Vern,
Some here has reported that by adding a big cap, the sonic quality from Charlize turn to bad. However some do reported to have good result. I believe it's a matter of system matching and also the quality of the cap. used....There is no sure answer for it.
On the turn on 'pop' sound, Yeo has put up a soft start circuitry at his web-site. The circuit will 'cure' the issue.
Some here has reported that by adding a big cap, the sonic quality from Charlize turn to bad. However some do reported to have good result. I believe it's a matter of system matching and also the quality of the cap. used....There is no sure answer for it.
On the turn on 'pop' sound, Yeo has put up a soft start circuitry at his web-site. The circuit will 'cure' the issue.
Re: Re: 2 questions for the forum
PSU input - as shown here:
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/nuukspot/decdun/t_amps.html
barfind said:
PSU input - as shown here:
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/nuukspot/decdun/t_amps.html
panomaniac said:
Vern, I started with 10,000uf. My speakers are 99db, and it just sounded to slow. Without any caps it has great rythym and pace, but using OB, I never noticed much difference in the bass. Just speed. Mine is powered by an SLA though. It not that hard to try, maybe worth some investigations to find what suits your system.
Nigel
Changed last night from a 5 amp 12 volt smps wall-wart to a 7 amp 13.8 volt fully regulated supply with a 1F car capacitor.
Input voltage is now 13.4, with a sag of 0.1v on sustained load passages.
Bass is certainly tighter, with more detail on some tracks (Youssou N'dour's 'Macoy', Jah Wobbles' 'Viking Funeral'), but less emphasis on others (overtones on the Genie's voice from Roger Water's 'Three Wishes').
Definitely more dynamic - the slam on Chuck E Weiss's Al Johnson wedding track is noteworthy, and more detailed (possibly accounting for the Roger Water's issue). Well defined detail on Leonard Cohen's 'Tower of Song', but seems to have subdued the growl in his voice somewhat.
At the present time I don't know how much of this is due to increasing the input voltage from 12 to 13.4, and how much is due to the lumpen capacitor (when mains is disconnected the capacitor drives Charlize for > 3 minutes, and the amp is still working when the cap voltage display stops at around 10 volts).
I don't believe I've had this level of bass from my EX3's without using a sub.
Input voltage is now 13.4, with a sag of 0.1v on sustained load passages.
Bass is certainly tighter, with more detail on some tracks (Youssou N'dour's 'Macoy', Jah Wobbles' 'Viking Funeral'), but less emphasis on others (overtones on the Genie's voice from Roger Water's 'Three Wishes').
Definitely more dynamic - the slam on Chuck E Weiss's Al Johnson wedding track is noteworthy, and more detailed (possibly accounting for the Roger Water's issue). Well defined detail on Leonard Cohen's 'Tower of Song', but seems to have subdued the growl in his voice somewhat.
At the present time I don't know how much of this is due to increasing the input voltage from 12 to 13.4, and how much is due to the lumpen capacitor (when mains is disconnected the capacitor drives Charlize for > 3 minutes, and the amp is still working when the cap voltage display stops at around 10 volts).
I don't believe I've had this level of bass from my EX3's without using a sub.
Nice post Keith,
The EX3s are a speaker that might not respond well to a higher damping factor. But you did hear general improvements. That 5A SMPS should have been pretty solid, too.
For me, the big caps sound better, even on headphones. More dynamic, more bass punch, tigheter bass, much wider soundstage.
But they don't seem to work well in some systems. Must depend on the speaker driver and the box.
Have you listened to the SMPS with the 1F cap? Could be interesting. Would like to know what you think after running the system for a few days with the big cap, then removing it.
The EX3s are a speaker that might not respond well to a higher damping factor. But you did hear general improvements. That 5A SMPS should have been pretty solid, too.
For me, the big caps sound better, even on headphones. More dynamic, more bass punch, tigheter bass, much wider soundstage.
But they don't seem to work well in some systems. Must depend on the speaker driver and the box.
Have you listened to the SMPS with the 1F cap? Could be interesting. Would like to know what you think after running the system for a few days with the big cap, then removing it.
power upgrade
Since setting up my Charlize I had a feeling that there's something not quite right with the bass - too boomy. I use it to drive a pair of B&W CDM1NT, which are bookshelves and only reach down to 60hz, so I couldn't really place my finger on it.
