Trends Audio TA-10: Modding Potential?

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Re: Re: Head to Head with Krell!

dweekie said:


Did you compare the krell to the newest amp with sanyo 1500uf caps and bennic input caps? Or did you compare to the original or other modified designs? Either way, I'd expect the krell to perform much better, but I was just curious since you did make a very recent comparison.

Oh, I just saw your previous post that has all the specs.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1096976#post1096976
 
TA-10 vs. Krell

Hi,

The head to head was done to see how near or far an inexpensive T-Amp would be from a known reference. We did it because we could :D as I was visiting, and we knew how good the Krell was. I would love to try a brawnier class D amp, but having had a look around, the Hypex UCD modules seem to be the only ones that offer the sort of grunt to match 200WPC into 8 Ohms. Once you start upping the power, the price curve rises rapidly too. Maybe TA-2020 or UCD400 is the best bang for the buck????

Cheers

Jon
 
jonclancy,

Are you really shure your Trends are OK after the fire ? I would have expected them to be nearer to the Krell than 40-100 by my comparison. You would be listening a bit selective I think. But the 40 is of course a very subjective measure. To 'listen' to music I hold this amp high.

/Erling
 
Hi!

The score of 40 is subjective, and was suggested by my brother in law - and I agreed with it when we discussed our listening experiences. It is his Krell, but I know he is not *that* biased!! ;) I suppose it wasn't about what was there in the TA-10 presentation (lots of GOOD things!), but what wasn't there when compared to the Krell. There were elements of the Krell presentation that the TA-10 hinted at, but were delivered by the bigger amp with more control and timbre. For instance, the definite difference between a bass note "beat" and a kick drum or a cymbal that is presented in the mix, rather that separated by itself with the "atmosphere" around it. There is no doubt that 200 WPC available to the Krell plays a large part in all of this - even acknowledging the principle of the First Watt being the most important etc. The Krell would seem to "suck" the sound back when a bass note finished; the TA-10 had less grip. A good example is the deep notes at the end of David Gray's White Ladder Track 1 "Please Forgive Me". There is a definite clean cut end to a bass note, rather than a softer end to it.

As I said earlier, we found the mids and top end to be pretty good in comparison, and certainly no embarassment for the little amp.

Bottom line: I still think it's a great little amp and the sound is still 8+ / 10. The 40 Index to the Krells 100 doesn't mean the TA-10 only makes it to 40. Index 40, in this case, is a pretty good score. My Arcams I would only rate at around 30 - 35, and a pretty mid-fi offering such as my reasonable sounding (and award winning) Denon DM30 as around Index 15. The Krell is really a very nice amp - I have yet to hear 300b SET or the AX, though.

I hope this makes more sense of my earler post - I won't get a job writing audio reviews!! :D

Cheers

Jon
 
jonclancy,

Thanks a lot for your comment. I don't have Krells or any other fancy stuff but I clearly remember one demo I had with the Krell and Sonus Faber Cremona speakers. In this demo Diana Krall stood out as nearly touchable by you. When playing the same record now at home with Trends TA-10 and B200 OBs I am in the very neigbourhood of the Krell/Cremona presentation. You can't really touch her but the way she stand out is simply great. By the way I also play the Trends in Amp-mode.

/Erling
 
bass lacking in TA10

I've got a couple of TA10s - I'm not a modder (yet) but was interested in this thread and there is one thing I want to improve with the TA10. I've currently got it hooked up to some Quad 11Ls - c. 86dB I think and I've tried it with speakers up to c.90dB, and the bass seems lacking. I haven't listened to the basic T amp for a while, so my memory may be fuzzy, but the TA seems to run out of steam in the bass as quickly as the basic did.

I love the mid and upper frequences, the sweetness of higher frequencies, detailing etc etc - and given my speakers are not the most sensitive, it sounds pretty good dynamically. It's just that bottom end. I even managed to hook it up to an active sub trough its speaker terminals and the lack of low frequencies passed to the sub was so noticeable, I initially thought I hadn't turned the sub on.

So, had a few questions:

1. What would the best mod/mods be to make the bass deeper and louder? Remember I'm a novice.
2. I used to run the basic T amp (unmodded) of a 13 Volt supply without ever frying a chip. Would it be just as safe, do you reckon, to do the same with the TA10?
3. Is the Super T much better in the bass and does it still have the sweetness of the TA10?

thanks

Chris
 
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Re: bass lacking in TA10

Hi Chris.

jtaytay said:
but the TA seems to run out of steam in the bass as quickly as the basic did.

