AK4396: best solution for output stage

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ChuckT said:



Interesting, every time I replace a 553x, I found a big improvement. Is there a specific brand/grade of 5534 that sound very good.
BTW, I found the tda1543 don't lack in dynamics and sound better than the cs4397 dac (P3A). Go figure...:xeye:


Yeah, quite interesting. I also know a lot of people who has changed from NE553x to expensive "racing op-amps", and believed that the sound was improved greatly. But, every time they have tried to change back, they descover even bigger improvements :D .

You must be carefull not to cheat yourself in believing, that these "racing op-amps" sounds better, just because you know they have better specs and cost much more.
I guess there must be a reason, that more than 99% of the music you listen to, is made on gear build around NE553x's.

NE553x is extremely neutral, where many of the expensive op-amps tend to have their own sound. Again, this can be very impressing at first. But normally people find it hard to live with these "racing op-amps" over time.
 
Hurtig,
I always suspected the same results as you have described. Actually the first thing that was apparent was an increase in dynamics and a deeper and wider soundstage. I cannot find any shortcomings whatsoever, it really shocked me. You should give it a try, you will be very surprised, as I was.

Bill
 
Hi bwaslo

the crackles came from an old Dell notebook from 2002 with an USB2 pc-card converter. With my new PC (E6700) and Vista there are no crackles anymore! But the notebook is in the living room with my hifi gear.

At the moment the Emu 0404 USB is wired by optical cable to my DVD player. The sound quality is almost good but I think there is a lot more to get out of it.

Has anyone of you already modded a Emu 0404 USB? It is all tiny SMD stuff with less than 1mm distance of the chip legs!
 
Hurtig said:



Yeah, quite interesting. I also know a lot of people who has changed from NE553x to expensive "racing op-amps", and believed that the sound was improved greatly. But, every time they have tried to change back, they descover even bigger improvements :D .

You must be carefull not to cheat yourself in believing, that these "racing op-amps" sounds better, just because you know they have better specs and cost much more.
I guess there must be a reason, that more than 99% of the music you listen to, is made on gear build around NE553x's.

NE553x is extremely neutral, where many of the expensive op-amps tend to have their own sound. Again, this can be very impressing at first. But normally people find it hard to live with these "racing op-amps" over time.

I guess I have to say I trust my own ears and believe in the "better is better" illusion.
Opamp need not to be expensive, the excellent sounding lm4562 is fairly cheap.
 
Re: Which opamps did you try

sendler said:

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Which opamps did you listen to? The LM4562 seems to be one of the favorites of modifiers right now.


Funny.... LM4562 is one of the fovrites "right now". My guess is, that next year when an even better performing op-amp is available, no one will like the LM4562 anymore. And that is my point. These op-amps may be impressing at first, but very hard to live with. As soon as the "news-factor" is gone, no one really like these.
NE553x is very different from that.... Even when "audio-op-amps" break 100GHz, NE553x will still be among the best.

I believe that most people experimenting with new op-amps, do because this is the easy way to change something, and the only way to satisfy the need to try to optimize something. Often it does not matter if the "improvement" really is improving the performance. As long as the DIY'er believe to have done something better.

Some years ago, people were "upgrading" using OPA134, which was said to be a little better than NE553x. Later came the AD825, that was said to be enormously better than the OPA134. But still just a little better than NE553x. Now we have LM4562, that is very much better than AD825.... But still just a little better than NE553x. Se my point?? None these really are better than an old NE553x, but the DIY'ers need an argument to change to these new op-amps. Following the history, you should expect that after all these generations of improved audio op-amps, the difference to NE553x would be extreme. But it's not. I would says, that some of these new op-amps are becomming better and better. And some day they will reach the performance of an NE553x. That's just not what makes people buy new op-amps.... ;) So we better not tell anybody....
 
Studley said:
Hurtig
when you say "we", which company/manufacturer are you referring to?


Did I say we....?? Oohh... Well, I am referring to the people who has been involved in this project: DAC Project

We have been working on this project for more than 4 years, and has gained a little knowledge about how to make a DAC sound right.
We have never based our desing on specifications or what other people says. Spec doesn't neccesary say much about the soubd, and other peoples experiences is difficult to base a high end design on, since many of them will be impressed with anything, as long as they build it themself. Like when people change their op-amps.... :D

The DAC will be available later this year for people interested in a true high end DAC.
We have tested against a lot of DAC's, and has not found anything that comes even close to this desing. But we still have a few things to test, before we lock the design. Currently we are giving sample rate converting another chance. Until now, we have not been impreseed by it, but again... It will get a second chance.
 