Today I listened to it drive a bigger member of the family - the B&W Nautilus 802. Now it was clear - the bass has a veil, it's sloppy.
It seems to me that there's not enough power to properly control the bass drivers. I decided to upgrade power - to begin with, I replaced my 12V 2.5A smps with an 13.5V 3.8A smps.
This helped, but not enough - some more power and depth, but still not precise.
Then I added 2 electrolytic caps in parallel on the power inputs - 4700uF and 10000uF. This worked very nicely - much more precision, depth and presence.
The improvement is more noticeable than the power supply change (I switched back to check). There may be a price in dryness - losing some sparkle in the mid-high region, but I'm not sure.
Conclusions:
- The input caps are highly recommended.
- The power supply upgrade less so, although it also makes a difference.
Questions:
- my cap combination is pure guess. I don't really know anything about this. Should I try other caps? Other combinations? Bigger? Smaller?
- I'm still not sure I'm not losing details in the mid region. Not sure why. Anything I can try to improve that? Better internal cabling maybe?
- Anybody know why I would get a pop when I start to play, when the amp is already on but idle for a while?
Since setting up my Charlize I had a feeling that there's something not quite right with the bass - too boomy. I use it to drive a pair of B&W CDM1NT, which are bookshelves and only reach down to 60hz, so I couldn't really place my finger on it.
Today I listened to it drive a bigger member of the family - the B&W Nautilus 802. Now it was clear - the bass has a veil, it's sloppy.
It seems to me that there's not enough power to properly control the bass drivers. I decided to upgrade power - to begin with, I replaced my 12V 2.5A smps with an 13.5V 3.8A smps.
This helped, but not enough - some more power and depth, but still not precise.
Then I added 2 electrolytic caps in parallel on the power inputs - 4700uF and 10000uF. This worked very nicely - much more precision, depth and presence.
The improvement is more noticeable than the power supply change (I switched back to check). There may be a price in dryness - losing some sparkle in the mid-high region, but I'm not sure.
Conclusions:
- The input caps are highly recommended.
- The power supply upgrade less so, although it also makes a difference.
Questions:
- my cap combination is pure guess. I don't really know anything about this. Should I try other caps? Other combinations? Bigger? Smaller?
- I'm still not sure I'm not losing details in the mid region. Not sure why. Anything I can try to improve that? Better internal cabling maybe?
- Anybody know why I would get a pop when I start to play, when the amp is already on but idle for a while?
Re: power upgrade
Have you correctly connected the outputs? The correct way to connect is as indicated here on the photo:
http://diyparadise.com/charlize.html
Because of the differents holes for + and - (square and circle) with right output and left output, it could be a source of mistake.
I had a doubt with the photo when i first connected my charlize and i reverse + and - on a way. The bass were very boomy. It was ok when i connected as the photo.
vern said:
Have you correctly connected the outputs? The correct way to connect is as indicated here on the photo:
http://diyparadise.com/charlize.html
Because of the differents holes for + and - (square and circle) with right output and left output, it could be a source of mistake.
I had a doubt with the photo when i first connected my charlize and i reverse + and - on a way. The bass were very boomy. It was ok when i connected as the photo.
Have now tried various 12v smps; 13.8v @3a (true output 13v); 13.8v @ 7a (true output 13.4v) - the last two with & without 1F cap.
Increasing the voltage seems to improve dynamics and bass, but this could just be down to otherwise indeterminate increases in output level.
All the smps I've tried introduce residual noise, although I have to put my ear up to the speaker to hear it on the majority of units.
Use of the cap tightens up the bass, but I'd describe the effect on mid-highs as increased harshness rather than loss of sparkle.
I'm probably demonstrating my naivety here, but I presumed the impact of a high vaue cap would be to reduce residual noise (if any), and to act as a fast access power reservoir.If this is the case, possibly Class D require a reasonably sloppy psu to smooth out stepping?
One things for sure, I've never played with an amplifier where psu mods can make so much difference to the output.
Two things I need to do:
Firstly, dust off my 'scope (can't remember if I have a differential probe - never needed one before). Shouldn't need a diff probe to look at psu supply though.
Secondly, get a pair of less efficient speakers out of storage, normal listening levels require < 1 watt at present.
Thirdly, build a connector to check out smsp + cap.
Increasing the voltage seems to improve dynamics and bass, but this could just be down to otherwise indeterminate increases in output level.