Not a chance! The TA-10 is much stronger in the bass for 2 reasons. Better power supply (onboard caps) and bigger input caps (2.2uF vs 0.3uF)

The 2 amps do use the same chip and you are running the same voltage, so you are starting at the same point, but the stock Sonic is quite bass shy.

I love the mid and upper frequencies, the sweetness of higher frequencies, detailing etc etc - and given my speakers are not the most sensitive, it sounds pretty good dynamically. It's just that bottom end.

It's hard to get good bass out of a 6 watt amp. ;) That's why this T-Amp/Triode school of Hi-Fi likes efficient speakers. You need to be in the mid 90s, even more is better. I have no lack of bass with my 4 ohm 95dB/2.83 volt speakers. In fact, I find the TA-10 to have more bass than some more powerful amps.

With lower efficiency speakers you will still get that sweet mid and high end you like, but you will miss the bass and the dynamics.

I even managed to hook it up to an active sub trough its speaker terminals and the lack of low frequencies passed to the sub was so noticeable, I initially thought I hadn't turned the sub on.

I'm surprised it worked at all! Because of the "floating" speaker outputs of the Trends and Sonic, it's not a good idea to hook the speaker out to a sub amp. You might damage one or both. Sounds like you didn't, though. It's going to depend on the sub amp.


1. What would the best mod/mods be to make the bass deeper and louder?
More efficient speakers. :D
But for the amp, a stronger power supply. That can mean adding caps inside the amp.

2. I used to run the basic T amp (unmodded) of a 13 Volt supply without ever frying a chip. Would it be just as safe, do you reckon, to do the same with the TA10?
Safer. The TA-10 has better cooling. The Sonic has almost none.
3. Is the Super T much better in the bass and does it still have the sweetness of the TA10?

Much better? Hmmm.... That's going to be system dependant, of course. I do find the Super-T better in bass and dynamics than the TA-10. But the difference is not huge, at least in my system. Remember, it's the same amp chip. Midrange and highs are much better on the TA-10.

Hope that answers some questions. Not to come down hard on you, but these little flea amps really need efficient speakers to shine. That's just the laws of physics.
 
Now if only someone could do a comparison between the trend and the charlize....

My future plans are:

Charlize in a box with a good pot (PEC) or stepped attenuator .

Maybe a tubalizer?

Is it difficult to change the input caps and the power caps on the charlize? or is it trough the hole like the trend?
 
The Charlize, AMP3/6 and Audiodigit use the TA2021 chip which is a more powerful chip than the TA2024C. I wonder why none of those use film caps instead of electrilytical caps for input caps.

The idea TA-10 amp would be for it to use the TA2021 chip with a more powerful power supply. Not everyone is a DIYer, so if they want to hit the retail market and be a sucess it has to be plug and play ! Look at all those Home Theatre opportunities they can have if they have a 5.1 channel amp at this price. The general Joe Blow can now get a "good looking" 5.1 channel amp from Sony, JVC and Quest for under $200 with 400W of power, none of them in the right mind will pay for a 30w 2 channel flea amp when they can get a gadget laden one for about the same cost.
 
Don't get me wrong, I prefer refinement and details over vast amount of power, but the general thinking in today's society (middle class consumers) is the higher the numbering moniker the better, take for example CPU speed and hifi sytems full of buttons and flashing LEDs, it satifies all the other senses except the sense of what it was intended for ...your ears !
 
The Charlize uses the 2020 chip, it has 7 wpc of undistorted power in 8 ohms.... about the same as the 2024 (trend)

The first watt is the most important... My room is only 4x4 meters and the Hawthorne silver irises are 96db/8ohm , so don't need much more than 1/2 watts.

The reason I ask is because several people say the 2020 amps are more musical, but I haven't found a comparison between those and this trend based on the 2024.

If getting the charlize is not worth it , I'll recase this amp and put in a better pot + input switch.
 
Panomaniac

I'm really grateful for advice which helps a lot. To be honest, I'm delighted at what you say regarding the bass and the need for more sensitive speakers.

I've got some speakers that I like, but your advice gives me just the excuse I need to look to getting a pair of very high efficiency speakers :) And I'd love to hear what the tA10 can do with such an easy load. With this in mind, and working within a limited budget, do you have any particular suggestions. I was teetering on the brink, a while back, of getting some audio nirvana drivers and trying to building my own, but I keep an eye on ebay for other options. I can go up to £250 before I'd need to sell existing hifi stuff to make way for replacements.

