Hi everyone ! I would like to know if this would be a good idea to power-up 2 mid-range drivers rated a 800W (8Ohm each) plugged in parallel (so 1600W at 4ohms if I don't mistake?) by an IcePower 1200AS2 classD amp.
I have read that the rule of thumb is to use an amp that provides 1.5x more the rated power of a driver, but this is the most powerful DIY solution I have found so far. From what I understand, the Icepower is rated 1400W at 4Ohm when I would need 1600W x 1.5 = 2250W, right ?
So on, my main question is if it would still be OK to use the Icepower in this situation event if under-rated for the drivers needs.
If no, would a workaround by applying a limiter on the DSP in order to protect the amp would be a solution ?
If still no, any other classD DIY module you advice ?
Specs of the 1200AS2 module :
- Output Power per channel 1 % THD+N, 20 Hz – 20 kHz 1200 W (4 Ω)
600 W (8 Ω)
- Output Power per channel 10 % THD+N, 20 Hz – 20 kHz 1400 W (4 Ω)
- Minimum load impedance 2.7 Ω
- Maximum amplifier efficiency –
- Maximum total amp+psu efficiency 80 %
- Supply voltage input 85-264 VAC
- Peak output current 38 A
- Dynamic range 129 dB
- Amplifier maximum output peak voltage per channel 100 V
- Output referenced idle noise (A-weighted) 25 µV
- THD+N 1W/1kHz 0.005 %
Thanks
I have read that the rule of thumb is to use an amp that provides 1.5x more the rated power of a driver, but this is the most powerful DIY solution I have found so far. From what I understand, the Icepower is rated 1400W at 4Ohm when I would need 1600W x 1.5 = 2250W, right ?
So on, my main question is if it would still be OK to use the Icepower in this situation event if under-rated for the drivers needs.
If no, would a workaround by applying a limiter on the DSP in order to protect the amp would be a solution ?
If still no, any other classD DIY module you advice ?
Specs of the 1200AS2 module :
- Output Power per channel 1 % THD+N, 20 Hz – 20 kHz 1200 W (4 Ω)
600 W (8 Ω)
- Output Power per channel 10 % THD+N, 20 Hz – 20 kHz 1400 W (4 Ω)
- Minimum load impedance 2.7 Ω
- Maximum amplifier efficiency –
- Maximum total amp+psu efficiency 80 %
- Supply voltage input 85-264 VAC
- Peak output current 38 A
- Dynamic range 129 dB
- Amplifier maximum output peak voltage per channel 100 V
- Output referenced idle noise (A-weighted) 25 µV
- THD+N 1W/1kHz 0.005 %
Thanks
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Hi
ok a midrange driver is a 15" Woofer...ok
you really want/need a PA amp? ..thd about 0,1 - 0,02 %
Yes if you request that power to that speakers not much DIY amp will handle this. The 800W rms are for sure for a short time and 130db max SPL is F** ing loud...yes in PA its needed.
I have no expereiance in PA but a crest factor in the music give you room to "save" power/energy. so please read this post by FF -
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/104822-favorite-threads-posts-class-forum-2.html#post5683013
he is well experienced in power supply and this calculation will give you an idea what you really need. normally a 700-1000 W amp will do this. important is the 4R stability - but this is per paper no problem with the icepower. But do not forget at this power level the heat will also be a big topic at Class D amp - idealy a efficiency is about 90% - that means a 1200W generates a dissapation of 120W !! ---- > so cooling = heatsink or fan - redundance fans...etc. is mandatory.
this commercial amp will do - less then 400 euro: (threads are existing here in the forum..)
Behringer NX6000D – Thomann Osterreich
chris
ok a midrange driver is a 15" Woofer...ok
you really want/need a PA amp? ..thd about 0,1 - 0,02 %
Yes if you request that power to that speakers not much DIY amp will handle this. The 800W rms are for sure for a short time and 130db max SPL is F** ing loud...yes in PA its needed.