All the smps I've tried introduce residual noise, although I have to put my ear up to the speaker to hear it on the majority of units.
Use of the cap tightens up the bass, but I'd describe the effect on mid-highs as increased harshness rather than loss of sparkle.
I'm probably demonstrating my naivety here, but I presumed the impact of a high vaue cap would be to reduce residual noise (if any), and to act as a fast access power reservoir.If this is the case, possibly Class D require a reasonably sloppy psu to smooth out stepping?
One things for sure, I've never played with an amplifier where psu mods can make so much difference to the output.
Two things I need to do:
Firstly, dust off my 'scope (can't remember if I have a differential probe - never needed one before). Shouldn't need a diff probe to look at psu supply though.
Secondly, get a pair of less efficient speakers out of storage, normal listening levels require < 1 watt at present.
Thirdly, build a connector to check out smsp + cap.
Hi Keith, only a few components, active or passive, stand between your supply and your speakers, so I'm not surprised you hear the differences you do with your psu. Large capacitance on the output of any supply increases energy available on a sustained basis (a plus), but introduces other problems. The worst of these problems, IME, arises from the ugly distortions---particularly dielectric absorption, IMO---capacitors introduce to any AC signal, which PSU fluctuations comprise. The most effective method of reducing these distortions is to use better quality capacitors, which means greater size + greater price.
Today I received a 12A smps for my Charlizes .... alas, I now have two which I will use to biamp my speakers. Both will be run from the smps, replacing the linear bench supply that was precariously powering my Charlize until now. I'll be able to report on how the smps sounds in a few days. I did power it up, though, and it ran fine .... stayed between 12.331 and 12.344VDC for the 20 minutes it was plugged in. Seems impressive enough for a $25 unit.
Today I received a 12A smps for my Charlizes .... alas, I now have two which I will use to biamp my speakers. Both will be run from the smps, replacing the linear bench supply that was precariously powering my Charlize until now. I'll be able to report on how the smps sounds in a few days. I did power it up, though, and it ran fine .... stayed between 12.331 and 12.344VDC for the 20 minutes it was plugged in. Seems impressive enough for a $25 unit.
Ok, system's running and no smoke. I am now running two Charlizes biamping a pair of Totem Mite speakers. Music source is my computer ---> outboard DAC ---> Charlizes. Everything is powered from a large Elgar line conditioner in my basement (including my computer, cough .... wow, you should see how quickly my keystrokes now register) which feeds electricity to the lot through a large balanced toroid. The Charlizes are fed by a single SMPS, a 12A unit that so far seems to be working ok.
Initial sonic impressions are mostly favourable. Channel separation is obviously better, as is power. High frequencies are a bit harsh, but the power supply, and other components I recklessly soldered between the power supply and the Charlizes, are new and need breaking in. Depending on the quality of this SMPS, the sound might not improve in the next few days. We'll see. I might in the end prefer a linear supply.
Has anyone used a Charlize with a non-regulated linear supply?
Initial sonic impressions are mostly favourable. Channel separation is obviously better, as is power. High frequencies are a bit harsh, but the power supply, and other components I recklessly soldered between the power supply and the Charlizes, are new and need breaking in. Depending on the quality of this SMPS, the sound might not improve in the next few days. We'll see. I might in the end prefer a linear supply.
Has anyone used a Charlize with a non-regulated linear supply?
Here it is, a picture of the project about an hour before I completed it. Some of my best work so far (cough) .... stapled, screwed, tied and glued to the underside of my desk. What a fright. And having the speakers sitting directly above the amps, the absolute highest vibrational coupling, short of bolting the amps to the speakers themselves, is assured. I'll probably put a layer of sorbothane under the speakers to mitigate this circumstance somewhat. The smps, for its part, is similarly bolted to the desk underside about one foot outside the picture.
Attachments
Greeting all. Thanks Tom for the pic. Ouch! That must have been hard.
I have a general question for all you that use power your Charlize with some form of power supply other than battery. While I was trying different setups I found that the Charlize sounded better without any form of supply rail caps. I tried different values, but any cap slowed the amp down. Pace and rythyem was not as good, transient response was down, and dynamics were also not as good.
The conclusion I came to was that a battery can supply power quicker than any cap.
So, Have you tried battery power?
