Sorry to be so long in replying. Not a topic I have any professional knowledge of.... which doesn't ever stop me from offering an ignorant opinion.
Nothing could be nicer than music therapy. I try it every day. Last night, we went to the University of Toronto and heard an early-music group do Elizabethan music and the bright Te Deum of Charpentier with a slide trumpet and bass theorbo, a kind of giant lute. My brain was buzzing all night on this different and engaging music. So that has to be good therapy.
But, lots of everyday things challenge your brain just as much, even if not as enjoyably. So I'd say it was a waste of money for parents to buy "Baby Mozart" packages (I think Disney Corp owns it) when all kinds of music and other brain-engaging activities* provide as much exercise.
(I believe a few neurological conditions like Parkinsons due benefit from the rhythmic/motion character of music.)
Ben
*like arguing on this forum about woofers
Friday night at Phantoms of the Organ. Sunday for me and meeting a buddy at TAVES.
Looking for bits and pieces to complete my Mac music server using FileMaker database (each piece a record or sometimes a few records if the piece deserved multiple independent classifications; iTunes is useless for classical music).
Ben
Looking for bits and pieces to complete my Mac music server using FileMaker database (each piece a record or sometimes a few records if the piece deserved multiple independent classifications; iTunes is useless for classical music).
Ben
Could somebody now (or after they've reconnoitred TAVES landscape) identify a unique and practical meeting spot (water fountain, X floor...., south end.... or third door east of staircase...) and anybody who reads this thread can go there at noon, 2 PM, and/or 4 PM and meet others so inclined and share intelligence*.
Ben
*Wear a Canadian flag pin upside down in third bottonhole up from belt.... kidding
Ben
*Wear a Canadian flag pin upside down in third bottonhole up from belt.... kidding
Managed to squeeze in ~ 2.5 hours on Friday Morning and took a quick walk through the Sheraton side. Surprised to see Totem in a big room. They showed up on the first TAVES and then disappeared.
I think I caught a glimpse of Walter (wlowes) but could not find him later. As expected ran into Audionut (Nelson) and did some catching up on his recent projects.
Probably will get there early tomorrow and spend another 2-3 hours.
Regards,
I think I caught a glimpse of Walter (wlowes) but could not find him later. As expected ran into Audionut (Nelson) and did some catching up on his recent projects.
Probably will get there early tomorrow and spend another 2-3 hours.
Regards,
Lo_Tse
Sorry I missed you. I had a very busy morning so only managed to get in some time in the afternoon. At registration, I asked where I would find audio tube amps. They said all the pure audio stuff was in the Best Western (west side of complex) so I scurried off to find 2 floors. Friday noon to 3.30 it was not at all crowded. There were not a huge number of rooms, but I found a nice cross section of equipment spread out a few doors apart. The good was there was not so much cross noise between rooms. The bad of course is the BW is a cheap motel and the rooms were terrible. Still I enjoyed having time to really listen to some great equipment and talk to the hosts. I am most interested in speakers right now.
I enjoyed hearing for the first time Wilson Audio. Very good but not my cup of tea.
The Audio Note kits room had great great kit speakers from Mundorf. Fantastic sound from tiny speakers.
I always find I enjoy the room with the massive Pass amps. The one solid state that approaches tubes IMHO.
I must have spent an hour in the Coherent Audio room listening to 15" coax drivers on a 300B SET.
Then a really interesting presentation from local Brampton based Wall of Sound. This guy builds 3 way using small planar magnetic panels with a 15" bass re enforcement box. He was driving them with a pair of massive vintage Macintosh 300B amps. I think the best micro detail in the show. If I had $6k to drop, it would either be on Coherent or on Wall of sound.
As you probably guess, my next project is to finally tackle speakers. I am picking up some 18" Pro Sound woofers today for bass re enforcement. I think they will be slot loaded and then an open baffle for the rest. I have been toying with building my own planar magnetic panels, so the Wall of Sound guy was really good to hear. May just go with an Audio Nirvana Alnico full range and be done with it.