I'm going to hook up a stock T amp to my system to remind myself how it sounded and, in particular, to compare the bass on that with what I'm now getting. Don't know whether it would have made a difference, but I was using a 13volt 7amps supply for that rather than 12 volts 3 amps for the TA10.

regards

Chris
 
Received mine today with a broken off power switch.
I don't think it makes sense to send the amp back to Hong Kong and have the power switch replaced so I will probably replace it myself.
My question is if anybody knows how to bypass function of the power switch so I can at least test it and see if the amp is working.
I assume there must be a way to have it powered on permanently without using the power switch.
Suggestions are much appreciated.
Thnx - Robert
 
They sure have some quality problems. Mine was missing a soldering joint in the integrated/power amp switch. This I of course could easily correct myself after taking out the board but I informed Trends and had an apologizing letter from David. This is a pity because the amp is really good and you should not stamp something as OK if it is not.

What happens to the cap shoot out ? I think it is a brilliant idea.

/Erling
 
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Chris

Speakers. Two clichés come to mind.
There is no free lunch.
Size does matter.


This is a looong post, so read at your own risk. :dead: :dead:

Lets back up for a minute. Back to the middle of the last century when tube amps ruled. Back then there were not the big powerful amps we have today and the fairly powerful 30W tube amps were just coming on the market.

(Talking speakers may seem like posting in the wrong forum, but hey, what are amps for? Amp design is driven more by speaker design than you might think – and visa versa.)

To get good levels out of the tiny power amps of the first half of the past century speakers needed to be efficient, and they were. Some of the Western Electric and Vitaphone systems filled huge movie palaces with a few watts. Look up the Western Electric 15A horn, for example.

At home, amps didn't even have the power of the small cinema amps. So efficient speakers were need there, too. But there is a problem with efficiency. The more efficient a driver, the less bass it tends to have. So those efficient drivers need to go in big, or really bug, cabinets. And they did. And they sounded great.

Then came stereo. Now you needed two big cabinets. How are you going to fit those in the living room? And now they need to be placed symmetrically for a good stereo image. :xeye: The old mono cabinet could just go in the corner.

In the Golden age of Hi-Fi, there were some great home speakers built that didn't need gobs of power. Think of the Altec, Klipsch, Tannoy and other such speakers of the 1950s - early 60s.

But not everyone can afford those big boxes, either in money or in space, especially space. So onto the scene come the more powerful tube amps, lead by the Williamson and its kin. Now speakers could get smaller. To get bass out of a small speaker, you need power- now we have power. And most people want small speakers. So powerful amps and small speakers started to sell. They fit better in the living room and kept the wife from griping.

But the big box highly efficient speakers were not entirely forgotten. There was a Hi-Fi underground of triode amps and high efficiency speakers that survived - mainly in Japan and France. Fullrange drivers were part of the cult. That’s where I discovered it, in Paris in the mid 80s.

The low power/high efficiency school of Hi-Fi began to take hold in North America in the 90s. Don’t know when it spread to the rest of Europe and Asia, maybe earlier?

So here we are with our flea powered T-Amps in much the same boat as the Triode lovers. Many of us like both styles of T-Amps, Triode and T-Amp. But with power this low, speakers are going to be very important to a satisfying musical experience. That means high efficiency, and high efficiency means big cabinets, at least if you want bass.

On the flip side, there are many music lovers who don’t really care for big sound- big speakers, but are very happy with mid size drivers and cabinets of the fullrange flavor - powered by flea amps. They can do very, very well on some types of music. Large orchestras are not one of those musical types. =) I’ve owned and loved fullrange drivers in TQWT type boxes. Beautiful stuff for all but the biggest music.

So where does that leave us in speaker choice for this type of amp? Stuck, a little.
But there are some nice designs out there now, to buy or to build yourself. Thanks in great part to the knowledge shared on the Web.

Go over to the FullRange Forum and look at the BIB speaker concept. Really simple to build, but tall. It’s a design that’s gaining a lot of fans. A simple way to get big sound out of a small driver and amp. What’s more, they are meant to go ina corner or near the wall, so they don’t take up too much floor space.

Have a look at http://www.zillaspeak.com/zillaspeakspeakers.asp for some BIB ideas.
 
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robert1325 said:
The reason I ask is because several people say the 2020 amps are more musical, but I haven't found a comparison between those and this trend based on the 2024.

I like the 2020, but a lot of the sound has to do with power supply and other off board parts.

Get a Charlize or other 2020 amp. Don't like it? Sell it!
Or you might bi-amp with it if you like the 2024 more in the highs and the 2020 more in the lows. Best of both worlds. :)
 
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