I have no expereiance in PA but a crest factor in the music give you room to "save" power/energy. so please read this post by FF -
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/104822-favorite-threads-posts-class-forum-2.html#post5683013
he is well experienced in power supply and this calculation will give you an idea what you really need. normally a 700-1000 W amp will do this. important is the 4R stability - but this is per paper no problem with the icepower. But do not forget at this power level the heat will also be a big topic at Class D amp - idealy a efficiency is about 90% - that means a 1200W generates a dissapation of 120W !! ---- > so cooling = heatsink or fan - redundance fans...etc. is mandatory.
this commercial amp will do - less then 400 euro: (threads are existing here in the forum..)
Behringer NX6000D – Thomann Osterreich
chris
How much power a driver can handle also depends on the box and frequencies played / xmax.
Do you already have the speakers?
As high power 2 way are not the best idea and 15" used as mid is also not the best idea. You will have to cross it over below or at 1kHz or you will lose off axis response.
https://www.beyma.com/speakers/Fichas_Tecnicas/000012802.pdf
Do you already have the speakers?
As high power 2 way are not the best idea and 15" used as mid is also not the best idea. You will have to cross it over below or at 1kHz or you will lose off axis response.
https://www.beyma.com/speakers/Fichas_Tecnicas/000012802.pdf
Thank you for your lights and directions chermann and Think !
- chermann I'll look into this and study what you sent here, happy to learn more
Think, I don't have the speakers yet but about to order them. The idea is to build a 2 way PA covering the frequency range from 45Hz to 20Khz with a crossover at 800Hz and using these CP-855Nd compression drivers https://www.beyma.com/speakers/Fichas_Tecnicas/000000664.PDF (in addition of the 2 Beyma 15P80Nd in each a 80L volume box).
as Bass/Midbass, I was also thinking using a pair of 15MC700 (https://www.beyma.com/speakers/Fichas_Tecnicas/000011500.pdf ) instead of the 15P80Nd, as they have an higher Xmax (9.8mm), but when doing the sims on Bassbox, I saw that putting maximum 1000W (8Ohm) on the 15P80Nd will not break them + I'll get extra SPL in the medium for the same power given.
I have already done the sims, happy to share them with you in order to be sure not going in the wrong direction
- chermann I'll look into this and study what you sent here, happy to learn more
Think, I don't have the speakers yet but about to order them. The idea is to build a 2 way PA covering the frequency range from 45Hz to 20Khz with a crossover at 800Hz and using these CP-855Nd compression drivers https://www.beyma.com/speakers/Fichas_Tecnicas/000000664.PDF (in addition of the 2 Beyma 15P80Nd in each a 80L volume box).
as Bass/Midbass, I was also thinking using a pair of 15MC700 (https://www.beyma.com/speakers/Fichas_Tecnicas/000011500.pdf ) instead of the 15P80Nd, as they have an higher Xmax (9.8mm), but when doing the sims on Bassbox, I saw that putting maximum 1000W (8Ohm) on the 15P80Nd will not break them + I'll get extra SPL in the medium for the same power given.
I have already done the sims, happy to share them with you in order to be sure not going in the wrong direction
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2 Way full range speakers often look a look better in specs and models then they sound in the real world. If you still want them you need to go active because you will not be able to cross over passively because of the impedance peak of the tweeter at 1.4kHz.
To me 2.1 is the way to go as optimal placement locations for woofers are different to the mids/highs (or tops in PA).
2 small tops with tweeter and 1x8" or 2x6" playing 100-200hZ and up and 2x 12/15" bass/subwoofers will easily outperform the 2 way speakers big time in sound quality (especially when the sound levels go up) and bass output. You get double the bass output (6dB) because the sub/bass-woofers stand on, and couple to ,the ground/floor and an other +6dB for every wall you place them at. (they love corners, but make sure your subs roll off (go sealed) as the walls/corners will compensate nicely on the low end, so you end up with a pretty flat response.
But more even more important then output is the sound quality improvement due to correct sub/basswoofer placement.
Have look at this recent topic: Advice for costy high quality & power sound system
To me 2.1 is the way to go as optimal placement locations for woofers are different to the mids/highs (or tops in PA).
2 small tops with tweeter and 1x8" or 2x6" playing 100-200hZ and up and 2x 12/15" bass/subwoofers will easily outperform the 2 way speakers big time in sound quality (especially when the sound levels go up) and bass output. You get double the bass output (6dB) because the sub/bass-woofers stand on, and couple to ,the ground/floor and an other +6dB for every wall you place them at. (they love corners, but make sure your subs roll off (go sealed) as the walls/corners will compensate nicely on the low end, so you end up with a pretty flat response.