With the focus exclusively on audiophile, 3 hrs was lots of time. Let me know what other stuff I missed as I will not have time to return.
Sorry I missed you. I had a very busy morning so only managed to get in some time in the afternoon. At registration, I asked where I would find audio tube amps. They said all the pure audio stuff was in the Best Western (west side of complex) so I scurried off to find 2 floors. Friday noon to 3.30 it was not at all crowded. There were not a huge number of rooms, but I found a nice cross section of equipment spread out a few doors apart. The good was there was not so much cross noise between rooms. The bad of course is the BW is a cheap motel and the rooms were terrible. Still I enjoyed having time to really listen to some great equipment and talk to the hosts. I am most interested in speakers right now.
I enjoyed hearing for the first time Wilson Audio. Very good but not my cup of tea.
The Audio Note kits room had great great kit speakers from Mundorf. Fantastic sound from tiny speakers.
I always find I enjoy the room with the massive Pass amps. The one solid state that approaches tubes IMHO.
I must have spent an hour in the Coherent Audio room listening to 15" coax drivers on a 300B SET.
Then a really interesting presentation from local Brampton based Wall of Sound. This guy builds 3 way using small planar magnetic panels with a 15" bass re enforcement box. He was driving them with a pair of massive vintage Macintosh 300B amps. I think the best micro detail in the show. If I had $6k to drop, it would either be on Coherent or on Wall of sound.
As you probably guess, my next project is to finally tackle speakers. I am picking up some 18" Pro Sound woofers today for bass re enforcement. I think they will be slot loaded and then an open baffle for the rest. I have been toying with building my own planar magnetic panels, so the Wall of Sound guy was really good to hear. May just go with an Audio Nirvana Alnico full range and be done with it.
With the focus exclusively on audiophile, 3 hrs was lots of time. Let me know what other stuff I missed as I will not have time to return.
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Correction
When I referred to Wall of Sound, I meant to say Devine Audio Sound Stage...
www.devineaudio.com ... Sound Stage III is the system that caught my attention
my appology to the designer.
When I referred to Wall of Sound, I meant to say Devine Audio Sound Stage...
www.devineaudio.com ... Sound Stage III is the system that caught my attention
my appology to the designer.
Went back on Saturday and today and spent about 2 hours each day. I think there are less exhibitors (audio related) this years. Conspicuously, American Sound (Angie had 3 rooms last year) and the importer Tricell are absent. I hope this is not going to be a trend or TAVES will fade away, just like the previous Toronto Audio show.
Wynn Audio had a large room displaying a all TIDAL set up in the Sheraton pretty impressive but the speakers were huge. Update stereo set up a pair of the the top of the line Martin Logan and that sound good too. I have seen the picture of the ML speaker in magazine and expect them to be large. But seeing the real thing and realize that they are huge! Being a dipole, it requires a big space to sound good.
Totem showcased their small speaker systems (no crossover was used I was told) and it was amazing that these little ones can produce great dynamics and play loud.
I agree with Walter, the Mundorf speakers (available as a kit from Audiyo) sounded excellent in the Audio Note Kit room. Resolution, dynamics you name it. The HF driver is an AMT and the woofer from Accuton (ceramic cone of course). The crossover was on display, which consisted of very expensive Mundorf caps and copper foil inductors. The only thing that is missing is the low base (according to spec, anything below ~ 40 Hz). Subjectively, these speakers sounded much better than the ANK speakers that were used in previous shows. By the way, the Mundorf representative mentioned that there is a base unit, which will complement this book shelf speakers in the works. When it is done, a full range speaker system is attainable.
The Goldmund system was amazing too. It essentially consisted of a pair of small floor standing tower. The box was make of thick aluminum, again, the dynamics was excellent and the speaker sound really "big" in the room. There are a DAC and amp built inside the speakers. The Goldmund representative mentioned that the speakers have all kind of correction built in (phase, time etc., in digital domain I presumed?). You do not even need speaker cables! One can send signals from your PC/laptop to the speakers directly (there is an antenna at the back of the speaker).
