediately into heaven...

...there was another topic, which could not be tested isolated, but only in combination: how would the sound change when all physical necessities are pushed to all their limits, i.e. with the DDDAC1743 with 16 Bit, with the maximum amount of chips, i.e. 16 times 16 = 256? well, we did it "only" with 240, and the newly finished DDDAC1794 with eight decks, i.e. 16 chips... and how would "this" sound "behave" in combination with these three different controlled power supplies...

well, just a second, believe me, for 24 hours I have been searching for "the" right word that suits the result best, and I finally came to the conclusion that "erotic", and yes, even "orgiastic" describes it best...

but please, do not believe that it was only me who had that impression...

1. Jean after some seconds of listening to Youn Sun Nah's voice: My Favorite Things, Album: Some Girl, which truely sounded sublime and erotic - I would have liked to be the microphone she has been singing in...

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


...immediately screamed out (and I never ever heard Jean screaming out before): "Wow" and "incredible"... and he nearly "jumped" onto my lap, out of pure joy, and the joy was not only a normal joy, it was exactly that joy and feeling that fullfills a life time dream...

2. Prof. Shii, who was very modest and reserved, and who presumably is not that easy to be moved to eruptions of luck, was very very impressed, and he happily claimed: "This is very very hot, and cool!"

3. And Bruno, yes Bruno, he talked in pictures which everybody immediately understands: "My teeth are falling down..."

...and this was exactly the same experience and the same reaction that we had at the end of december last year, when testing out all possibilities with the DDDAC1794 with eight decks and controlled power supplies with and without Sowters, Mundorfs..., with results which we then thought being typical for the 24 Bit chip, but they are not... for more, read here:

TWOGOODEARS - ??????????: A new Reinhard Huttenburg's review... a scientific gathering at Klaus' place - December 2013

...to me it is clear now that the ultimate precision which these chips are able to generate, significantly depends on the amount of multiplied parallel chips and decks in combination with controlled power supplies for 5 and 12 Volt, and that they not only dramatically ameliorate the sound but equally reduce the jitter which leads to a breathtaking cleanness and naturality (definitely taking away all digititis if there is any...), and it is clear as well that only this way these chips are capable to reveal their definitely best qualities...

well, it is always interesting to listen to "other" people's music, and so we listened to all the stuff, that everybody had brought with him, for example CDs, but as well all sorts of rips in all resolutions up to 24 Bit 192 kHz, and of course ISO/DSD/DFF...

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


Les Introuvables de Pierre Fournier, EMI Classics

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


Daniil Shafran, Cello, Encore

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


Forastičre - Rag Tap Boom

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


Lee Ritenour - 6 String Theory

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


Wagner - Lohengrin, Daniel Barenboim

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


Stereoplay - "Ultimate Tunes 2", and "Live aus dem Hörraum"

well, after really extended listening for some ten hours or so with all different kinds of music, jazz, rock, pop, classic.... ranging from pianissimo to fortissimo, to my ears, there is no "loser", both DDDACs are clear winners, but they are a little bit different in their own sound, especially when they are brought to that point, where they are able to reveal their own character... I mean the differences which are chip-immanent then are clearly be heard, the own sound characteriscics of each chip are revealed...

...one might argue, that in direct comparison the 1543 ultimately perhaps delivers a little bit more "punch", right, and that the 1794 maybe delivers some more "natural smoothness" (of course in absolutely positive sense), right as well... it would perhaps be "ideal" to have both in one, but that doesn't work...

anyway with both DACs you are clearly that far in HiFi-heaven where you ever wanted to be but never ever got before...

...and even Doede, who had - at least to my impression - some sort of written down his DDDAC1743, was confronted with some newly superb acoustic surprises provoked by his own masterpiece which so far had not yet been discovered and experienced, till now, but which came out as that "dramatically good" that five participants immediately wanted a 240 DDDAC, hardly any longer speaking a word about the DDDAC1543 with 120 chips or the DDDAC1794.... because is that much better, i.e. erotic and orgiastic !!!

...yes, and even the hardest vinyl aficionados among us admitted that meanwhile many a thing has changed to the better within digital domain and that it would be highly interesting to directly compare the performance of vinyl "against" digital on Klaus's system, but had to concede directly that alone from dynamics vinyl no longer would be able to compete with digital... and that not only for higher and highest 24 bit resolution files but especially for 16 bit !!!

so, my personal decision is clear: I opt for the 240 chips, as wanted most of the other participants of the session, a n d I will keep of course my DDDAC1794, next step here for me is to mount from 4 decks to 8 decks, not only because of the capability to play high resolution files (by the way, the DDDAC1543 with the new WaveIO-Board is capable of playing up to 24 Bits and 88 kHz and supplying external 5 Volt as well (and in what a mindblowing quality !!!), but because the ultimate researches and developments ih high resolution still have not yet been finished... there are still more things to discover, so for example we want to try out 16 decks, shunt regulators, different resistors... we will see...

so, all those of you who are interested to learn more about what is already going on within further developments, might want to have a look onto the page for really advanced DIYers regarding the DDDAC1794 with all sorts of progression and proceeds... please have a look here....

