Tone control or loudness is something I have eliminated from my home power amps about 30 years ago, and I have never been sorry for that.
I worked as a film & video sound recordist and engineer for about that time or more, so I was able to compare the original sound to the recorded one. And of course the idea was to make the recorded audio sound as close to the original source as possible.
The problem was location audio, where sound picking and ambiance sound, including reverberations, were to be dealt with. Audio clarity was the task.
Things were quite different when you shot on a studio or recorded audio on a dubbing room.
The key for quality listening is mainly the room, which should be balanced between reflecting and absorbing areas.
Loudness is only needed if you listen at low levels, and only for that. And tone controls only compensate for poor speakers or poor recordings. Whatever else you add or take away depends only on personal taste, but you are modifying the job of the mixing sound engineer.
Just fix your listening room, particularly controlling reflections and use good speakers.
I worked as a film & video sound recordist and engineer for about that time or more, so I was able to compare the original sound to the recorded one. And of course the idea was to make the recorded audio sound as close to the original source as possible.
The problem was location audio, where sound picking and ambiance sound, including reverberations, were to be dealt with. Audio clarity was the task.
Things were quite different when you shot on a studio or recorded audio on a dubbing room.
The key for quality listening is mainly the room, which should be balanced between reflecting and absorbing areas.
Loudness is only needed if you listen at low levels, and only for that. And tone controls only compensate for poor speakers or poor recordings. Whatever else you add or take away depends only on personal taste, but you are modifying the job of the mixing sound engineer.
Just fix your listening room, particularly controlling reflections and use good speakers.
I'm thinking about getting the mono board that FF suggested in post #3. Browsed through other options and found this:
Aiyima TPA3116 High power Car Audio Amplifier Board Mono 150W TPA3116D2 Amplifiers Adopt Double Booster System Amplificador-in Amplifier from Consumer Electronics on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group
What kind of sorcery is this? Quite high numbers for this chip. Looking at the board, there's seems to be only one, but two additional heatsinks. And additional inductors, what are they for?
Aiyima TPA3116 High power Car Audio Amplifier Board Mono 150W TPA3116D2 Amplifiers Adopt Double Booster System Amplificador-in Amplifier from Consumer Electronics on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group
What kind of sorcery is this? Quite high numbers for this chip. Looking at the board, there's seems to be only one, but two additional heatsinks. And additional inductors, what are they for?
A very good question.
"DC12V=150W", "DC24V=150W", "Car Audio", "Double booster".
The "Car Audio" and the "DC12V=150W" hints they use a boost converter at the power supply input such that the supply voltage is a maximum disregarding the input voltage (car - 12V). The small battery shown in the connection diagram must be a symbolic joke.
Why "Double Booster" when one should be sufficient? And, why is the pretentious output power now up to 150W?
If we assume an absolute maximum of 26V supply for the chip (regulated) and 2Ohm loading, in theory 150W is possible. With peak currents of good 12Amp. If we can add the 7.5A max. output current (datasheet) from two outputs (PBTL), 12A peaks may be possible. The datasheet states acceptance of down to 1.6Ohm for PBTL operation.
But, why "Double Boster"? Perhaps because one converter cannot handle around 16A from a 12V input such that two are operating in parallel.
Seems like TPA3116D2 taken to an absolute maximum. Interesting, and well spotted!
"DC12V=150W", "DC24V=150W", "Car Audio", "Double booster".
The "Car Audio" and the "DC12V=150W" hints they use a boost converter at the power supply input such that the supply voltage is a maximum disregarding the input voltage (car - 12V). The small battery shown in the connection diagram must be a symbolic joke.
Why "Double Booster" when one should be sufficient? And, why is the pretentious output power now up to 150W?
If we assume an absolute maximum of 26V supply for the chip (regulated) and 2Ohm loading, in theory 150W is possible. With peak currents of good 12Amp. If we can add the 7.5A max. output current (datasheet) from two outputs (PBTL), 12A peaks may be possible. The datasheet states acceptance of down to 1.6Ohm for PBTL operation.
But, why "Double Boster"? Perhaps because one converter cannot handle around 16A from a 12V input such that two are operating in parallel.
Seems like TPA3116D2 taken to an absolute maximum. Interesting, and well spotted!