I really enjoyed the setup in one of the Audio Excellence room, with the new Wilson Sabrina speakers driven by a Naim integrated amp. On Saturday, Peter McGrath of Wilson was there playing the music for the show goers. The music source was from a server control by a laptop (they are Peter McGrath's own files) and they sounded really good. Peter told me that those were just "regular wav. files. The room was tuned with base traps to control the boom. I always like the sound of the Wilson speakers although I will never be able to afford it.
Attended the seminar on High Res audio at noon today. It was quite informative and I learned something.
For me, this year's venue is much more convenient as compare to downtown. I just hope more exhibitors will show up next year.
Regards,
Wynn Audio had a large room displaying a all TIDAL set up in the Sheraton pretty impressive but the speakers were huge. Update stereo set up a pair of the the top of the line Martin Logan and that sound good too. I have seen the picture of the ML speaker in magazine and expect them to be large. But seeing the real thing and realize that they are huge! Being a dipole, it requires a big space to sound good.
Totem showcased their small speaker systems (no crossover was used I was told) and it was amazing that these little ones can produce great dynamics and play loud.
I agree with Walter, the Mundorf speakers (available as a kit from Audiyo) sounded excellent in the Audio Note Kit room. Resolution, dynamics you name it. The HF driver is an AMT and the woofer from Accuton (ceramic cone of course). The crossover was on display, which consisted of very expensive Mundorf caps and copper foil inductors. The only thing that is missing is the low base (according to spec, anything below ~ 40 Hz). Subjectively, these speakers sounded much better than the ANK speakers that were used in previous shows. By the way, the Mundorf representative mentioned that there is a base unit, which will complement this book shelf speakers in the works. When it is done, a full range speaker system is attainable.
The Goldmund system was amazing too. It essentially consisted of a pair of small floor standing tower. The box was make of thick aluminum, again, the dynamics was excellent and the speaker sound really "big" in the room. There are a DAC and amp built inside the speakers. The Goldmund representative mentioned that the speakers have all kind of correction built in (phase, time etc., in digital domain I presumed?). You do not even need speaker cables! One can send signals from your PC/laptop to the speakers directly (there is an antenna at the back of the speaker).
I really enjoyed the setup in one of the Audio Excellence room, with the new Wilson Sabrina speakers driven by a Naim integrated amp. On Saturday, Peter McGrath of Wilson was there playing the music for the show goers. The music source was from a server control by a laptop (they are Peter McGrath's own files) and they sounded really good. Peter told me that those were just "regular wav. files. The room was tuned with base traps to control the boom. I always like the sound of the Wilson speakers although I will never be able to afford it.
Attended the seminar on High Res audio at noon today. It was quite informative and I learned something.
For me, this year's venue is much more convenient as compare to downtown. I just hope more exhibitors will show up next year.
Regards,
Nearly impossible to hear anything but over-cooked pop music. What kind of a demo is that? Few speakers that weren't composed of a couple of small drivers in a tall box. Didn't hear much good bass - mostly soggy, ported enclosure thumping at 40-60 Hz.
Many systems in rooms too large for them to play nicely. Some good sound, of course. A speaker with a horn impressed me with the value of having tweeter headroom. And the Martin Logans would warm the heart of any ESL person like me. Pity they can't get their crossover below 320 Hz.
Endless displays of expensive wires. As someone who thinks that's adulterated snake oil, a great waste of exhibitor space. One exhibitor was quite besides himself when I asked for measurements that show all these quantum-physics Brownian motion and other gremlins (all fixed by single crystal $1200 cables) are introduced.
I attended a long demo of the leading cable maker whose name I won't mention for reasons to be obvious soon. Whaddayaknow, pretty clear A-B comparisons. Quite clear when they played the CD I brought along. EXCEPT that when they played it using the OEM power cable to the CD player, it sounded clearly worse than it should have... and then as nice as usual when their "middle priced" power cord was substituted.