But more even more important then output is the sound quality improvement due to correct sub/basswoofer placement.
Have look at this recent topic: Advice for costy high quality & power sound system
Got it Think, really happy to get your input, experience and mind on it.
I was planning to "fix" the flaws of this 2 way system with a fine MiniDSP tuning, but you make me realize it may not be the best solution.
Back to the maths and digging ^^ The idea is to use as less as elements as possible, get the best overall quality / spl as possible, and use the less electric Watts as possible, starting from 40/45Hz
I was planning to "fix" the flaws of this 2 way system with a fine MiniDSP tuning, but you make me realize it may not be the best solution.
Back to the maths and digging ^^ The idea is to use as less as elements as possible, get the best overall quality / spl as possible, and use the less electric Watts as possible, starting from 40/45Hz
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Good you gave it some thought.
I hereby confess that I once thought that many 12" full range drivers was the way to go. And am so happy I never build those!
Know that the one thing you can't change with DSP is off axis speaker response and that the baffle has a big influence on the off axis response. (round is best)
All sound will we off axis and the on axis measurement you often see in specs are just 1 point exactly in front of a driver/speaker.
For what kind of use is your sound system and what drivers does it have?
I hereby confess that I once thought that many 12" full range drivers was the way to go.
And am so happy I never build those! Know that the one thing you can't change with DSP is off axis speaker response and that the baffle has a big influence on the off axis response. (round is best)
All sound will we off axis and the on axis measurement you often see in specs are just 1 point exactly in front of a driver/speaker.
For what kind of use is your sound system and what drivers does it have?
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Hi,
it seems you are completely new to PA?
You want to do music for 500-800 people?
Where are you located? This is important for the sources you can use.
What is you budget?
Which music to you need to play?
Do you have a small truck to transport your PA.
Do you have a dry room to store it?
What happens if your set -up stops working, while 800 people are around?
The better you reply to these questions, the better some one will be able to answer.
it seems you are completely new to PA?
You want to do music for 500-800 people?
Where are you located? This is important for the sources you can use.
What is you budget?
Which music to you need to play?
Do you have a small truck to transport your PA.
Do you have a dry room to store it?
What happens if your set -up stops working, while 800 people are around?
The better you reply to these questions, the better some one will be able to answer.
No, sorry, you did not answer these questions at all.
So, maybe for some obvious reason you don´t want to.
OK, as you consider a miniDSP as something to use in a 800PAX situation, you have no idea what PA is about. That´s for sure.
I suppose your budget is close to zero and you will not even have enough $ to buy the spare amps and x-overs such a PA needs, just for fixing a defect during an event.
You have no idea how to transport all that stuff you would need. No driving license, maybe? You will not get all of that gear at your bike trailer.
Just one more question, as you are under 18 years old I suppose, who is going to operate the PA, when you have to go to bed, at 10 PM?
People that do 500+ People events charge some serious money, if you are looking for that, yes. This is because of their investments, repairs, running costs and the pay off for learning a profession.
The usual way is to learn a job, and then, when you have some experience, start your own business, maybe.
If that is to much fuzz for you, OK, learn the hard way... but you won´t get far. Promised.
So, maybe for some obvious reason you don´t want to.
OK, as you consider a miniDSP as something to use in a 800PAX situation, you have no idea what PA is about. That´s for sure.
I suppose your budget is close to zero and you will not even have enough $ to buy the spare amps and x-overs such a PA needs, just for fixing a defect during an event.
You have no idea how to transport all that stuff you would need. No driving license, maybe? You will not get all of that gear at your bike trailer.
Just one more question, as you are under 18 years old I suppose, who is going to operate the PA, when you have to go to bed, at 10 PM?
People that do 500+ People events charge some serious money, if you are looking for that, yes. This is because of their investments, repairs, running costs and the pay off for learning a profession.
The usual way is to learn a job, and then, when you have some experience, start your own business, maybe.
If that is to much fuzz for you, OK, learn the hard way... but you won´t get far. Promised.
Turbowatch don't be so hard on enthusiasts. It is good to have a reality check and to share experience but keep the fun.