Re: Re: Which opamps did you try

Hurtig said:



Funny.... LM4562 is one of the fovrites "right now". My guess is, that next year when an even better performing op-amp is available, no one will like the LM4562 anymore. And that is my point. These op-amps may be impressing at first, but very hard to live with. As soon as the "news-factor" is gone, no one really like these.
NE553x is very different from that.... Even when "audio-op-amps" break 100GHz, NE553x will still be among the best.

I believe that most people experimenting with new op-amps, do because this is the easy way to change something, and the only way to satisfy the need to try to optimize something. Often it does not matter if the "improvement" really is improving the performance. As long as the DIY'er believe to have done something better.

Some years ago, people were "upgrading" using OPA134, which was said to be a little better than NE553x. Later came the AD825, that was said to be enormously better than the OPA134. But still just a little better than NE553x. Now we have LM4562, that is very much better than AD825.... But still just a little better than NE553x. Se my point?? None these really are better than an old NE553x, but the DIY'ers need an argument to change to these new op-amps. Following the history, you should expect that after all these generations of improved audio op-amps, the difference to NE553x would be extreme. But it's not. I would says, that some of these new op-amps are becomming better and better. And some day they will reach the performance of an NE553x. That's just not what makes people buy new op-amps.... ;) So we better not tell anybody....

So you don't believe sound of opamp will improve with new technology/design...:xeye: but dacs do?

Interesting that you like old tech opamp and new tech dac while I like old tech dac and new tech opamp (ok, I like some new tech dacs too)

The lm4562 certainly does not sound sleepy and flat. I will change a 5534x to lm4562 without hesitation. I think even opamps, needs care in implementation.
btw, I don't think the speed of opamp has direct relation to the sound IMO.
 
Re: Re: Re: Which opamps did you try

ChuckT said:


So you don't believe sound of opamp will improve with new technology/design...:xeye: but dacs do?

Interesting that you like old tech opamp and new tech dac while I like old tech dac and new tech opamp (ok, I like some new tech dacs too)

The lm4562 certainly does not sound sleepy and flat. I will change a 5534x to lm4562 without hesitation. I think even opamps, needs care in implementation.
btw, I don't think the speed of opamp has direct relation to the sound IMO.


Yeah, I do believe that op-amps will improve with new technology. No doubt about it. They become faster, achieve lower THD and noise and so on. But do you really need lower THD than an NE553x?? I don't think so.
I don't think that the op-amp manufacturers are chasing the right parameters. They all aim at lowest possible THD, noise and high bandwidth. How many of them do you think really do make serious listening tests on an op-amp in the lab?? I think very few :xeye:
The NE553x is a very good op-amp, that does just what you need for an audio op-amp. To beat it, you need to focus on sonic performance, and not just on better specifications.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Which opamps did you try

Hurtig said:



Yeah, I do believe that op-amps will improve with new technology. No doubt about it. They become faster, achieve lower THD and noise and so on. But do you really need lower THD than an NE553x?? I don't think so.
I don't think that the op-amp manufacturers are chasing the right parameters. They all aim at lowest possible THD, noise and high bandwidth. How many of them do you think really do make serious listening tests on an op-amp in the lab?? I think very few :xeye:
The NE553x is a very good op-amp, that does just what you need for an audio op-amp. To beat it, you need to focus on sonic performance, and not just on better specifications.

I never said anything about chasing better specs. When it comes to audio, who cares about specs. Just pick the component that sounds good, that's it!

Anyways, we are way off topics. I'll stop here.

Here is Jensen app notes on passive output with a tranny.
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/as/as093.pdf
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Which opamps did you try

ChuckT said:


I never said anything about chasing better specs. When it comes to audio, who cares about specs. Just pick the component that sounds good, that's it!

Anyways, we are way off topics. I'll stop here.

Here is Jensen app notes on passive output with a tranny.
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/as/as093.pdf


Exactly my point. Audio isn't about specifications. And the only thing these new op-amps improve on, really is specifications. You are really arguing against yourself :xeye:

The best audio-gear I know, does not use new ultra fast semiconductors. And that's why I don't believe that better technology in op-amps, will lead to better sonic performance by itself.
When the semiconductor industry realize that thay need to use their ears to create good audio performance, I think we may have a chance of getting op-amps that will beat the NE553x. But as long as an "Audio" rated op-amp, really just is an op-amp with low THD, noise and high bandwidth, we are still so far away!
 
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Hurtig said:
Just be aware, that the softness, is the result of the transformer killing every inch of dynamics.

Well..... not if it's a good transformer! =) Really, they don't all do that. The best transformers are quite dynamic and open. It also depends on how you load the DAC output. It can be done, and done well. Just takes a bit of fiddling.
 
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