My word for that: dishonest. If they can set up their system so that baseline condition is weak in a way that is fixed by their wires, they are cheating.
Everywhere retro was in style. Vinyl, of course. Tubes, of course. But single-ended Class-A triodes?
Ben
Many systems in rooms too large for them to play nicely. Some good sound, of course. A speaker with a horn impressed me with the value of having tweeter headroom. And the Martin Logans would warm the heart of any ESL person like me. Pity they can't get their crossover below 320 Hz.
Endless displays of expensive wires. As someone who thinks that's adulterated snake oil, a great waste of exhibitor space. One exhibitor was quite besides himself when I asked for measurements that show all these quantum-physics Brownian motion and other gremlins (all fixed by single crystal $1200 cables) are introduced.
I attended a long demo of the leading cable maker whose name I won't mention for reasons to be obvious soon. Whaddayaknow, pretty clear A-B comparisons. Quite clear when they played the CD I brought along. EXCEPT that when they played it using the OEM power cable to the CD player, it sounded clearly worse than it should have... and then as nice as usual when their "middle priced" power cord was substituted.
My word for that: dishonest. If they can set up their system so that baseline condition is weak in a way that is fixed by their wires, they are cheating.
Everywhere retro was in style. Vinyl, of course. Tubes, of course. But single-ended Class-A triodes?
Ben
Reading over my dyspeptic comments above, I'd like to say I did hear a fair amount of sound in browsing through the show that seemed to good quality, with emphasis on "browsing".
The useful discussion I'd like to raise is: how to make the most of such shows. Of course, that depends on your purposes because sampling new tech is a different purpose from auditioning to buy a certain kind of component.
I think a crucial element is bringing along a source you are familiar with. I carry a CD-R with some snippets (e.g. Holst's Band Suites with the anvil and very large drum, Widor organ, etc). But only two exhibitors were able to play it and maybe 8 more that I also asked that couldn't. I just don't know how to carry your music and that is a major shortcoming of TAVES-like events to me.
Attending Friday morning likely helpful in letting you sit down to listen at leisure without the pressure of crowds.
Wearing ear plugs during travel to show so your hearing is sharp (and avoiding some rooms that are too loud).
Ben
Footnote: here at DIYaudio, at least in the crowds I mix with in loudspeakers, speakers with passive crossovers seems unacceptably primitive. Everybody wants multi-amps with digital signal processing to EQ to the room and time-adjust the drivers. But at the show, the exhibitors are there to promote their complete "boxes", all ready for your music room. Being a consumer kind of person instead of a DIY kind of person is perfectly OK choice. But I think it is a reason why DIY builder visitors like me are not impressed by TAVES which is for consumers.
The useful discussion I'd like to raise is: how to make the most of such shows. Of course, that depends on your purposes because sampling new tech is a different purpose from auditioning to buy a certain kind of component.
I think a crucial element is bringing along a source you are familiar with. I carry a CD-R with some snippets (e.g. Holst's Band Suites with the anvil and very large drum, Widor organ, etc). But only two exhibitors were able to play it and maybe 8 more that I also asked that couldn't. I just don't know how to carry your music and that is a major shortcoming of TAVES-like events to me.
Attending Friday morning likely helpful in letting you sit down to listen at leisure without the pressure of crowds.
Wearing ear plugs during travel to show so your hearing is sharp (and avoiding some rooms that are too loud).
Ben
Footnote: here at DIYaudio, at least in the crowds I mix with in loudspeakers, speakers with passive crossovers seems unacceptably primitive. Everybody wants multi-amps with digital signal processing to EQ to the room and time-adjust the drivers. But at the show, the exhibitors are there to promote their complete "boxes", all ready for your music room. Being a consumer kind of person instead of a DIY kind of person is perfectly OK choice. But I think it is a reason why DIY builder visitors like me are not impressed by TAVES which is for consumers.