If audio companies were doing their job this forum would not be so successful. I have heard about 25 bigger systems last year from houseparty to jazz festival; most were not setup properly and none sounded great.
Multiple location tops and subs creating a comb-filtering horror show seems to be very popular around here; they have no clue what they are doing and don't seem to care as long as they get paid.
Audiences also don't seem to complain even though they can't hear what the singers/performers are singing.....
TS: did you have a good look at all audio stuff being at a party this size? You for sure will need many subwoofers as you will need about double the amount compared to indoors.
You need to be well informed, have a good plan and budget otherwise it will only cost you money without results.
If audio companies were doing their job this forum would not be so successful.
I have heard about 25 bigger systems last year from houseparty to jazz festival; most were not setup properly and none sounded great. Multiple location tops and subs creating a comb-filtering horror show seems to be very popular around here; they have no clue what they are doing and don't seem to care as long as they get paid.
Audiences also don't seem to complain even though they can't hear what the singers/performers are singing.....
TS: did you have a good look at all audio stuff being at a party this size? You for sure will need many subwoofers as you will need about double the amount compared to indoors.
You need to be well informed, have a good plan and budget otherwise it will only cost you money without results.
@Think
If there is someone with no clue and his head in the cloud´s, who does not want to answer logical questions, how can you help him?
There is sometimes a compromise between "what I want" and "what I can". But you have to share information.
when I was a student, I was a permanent club guest. Quite expensive.
With a friend of mine, we studied the clubs PA that sounded best to us and then build our own mobile version from at that time expensive first name brand parts..
After just one summer we had the invest back, as the sound quality at our party´s was as good as in the best clubs and better than at most. We did not have to make any advertising, just had our cards at the DJ table.
So maybe I know a bit about that stuff and how to start at zero.
If you do open air, you have two options: Really a whole lot of gear or a limited space, 4-point dance floor, with four sub´s and four high mid satellites.
Today in a civilized country, you have the problem not to be to loud in a certain distance, making things much more complicated. So the one stage version is getting more critical, as the long throw usually gives problems. So the round version gets more interesting for smaller events (sub 1000PAX is small).
PS The most stupid cost´s we miscalculated where the wires to the loudspeakers at that time. Even at the first event, we had a spare amplifier. Never needed one, but more than one party, done by others, ended, when the amp blew. HIFI gear is no PA gear...
If there is someone with no clue and his head in the cloud´s, who does not want to answer logical questions, how can you help him?
There is sometimes a compromise between "what I want" and "what I can". But you have to share information.
when I was a student, I was a permanent club guest. Quite expensive.
With a friend of mine, we studied the clubs PA that sounded best to us and then build our own mobile version from at that time expensive first name brand parts..
After just one summer we had the invest back, as the sound quality at our party´s was as good as in the best clubs and better than at most. We did not have to make any advertising, just had our cards at the DJ table.
So maybe I know a bit about that stuff and how to start at zero.
If you do open air, you have two options: Really a whole lot of gear or a limited space, 4-point dance floor, with four sub´s and four high mid satellites.
Today in a civilized country, you have the problem not to be to loud in a certain distance, making things much more complicated. So the one stage version is getting more critical, as the long throw usually gives problems. So the round version gets more interesting for smaller events (sub 1000PAX is small).
PS The most stupid cost´s we miscalculated where the wires to the loudspeakers at that time. Even at the first event, we had a spare amplifier. Never needed one, but more than one party, done by others, ended, when the amp blew. HIFI gear is no PA gear...
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Turbowatch2, I trust 100% your experience and I will not reinvent the wheel here for sure.
I'm also sure it will not be perfect as it would be building my second system (see below), and correct me if I'm wrong, but the aim of this post/forum is also to educate, save time, energy and money regarding audio systems hobbyists and/or professionals. That's the reason why I'm trying to educate myself as much as possible and avoid as much as mistakes before putting my hands in the wood. But I clearly understand why you are asking these questions.
I haven't been accurate in my answers because I don't want to go into sides/off-topic discussions, which is event organization, logistics and other subjects that I believe are out of spectrum/not relevant to this discussion (event if they are at some extend).