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This Aiyima amp seems to be bridged. The TPA3116 datasheet does not specify output power for 2 ohms, only up to 4 ohms, and just for 21v.
If you look at the curves, distortion climbs up to 10% suddenly at 50w, for 4 ohms and 24v supply. If bridging always increase distortion, by definition, getting 150W would have a high price in distortion.
Some months ago I bought this:
HIFI Class 2.0 Stereo Audio Digital Amplifier TPA3116 Advanced 2x50W JI 6132227728130 | eBay
And I can say one thing: if you stick to conservative building, like what they did on this amp, the audio quality is superb.
I have been using it on my main system, connected to high quality 2-way 8" speakers, and the audio is excellent. Though I never tested, or intend to, with higher than 30W levels into 8 ohms. No sudden distortion clips for me, which are not nice to hear and may also fry your tweeters.
If you look at the curves, distortion climbs up to 10% suddenly at 50w, for 4 ohms and 24v supply. If bridging always increase distortion, by definition, getting 150W would have a high price in distortion.
Some months ago I bought this:
HIFI Class 2.0 Stereo Audio Digital Amplifier TPA3116 Advanced 2x50W JI 6132227728130 | eBay
And I can say one thing: if you stick to conservative building, like what they did on this amp, the audio quality is superb.
I have been using it on my main system, connected to high quality 2-way 8" speakers, and the audio is excellent. Though I never tested, or intend to, with higher than 30W levels into 8 ohms. No sudden distortion clips for me, which are not nice to hear and may also fry your tweeters.
The tda3116 chip in my “Xinru” board pulled close to 100w @ 2ohms with just a 24v3A brick off 1970’s house 110v outside on my patio. FF has mentioned they are capable of 172w. If that board has 2 chips 150w @ 12v should be attainable with the right power circuit and buck boosters. Right? I wish Alibaba took Paypal...
Still learning, but I know what happened in my extreme abusive practices.
Still learning, but I know what happened in my extreme abusive practices.
I’d like to put that and the old Kinman 311x/tripath chips against this Lepai 2020ti I’m still running 4channel 8ohm with. See if there really is a difference. Nohing but clean power. And the volume is amazing. If I remember correctly when a fellow builder and I compared calculations with the supplied 12v wall wart the 2020ti was only putting out 9-12w. Enough sound for me, no distortion, and the chip without additional heatsink stays cool.
Fatfingers - Should read “72w,” now “172w.”
Having a hard time sourcing capacitors and diodes - help please, in the USA. Mouser and Digikey have horrible search engines. Seems many counterfeits and ridiculous prices. Also, does the voltage value on the diodes, type of diode matter? Shouldn’t there be 2 diodes per path after the capacitor (I keep seeing diagrams with + and - diodes)?
I just red the whole thread. Thx all for the awesome info.
Obviously I reached this place looking for info about the tpa3116 board and I would like your help reviewing my project.
We have been gifted with x4 bookshelf speakers, I couldn't find any additional info except for the label stating "30w rms, 8ohm". We are likely going to upgrade these.
As amplifiers I were ready to buy x5 TPA3116 mono boards but FauxFrench (ty Sir) advised not to get the ''330'' version. Five boards because one would be used for a possible subwoofer. I am not sold to mono boards, I would get these because the store where I am shopping at only have those.
As input I would like to able to use both a 3.5mm jack or bluetooth thanks to this receiver board.
Next one is this NE5532 pre-amp board. It requires a DC voltage and does have a low pass filter built in. What would you say about it?
Regarding the PSU, I am going to use a 24v and still have to figure out the amperage needed. I didn't get the ''4-8ohm swap'' topic very well, I am probably really tired atm. Assuming 50w/speaker at 8ohm, should I look for a 200w psu + subwoofer psu or should I get just one to power the whole system?
I am done for today, I hope you could help me.
Cheers
Obviously I reached this place looking for info about the tpa3116 board and I would like your help reviewing my project.
We have been gifted with x4 bookshelf speakers, I couldn't find any additional info except for the label stating "30w rms, 8ohm". We are likely going to upgrade these.
As amplifiers I were ready to buy x5 TPA3116 mono boards but FauxFrench (ty Sir) advised not to get the ''330'' version. Five boards because one would be used for a possible subwoofer. I am not sold to mono boards, I would get these because the store where I am shopping at only have those.