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)

and here of course on the bottom

TWOGOODEARS - ??????????: A new Reinhard Huttenburg's review... a scientific gathering at Klaus' place - December 2013

it is understood that we all are very urgently waiting for the next definitive results of these steps, and be assured, they will be done in the near future...

well, we had meetings and meetings and meetings in the past... they all were fun, big fun, without a doubt.. and I have them all in such a vivid remembrance, as if they were yesterday... but this absolutely special session here developed some sort of a dynamic range on its own, everybody got "wings" so to speak... this was not planned, this could not be imagined, it just happened, presumably caused by the topic... and I have no explanation for this but the absolute sublime superbness of the performances...

...have a look at how busy and deeply involved everybody is..

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


...in listening...

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


...in bringing things together and running...

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


...in preheating the controlled power supplies to reach just the "right" temperatur...

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


.. in precisely adjusting the volume control...

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


...in "rechecking" what they are listening to...

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


...in measuring and adjusting the exactly needed voltages...

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


...and when all things are just exactly perfect adjusted just enjoying the
best sound ever in the sweet spot, hardly trusting their own ears...

and yes, the quintessence of the meeting was not only having reached "perfection" but that all participants finally not only "understood" but indeed fully "realized" what we have been doing here the last four years...

the reactions of all participants were splendid... not to become indiscrete, but just to illustrate:

1. Jean: "Wow"... "incredible"...

2. Prof. Shii: "This is very very hot, and cool!"

3. Bruno: "My teeth are folling down!"

4. and yes, my dream came true...

...there is a saying In the german language which goes something like this: "One picture tells more than thousand words". So, please, have a look at Bruno, he brings it to the point when deeply convinced showing thumb up, sighing:

A NOS 192/24 DAC with the PCM1794 (and WaveIO USB input)


"This is the real sound..."

Last edited by rhlauranna; 17th February 2014 at 11:11 PM.
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Old 18th February 2014, 07:53 AM   #1073
G600 is offline G600  France
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Incredible meeting, thank you for your report !
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Old 18th February 2014, 09:34 AM   #1074
dddac is offline dddac  Germany
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Thanks Reinhard for great report!

this told us again, that BIG power supplies do make a difference...

also, that paralleling DAC chips seems to have no limit ( well, may be practice... but that depends on your living room....)


during the same day, I got report back from other DIY with serious sound systems, that replacing the standard blue transformer on the dddac power supplies with over dimensioned ones really improved the sound. in this case 250 VA . I will do some testing my self as well. this is anvery easy and not expensive tweak for every one who allready have a dac...

I will report back as well
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Old 18th February 2014, 03:05 PM   #1075
dwjames is offline dwjames  United Kingdom
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Very interesting guys, thanks for sharing

I'm really enjoying my DDDAC 1794 and that's only 1 x dac board!
Did you manage to do any listening tests with using individual low noise voltage regulators like the Tentlabs Shunts on the 1794 boards instead of the LF33 and LF80 regulators by any chance? I'd really be interested to hear your feedback on that.
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Old 18th February 2014, 03:12 PM   #1076
G600 is offline G600  France
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwjames View Post
Very interesting guys, thanks for sharing

I'm really enjoying my DDDAC 1794 and that's only 1 x dac board!
Did you manage to do any listening tests with using individual low noise voltage regulators like the Tentlabs Shunts on the 1794 boards instead of the LF33 and LF80 regulators by any chance? I'd really be interested to hear your feedback on that.
+1

I'm thinking of getting some while ordering my DDDAC kit, Tentlabs or maybe Belleson...
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Old 18th February 2014, 03:25 PM   #1077
dddac is offline dddac  Germany
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the shunt thing is kind of planned for May .....
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Old 18th February 2014, 03:27 PM   #1078
G600 is offline G600  France
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Originally Posted by dddac View Post
the shunt thing is kind of planned for May .....
Take some good time Doede, you deserve it !
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Old 18th February 2014, 03:47 PM   #1079
Chanh is offline Chanh  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dddac View Post
this told us again, that BIG power supplies do make a difference...

also, that paralleling DAC chips seems to have no limit ( well, may be practice... but that depends on your living room....)


during the same day, I got report back from other DIY with serious sound systems, that replacing the standard blue transformer on the dddac power supplies with over dimensioned ones really improved the sound. in this case 250 VA . I will do some testing my self as well. this is anvery easy and not expensive tweak for every one who allready have a dac...

I will report back as well
I can confirm that bigger transformer did too improve SQ from my experiment. In my case I was using 120VA may considering 250VA for the DAC. Wondering if my unused 25VA 2x15V from DAC PS could be replacing stock 2x9V USB PS?
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Old 18th February 2014, 03:51 PM   #1080
Chanh is offline Chanh  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dddac View Post
the shunt thing is kind of planned for May .....
This is exciting! Please let us posted with your progress Doede? Looking for another 8 more DAC boards if you have successfully revised this incorporation?
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