So to answer your questions :
- It would be my second PA system (what I've built so far is a 1 sub / 2 mid-ranges / 2 top system)
- yes I have a dry storage
- I'm located in France/Spain
- Budget : 2000E for the audio elements. 1000E for the dsp + amp (thinking about miniDSP + Icepower)
- Type of music : from Reggae/DUB to Electronic/Techno
- I have a small truck to transport the PA
- If the setup stop working, that's clearly my problem, but the idea is to choose the right hardware in order to happen as less as possible, and if possible, never.
- I'm over 18
I would just like to keep focusing on the first problematic of the topic, which is :
- Choice of the amp > Icepower / Behringer / something else ? I aim quality, reliability and stability.
- Choice of the drivers > according to Think, Im now shifting and studding the solutions from a 2 way system (2 mid-bass + 2 tops) to a kind of a 2.1 one (2 bass + 1 mid + 2 tops)
So thank you for your input, I don't want to build many systems but only one that would be compact, qualitative, and powerful enough to cover 500 people outdoor in an open field, that would already be a great achievement !
-
Think I want to deeply thank you for your diplomacy, balance and directions again, BLESS
I'm also sure it will not be perfect as it would be building my second system (see below), and correct me if I'm wrong, but the aim of this post/forum is also to educate, save time, energy and money regarding audio systems hobbyists and/or professionals. That's the reason why I'm trying to educate myself as much as possible and avoid as much as mistakes before putting my hands in the wood. But I clearly understand why you are asking these questions.
I haven't been accurate in my answers because I don't want to go into sides/off-topic discussions, which is event organization, logistics and other subjects that I believe are out of spectrum/not relevant to this discussion (event if they are at some extend).
So to answer your questions :
- It would be my second PA system (what I've built so far is a 1 sub / 2 mid-ranges / 2 top system)
- yes I have a dry storage
- I'm located in France/Spain
- Budget : 2000E for the audio elements. 1000E for the dsp + amp (thinking about miniDSP + Icepower)
- Type of music : from Reggae/DUB to Electronic/Techno
- I have a small truck to transport the PA
- If the setup stop working, that's clearly my problem, but the idea is to choose the right hardware in order to happen as less as possible, and if possible, never.
- I'm over 18
I would just like to keep focusing on the first problematic of the topic, which is :
- Choice of the amp > Icepower / Behringer / something else ? I aim quality, reliability and stability.
- Choice of the drivers > according to Think, Im now shifting and studding the solutions from a 2 way system (2 mid-bass + 2 tops) to a kind of a 2.1 one (2 bass + 1 mid + 2 tops)
So thank you for your input, I don't want to build many systems but only one that would be compact, qualitative, and powerful enough to cover 500 people outdoor in an open field, that would already be a great achievement !
-
Think I want to deeply thank you for your diplomacy, balance and directions again, BLESS
Sorry, 3000 Euros and 500 people plus Beyma and ICE power plus reliable, No. This is not the money to buy such a system, but the rent for one evening. Go to your local "rent a PA store" and talk to them. They can make you an offer and show you what kind of system you need.
If you are lucky, you can buy the wires and construction parts to rig up the PA for your money. Such a PA does not run on batteries and Bluetooth and you can´t just throw all your gear on the ground. Maybe go to such an event and have a look what kind of additional stuff you need, ignoring amps and loudspeakers. Maybe then you will see the reality about the simple task to build up and run a PA for 500 people. Think about another problem: You only got a few hours to build up all that stuff and even less time to remove it trace less from the location. Why don´t you go to some PA rental or event agency and ask for a part time job? This way you earn good money and learn. Such ventures always need tough people to help for an evening. If you already know a lot about PA, even better!
Good luck!
PS go to Thomann.de and look what they offer as complete PA packages. You can switch the side to English. They got the best deals in Europe, if you consider P&P.
If you are lucky, you can buy the wires and construction parts to rig up the PA for your money. Such a PA does not run on batteries and Bluetooth and you can´t just throw all your gear on the ground. Maybe go to such an event and have a look what kind of additional stuff you need, ignoring amps and loudspeakers. Maybe then you will see the reality about the simple task to build up and run a PA for 500 people. Think about another problem: You only got a few hours to build up all that stuff and even less time to remove it trace less from the location. Why don´t you go to some PA rental or event agency and ask for a part time job? This way you earn good money and learn. Such ventures always need tough people to help for an evening. If you already know a lot about PA, even better!