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Ben,
Just curious, is this your first attendance of show of this kind, which are targeting consumers. The main purpose is to showcase what kind of gears are available and how shiny and nice they look. Just to entice consumers. If you read show reports in the "audiophile" magazines, the reporters always put in a disclaimer that "it is difficult to obtain good sound under the show conditions". I gave up bring my own music sources to these show long time ago. Even though one has a chance to sit down and listen to your own music, the equipment are totally different the environment is totally different, what conclusion can one make?
Personally, I look at these shows the same way as all the "home show", "travel show" and "car show. These show have a lot of goods gather in one place, one can see whatever are available and in vogue. AS long as the admission price are reasonable, I do not mind supporting them.
Regards.
Just curious, is this your first attendance of show of this kind, which are targeting consumers. The main purpose is to showcase what kind of gears are available and how shiny and nice they look. Just to entice consumers. If you read show reports in the "audiophile" magazines, the reporters always put in a disclaimer that "it is difficult to obtain good sound under the show conditions". I gave up bring my own music sources to these show long time ago. Even though one has a chance to sit down and listen to your own music, the equipment are totally different the environment is totally different, what conclusion can one make?
Personally, I look at these shows the same way as all the "home show", "travel show" and "car show. These show have a lot of goods gather in one place, one can see whatever are available and in vogue. AS long as the admission price are reasonable, I do not mind supporting them.
Regards.
Lo_Tse - all wise comments. I've been to a few dozen shows since 1957 not to mention store demos, visiting friends, and time in the world's largest anechoic chamber of a former employer.*
You are wise to say the listening conditions don't support close auditing. But some of the exhibitors had rooms small enough and sometimes treated. Many of the rooms had ceiling arrangements that helped the sound.
But there are substantial parts of the sound picture that can be assessed, such as the transient snap-crackle-and-pop of classical percussion music (which was on my CD-R) or, as almost every exhibitor played, fingers making incidental noises on the steel strings of guitars (.... OK, on recordings with excessive boosts in the high-presence range). Likewise, I suppose, for pop female vocalists that many use for reference, although not my cup of tea. But if playing a large Mahler symphony is your goal, as it is for me, not the place for auditing.
Ben
*how fondly I recall hearing Dayton-Wrights ESLs for the first time at the Royal York show around 1970, after salivating over Janzen tweeter ESL for years with the New York audiophile club, a revelation to hear full-range ESLs.
You are wise to say the listening conditions don't support close auditing. But some of the exhibitors had rooms small enough and sometimes treated. Many of the rooms had ceiling arrangements that helped the sound.
But there are substantial parts of the sound picture that can be assessed, such as the transient snap-crackle-and-pop of classical percussion music (which was on my CD-R) or, as almost every exhibitor played, fingers making incidental noises on the steel strings of guitars (.... OK, on recordings with excessive boosts in the high-presence range). Likewise, I suppose, for pop female vocalists that many use for reference, although not my cup of tea. But if playing a large Mahler symphony is your goal, as it is for me, not the place for auditing.
Ben
*how fondly I recall hearing Dayton-Wrights ESLs for the first time at the Royal York show around 1970, after salivating over Janzen tweeter ESL for years with the New York audiophile club, a revelation to hear full-range ESLs.
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Best use of time at TAVES this year was the ~30 minutes spent at the Gerr Audio table discussing the Audio Precision gear on display. One way or another budget for a APx515 is finding its way into a 2016 capital project at work.
Most frustrating use was auditioning open back planar headphones in the noisy, reverberant environment of the front hall. Hifiman demoed their new flagship development model, sounded like great music + loud conversations in a hotel lobby.
Agree on the sound in the Tidal room. Passing in front of their very widely spaced flagship speakers in a very large room I was struck by the sense of 'another room' they created behind them. Unfortunately, like the Mark Jones/Magico display, another excellent demonstration of quarter million dollar (?) gear.
