#1 "More power does not mean better fidelity." - Understood. But ICG isn't understanding my " all things equal" hypothetical.
#2 "Dynamic range is the key. You can easily calculate it." Understood. Is ICG stating that power has zero influence on dynamic range?
#3 I think ICG means don't be fooled by advertising. If the advertising claims higher wattage, but with higher distortion, then it's going to sound worse than a lower wattage amp which has less distortion.
Understood. In my "all things equal" question, assume we're comparing two amps of different power at the same distortion.
#4 combines three different issues:
- Wattage does not matter AT ALL!
That's not explained.
- different listeners care about different things.
Understood. I'm asking about objective differences, including things I might or might not care about.
- don't be fooled by advertising (again). Advertising might claim certain wattage, but it's actual wattage might be different, depending on the impedance of the speaker.
Understood. My question assumes we're talking about two amps, where one delivers more watts than the other for a given speaker of given impedance.
#6 "Different chips do sound different. I.e. TDA 7498 amps vs TDA8932"
Understood. But those are two completely different chips, with completely different internal designs. As I've tried to clarify in this thread, assume we're talking about the exact same hypothetical chip, same topology, same configuration, same manufacturing process, same company, etc. Just different wattage.
#5 "Power ratings do NOT give any information on how it does sound."
Understood. But, ICG doesn't seem to grasp my hypothetical "all things equal".
A little sidenote: The main reason why people use amps that are more powerfull than their speakers can handle is security. If you overload an amp, it will burn very fast beyond repair. An overdriven speaker will sound bad, but in most cases stay undamaged if you lower the volume in a reasonable time. Therefor it's safer to have an amp that is too powerfull so it never runs out of steam.
But it's also true that a lot of amps (not all) sound better at half power than full power. The technical reasons for this i don't know, but that is what my (and many others also) experience tells us.
And other than some said here, with tube amps you can have a very strong and wel defined bass on low wattage if you use mid to high efficient speakers in the right (big) enclosure. With a solid state amp that is more difficult on low wattage (even with the same speakers). Class D is even worse than class A or AB in this. But as high power is cheap to get in that class, that is not an issue...
But it's also true that a lot of amps (not all) sound better at half power than full power. The technical reasons for this i don't know, but that is what my (and many others also) experience tells us.
And other than some said here, with tube amps you can have a very strong and wel defined bass on low wattage if you use mid to high efficient speakers in the right (big) enclosure. With a solid state amp that is more difficult on low wattage (even with the same speakers). Class D is even worse than class A or AB in this. But as high power is cheap to get in that class, that is not an issue...
Yes, except for those things which must be different in order to support the higher wattage.
I'm not knowledgeable enough to say. I don't know if all amps deliver different watts in the same way by changing the PS voltage.
I've noticed that one of my chips sounds distinctly different with a different power V (more distortion at lower V). Yet another one of my amps sounds the same (to my ears, anyway) at different Vs.
I don't know if a high power amp running at low V is equivalent to a smaller amp which was optimized for a lower power. I think a better comparison is both amps running at their intended V.
Then, i assume if you overdrive the amp shy of burning it, it's going to sound like crap, right? Even if your speaker can handle the power, right?
I think that's the headroom mentioned by another. Therefore, that right there is one of the benefits of more watts -- less distortion at high volume.
Great observation! It depends on type.
About your Class D comment-- will a higher wattage Class D deliver better bass than a lower wattage Class D of similar type, at the same volume level?
Your "side note" may be one of the most cogent answers in this thread
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Class D is even worse than class A or AB in this.
I disagree, many high end class D amps are very nice, from any power, EX: project, rotel, they are similar to tube amplifiers, more than many class AB amps.
Again, you cannot generalize, Accuphase has outstanding amplifiers, I demoed class AB and Class A only from that company, they are very neutral with plenty of deep bass, great amplifiers.
I disagree, many high end class D amps are very nice, from any power, EX: project, rotel, they are similar to tube amplifiers, more than many class AB amps.
Again, you cannot generalize, Accuphase has outstanding amplifiers, I demoed class AB and Class A only from that company, they are very neutral with plenty of deep bass, great amplifiers.
actually, i think waxx was comparing tube to solid state to class D at low volume, which isn't what i was asking.
What i want to say is that not every amp is equal, and that there is no universal law for what power is needed to run speakers to the max. There are big differences in how diferent amps work. This has to do with the topology, how the psu is made, what components are used, and what kind of speakers you are using in wich room.
Most of the numbers (watt, dB efficiency, ohm) give indications how to do it, not more. if you want it perfect, you need to experiment and measure (with ear and equipment) untill it's perfect.
What i say is that class D amps can't give a lot of bass on a few watts, not that they sound inferior in general. I know that a good modern class D amp with an overbuild (preferable linear) powersupply can be top level. I don't like them, but that is more personal maybe (i'm a tube amp guy). But it ain't crap anymore like 20-30 years ago when they were inferior to class a or ab (tubes or solid state). And for the right circumstances (High power systems or systems with limited space/current like cars or mobile devices) a class d is also the only choice for me that is reasonable.
But to get a solid and defined bass, class D amps (and class A or AB transistor amps in a lesser degree) need more than a few watt. If the right power is send to them, they are as good as tube amps on this, but on only a few watt they don't. I drive a fullrange setup with subwoofers going to 25Hz with ease with an 35watt tube amp and even at only 60dB (measured) volume in my living room, the bass is very present and defined. With my Marantz (AB Class) amp of 55w i can't do that, nor with a class d power amp.
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Hey, waxx, if you like tube amps, even with all objectionable possible philosophical opposition to class D concept, you have to agree, giving time and opportunity to listen to the best of them. that they are quite close to the best in tubes.
Tube amps give awesome bass on specific speakers, it is tricky for many tube amps. The speakers need to be tube friendly, and then yes, magic happens, that dead sounding tube amp sounds lively and like a thunderstorm on any driver size)))
Tube amps give awesome bass on specific speakers, it is tricky for many tube amps. The speakers need to be tube friendly, and then yes, magic happens, that dead sounding tube amp sounds lively and like a thunderstorm on any driver size
)))
More volts is better to give better transient response and headroom.
My first power amp sounded terrible if turned up, it had lots of distortion.
It had a low voltage supply.
So, the next one I made had +/-55VDC and that sounded really good even when played loud.
A lot of modern music is highly compressed but much classic music isn't and sounds much better with lots of headroom.
My first power amp sounded terrible if turned up, it had lots of distortion.
It had a low voltage supply.
So, the next one I made had +/-55VDC and that sounded really good even when played loud.
A lot of modern music is highly compressed but much classic music isn't and sounds much better with lots of headroom.
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