Good luck!
PS go to Thomann.de and look what they offer as complete PA packages. You can switch the side to English. They got the best deals in Europe, if you consider P&P.
@Turbowatch: Like you I also spend a lot of time in clubs in the 90's, and house parties (big, outdoor, all night long). In hind sight, I might be a bit spoiled with decent PA setups.
I highly disagree with you with the 4 corner dancefloor and subwoofers setup, unless they are 30+ meter a part from each other.
Are you sure you don't have Thomann stocks? I looked at their offers but could not find anything I would like to use for 500 people. Got a suggestion?
@suparub: Thank you and great you took it so lightly.
I'm not sure you get the 2.1 thing right. It means 2 (top) speakers, left and right and these are often 2 way; mid + tweeter. And the .1 stands for 1 mono bass/subwoofer.
But to be clear I would go for left and and right, 2 way (top) speakers which contain tweeters and mids which crossover between 100 and 200Hz to the subwoofers which all get a mono signal and are acoustically coupled to the floor (and wall(s) if there are any) and to each other, so they all act as 1 big sub.
Is the 500 people as in 500 people at a party with 100 people on the dancefloor and 400 socializing around it, or 500 people at a dancefloor raving their buts off?
That is about a factor 3 in difference for how much amps and speakers you need.
A difficulty you get is that regular speakers are not powerful enough and most speakers don't stack well. Only stack vertically like a line array, NEVER!!! horizontally. Using a second speaker upside down on the first one works best, but then you are limited to 2 on each side. That is where line arrays and horns (synergy?) get interesting.
I highly disagree with you with the 4 corner dancefloor and subwoofers setup, unless they are 30+ meter a part from each other.
Are you sure you don't have Thomann stocks? I looked at their offers but could not find anything I would like to use for 500 people. Got a suggestion?
@suparub: Thank you and great you took it so lightly.
I'm not sure you get the 2.1 thing right. It means 2 (top) speakers, left and right and these are often 2 way; mid + tweeter. And the .1 stands for 1 mono bass/subwoofer.
But to be clear I would go for left and and right, 2 way (top) speakers which contain tweeters and mids which crossover between 100 and 200Hz to the subwoofers which all get a mono signal and are acoustically coupled to the floor (and wall(s) if there are any) and to each other, so they all act as 1 big sub.
Is the 500 people as in 500 people at a party with 100 people on the dancefloor and 400 socializing around it, or 500 people at a dancefloor raving their buts off?
That is about a factor 3 in difference for how much amps and speakers you need.
A difficulty you get is that regular speakers are not powerful enough and most speakers don't stack well. Only stack vertically like a line array, NEVER!!! horizontally. Using a second speaker upside down on the first one works best, but then you are limited to 2 on each side. That is where line arrays and horns (synergy?) get interesting.
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PA is changing a lot these years, regulations and rising egoism restrict open air more and more each year. Traditional Festivals, which had reached the status of institutions, had to be moved or canceled, because single persons sued. Privately organized has to meet more and more regulations, in some places it is hardly impossible to do anything. This does change the way you have to bring music to large crowds. Maybe you are not aware of these changes.
Today it is becoming more usual to realize a homogeneous, constant sound pressure level over a limited space. Something you can not do wit FOH speakers.
But this may lead to far.
I have not looked at the Thomann pages recently, but I remember they used to do complete offers with amps, speakers, wires x-over and the like, dedicated to different crowd sizes. Anyway, they have a very good service and you can get honest offers if you ask. Sorry, I have no stocks in Thomann
Different PA people have different opinions what might be the best set-up for what occasion, this is part of the game.
I always try to be realistic, this might sometimes limit the fun in thinkering.
Today it is becoming more usual to realize a homogeneous, constant sound pressure level over a limited space. Something you can not do wit FOH speakers.
But this may lead to far.
I have not looked at the Thomann pages recently, but I remember they used to do complete offers with amps, speakers, wires x-over and the like, dedicated to different crowd sizes. Anyway, they have a very good service and you can get honest offers if you ask. Sorry, I have no stocks in Thomann
Different PA people have different opinions what might be the best set-up for what occasion, this is part of the game.
I always try to be realistic, this might sometimes limit the fun in thinkering.
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