Ben,
I agree with you that some of the room are better treated than others and one can actually enjoy the sound. I really enjoyed the Audio Excellence room with the Wilson speakers (not sure whether you spent any time in there). The room was very well treated, peter McGrath played a track filled with strong attack of mid base (probably 40-80 Hz)(I think it is some kind of electronic/synthesized music). There was only a slight vibration on the walls. Very clean and clear sound. Once can hear the fast transient and felt the beat of the music. Mind you one of the 10$ oil painting hanging on the side wall did rattle a bit. Some male vocal blues track (no instrument, just vocal) was also played to very a good effect. I managed to have 10 minutes of enjoyment in this room.
The Audio Alchemy room is another example of well treated room although the smaller version of the Kef Blade playing there still could load up the room.
Typically, in these shows, I like to listen to tracks with high dynamic contrast and contain fast transients. As you pointed out, things like plucking of the guitar strings, snarl of the cymbal, fast sliding of the bow of a violin over the strings, are quite revealing of the behaviour of the equipment, particularly the speakers. I also like to hear how the speakers (and amp) sound when played at loud levels. Quite often a system sounds fine when played at relatively low levels. But when the volume is cranked up, things start to fall apart - the sound stage collapses, the instruments start to coalesce, thing became "smear together". To me this is the biggest difference between OK and good gears.
Regards,
I agree with you that some of the room are better treated than others and one can actually enjoy the sound. I really enjoyed the Audio Excellence room with the Wilson speakers (not sure whether you spent any time in there). The room was very well treated, peter McGrath played a track filled with strong attack of mid base (probably 40-80 Hz)(I think it is some kind of electronic/synthesized music). There was only a slight vibration on the walls. Very clean and clear sound. Once can hear the fast transient and felt the beat of the music. Mind you one of the 10$ oil painting hanging on the side wall did rattle a bit. Some male vocal blues track (no instrument, just vocal) was also played to very a good effect. I managed to have 10 minutes of enjoyment in this room.
The Audio Alchemy room is another example of well treated room although the smaller version of the Kef Blade playing there still could load up the room.
Typically, in these shows, I like to listen to tracks with high dynamic contrast and contain fast transients. As you pointed out, things like plucking of the guitar strings, snarl of the cymbal, fast sliding of the bow of a violin over the strings, are quite revealing of the behaviour of the equipment, particularly the speakers. I also like to hear how the speakers (and amp) sound when played at loud levels. Quite often a system sounds fine when played at relatively low levels. But when the volume is cranked up, things start to fall apart - the sound stage collapses, the instruments start to coalesce, thing became "smear together". To me this is the biggest difference between OK and good gears.
Regards,
@rdf
I was trying to check out the Fiio DAPs with the Grado phones they provided. It was almost impossible due to the location. It was just too noisy. All the "booths" in that open corridor suffered from the same issue.
I was actually quite surprised to see that Wynn Audio returned. It has exhibited in TAVES for a number of years, and every year a very large room was booked. Do not get me wrong, Wynn always put up a good show. I just wonder how many of their systems have been sold, with the price tags in the 6 figures.
Regards,
An E18 KUNLUN paired with either an EX1 or Grado GR10 are part of my standard monitoring kit at work, with an X5 v1 at home for leisure, so this was an 'anything new?' visit. Big fan of Fiio product.
Hopefully TAVES figures this out next year and picks a more appropriate setup. This was very much a step down from the King Ed shows. Even the Tidal guy apologized for their room, pointing out the back wall was a divider fronted with portable backdrops. Presumably a serious client would get a much better demo. Were many of the truly impressive systems under $100k? In addition to the above, the Wilson, Magico and Logan rooms were memorable. I wasn't as big a fan of the Mundorf sound and multiple visits suggested stalwart Bryston's speakers weren't winning attendees over. The room was nearly empty every time.
Did anyone else catch the demo by the Russian (?) inventor canvassing investors? The equipment was a piezo rested on what appeared to be a car woofer/flocked enclosure, tied to a bundle of toggle switches mounted on plastic Bud boxes. One of the switches caused the high end to pop in and out dramatically, 'demonstrating' his claim to to have resolved the problem of rising high frequency impedance in drivers. I didn't stick around long enough to learn why low amplifier output impedance no longer worked or how a piezo represents a normal HF load. Maybe next year.