I realise that different systems will yeild different results, but I was just interested to hear your thoughts
Nigel
I have a general question for all you that use power your Charlize with some form of power supply other than battery. While I was trying different setups I found that the Charlize sounded better without any form of supply rail caps. I tried different values, but any cap slowed the amp down. Pace and rythyem was not as good, transient response was down, and dynamics were also not as good.
The conclusion I came to was that a battery can supply power quicker than any cap.
So, Have you tried battery power?
I realise that different systems will yeild different results, but I was just interested to hear your thoughts
Nigel
Hi Nigel,
I have yet to try battery, mainly 'cos I tend to consider them as big, slow caps - think about it, there's a chemical reaction involved, bound to be slow response to change.
However I've decided that the operative word here is power. A battery can, within operational limits, sustain an increased requirement for power, whereas a cap will only have an impact where a voltage change occurs, hence the description of 'tightening' bass - a cap will have a positive impact where a voltage sag occurs on the attack, but could even have a negative impact on the decay. End result more 'slam' less sustain.
I've come to the conclusion that the reason psu design is so significant with class D amps is due to their efficiency. No output means little current draw, so either a psu with the ability to react rapidly to change (smps) or one which will initially respond quickly and then sustain the power requirement (battery) are better options than a traditional psu.
What size battery do you use, and how long does a charge last? I don't switch my system off, so I'd require some form of multi-battery use <-> recharge cycle (probably using a three way switch for on-line/on-charge;on-line/on-line;on-charge/on-line).
Regards,
Keith
I have yet to try battery, mainly 'cos I tend to consider them as big, slow caps - think about it, there's a chemical reaction involved, bound to be slow response to change.
However I've decided that the operative word here is power. A battery can, within operational limits, sustain an increased requirement for power, whereas a cap will only have an impact where a voltage change occurs, hence the description of 'tightening' bass - a cap will have a positive impact where a voltage sag occurs on the attack, but could even have a negative impact on the decay. End result more 'slam' less sustain.
I've come to the conclusion that the reason psu design is so significant with class D amps is due to their efficiency. No output means little current draw, so either a psu with the ability to react rapidly to change (smps) or one which will initially respond quickly and then sustain the power requirement (battery) are better options than a traditional psu.
What size battery do you use, and how long does a charge last? I don't switch my system off, so I'd require some form of multi-battery use <-> recharge cycle (probably using a three way switch for on-line/on-charge;on-line/on-line;on-charge/on-line).
Regards,
Keith
barfind said:Greeting all. Thanks Tom for the pic. Ouch! That must have been hard.
I have a general question for all you that use power your Charlize with some form of power supply other than battery. While I was trying different setups I found that the Charlize sounded better without any form of supply rail caps. I tried different values, but any cap slowed the amp down. Pace and rythyem was not as good, transient response was down, and dynamics were also not as good.
Hi Nigel, yes, quite a project having, incidentally, SuperWAF.
I suspect any discussion regarding the utility of rail caps and how much if any and what type etc will probably garner no consensus given 1) any benefits associated with rail caps will come with costs 2) the relative value of which are somewhat subjective and 3) also system dependent. Battery power gets you off the mains, that endless source of grunge and dirt. But batteries, like Keith says, generate electricity via a chemical reaction, which reaction takes time and might be likened, in a sense, to a (probably slow) feedback loop: a requirement for electricity will of necessity precede the battery's generation of that electricity. I'd also be surprised that a battery's electrical functioning doesn't create a host of noise problems.
Serge of Audio Consulting has experimented with battery power and might be willing to share his thoughts about batteries, which sound better than others, etc. My setup, using smps, sounds quite good, though I have some difficulty thinking a $25 smps is the last word in power supplies.
Anyone see any value in PFC for a Charlize smps?
because he is waiting on some ta2020 chips. I guess it must be really popular... So I won't be getting it for maybe a while 
. I hope it'll be worth the wait.hi hara
sorry about this. this is yeo here.
we got screwed by tripath. they committed early jan, then delayed the date till march!
after some "hair dryer treatment" from us, they say late mid jan now.
one thing for sure though, i won't take in new orders until the chips are in hand.
sorry about all this.
donjuan
sorry about this. this is yeo here.
we got screwed by tripath. they committed early jan, then delayed the date till march!
after some "hair dryer treatment" from us, they say late mid jan now.
one thing for sure though, i won't take in new orders until the chips are in hand.
sorry about all this.
donjuan