As input I would like to able to use both a 3.5mm jack or bluetooth thanks to this receiver board.
Next one is this NE5532 pre-amp board. It requires a DC voltage and does have a low pass filter built in. What would you say about it?
Regarding the PSU, I am going to use a 24v and still have to figure out the amperage needed. I didn't get the ''4-8ohm swap'' topic very well, I am probably really tired atm. Assuming 50w/speaker at 8ohm, should I look for a 200w psu + subwoofer psu or should I get just one to power the whole system?
I am done for today, I hope you could help me.
Cheers
With 24V supply and with the amplifier working at the clipping point you have a peak voltage of 24V (the full supply voltage) leaving an RMS voltage of just below 17V and a power of 35W in 8 Ohm. A class D amplifier works substantially as a Buck converter with a conversion efficiency above 80% so we assume 80%. 35W output from the amplifier then requires 35/0.8=44W from the power supply. With 24V that is a current of good 1.8A.
The traditional way of calculating the capacity of the power supply goes back to continuous power as used in the old HiFi norm (DIN45500/IEC??). It is a consistent way of determining capacity though it is a (very) worst-case approach assuming full power all the time. In reality with real music you can do with less capacity because the decoupling capacitors (storage) handle temporary power surges and leave the supply only to handle the average consumption.
We arrived at 1.8A per channel as long as you use 8 Ohm speakers or the double current, 3.6A, if you use a 4 Ohm speaker for instance for the sub-woofer. With five 8 Ohm speakers, you could add all the currents on a single supply which would then need a capacity of 9A. 10A is most likely much easier to find. You may also use a separate power supply for the sub-channel because the bass-power is the highest in music. That sub-channel power supply would then need 1.83A (2A) for an 8 Ohm speaker or 3.7A (4A) for a 4 Ohm sub-woofer. The four other channels you may feed from a single supply with a capacity of 7.5A (8A) or alternatively two-and-two from two 4A power supplies.
Why split up in more power supplies? First reason, because a sudden high consumption of one amplifier may make the voltage drop for a short moment which may be heard in other amplifiers on the same supply rail. Normal stereo amplifiers use a single power supply – high quality audiophile amplifiers sometimes use two (one per channel).
The choice sometimes is easy from what is available and the price. Two with half the capacity are sometimes cheaper than one with full capacity. I hope you are now able to choose.
The traditional way of calculating the capacity of the power supply goes back to continuous power as used in the old HiFi norm (DIN45500/IEC??). It is a consistent way of determining capacity though it is a (very) worst-case approach assuming full power all the time. In reality with real music you can do with less capacity because the decoupling capacitors (storage) handle temporary power surges and leave the supply only to handle the average consumption.
We arrived at 1.8A per channel as long as you use 8 Ohm speakers or the double current, 3.6A, if you use a 4 Ohm speaker for instance for the sub-woofer. With five 8 Ohm speakers, you could add all the currents on a single supply which would then need a capacity of 9A. 10A is most likely much easier to find. You may also use a separate power supply for the sub-channel because the bass-power is the highest in music. That sub-channel power supply would then need 1.83A (2A) for an 8 Ohm speaker or 3.7A (4A) for a 4 Ohm sub-woofer. The four other channels you may feed from a single supply with a capacity of 7.5A (8A) or alternatively two-and-two from two 4A power supplies.
Why split up in more power supplies? First reason, because a sudden high consumption of one amplifier may make the voltage drop for a short moment which may be heard in other amplifiers on the same supply rail. Normal stereo amplifiers use a single power supply – high quality audiophile amplifiers sometimes use two (one per channel).
The choice sometimes is easy from what is available and the price. Two with half the capacity are sometimes cheaper than one with full capacity. I hope you are now able to choose.
Your answer has been really helpful sir, I got it. What do you think about this pre amp board? It would make my life easier lol, what are the cons?
May you confirm this 10uH TPA3116 board is better than the 33uH one I planned to buy?
Should I add decoupling capacitors between AC-DC and amps?
May you confirm this 10uH TPA3116 board is better than the 33uH one I planned to buy?
Should I add decoupling capacitors between AC-DC and amps?
Hi
the reason why 10µH is "better" is because its recommended by the datasheet ! and the correct adaptation to your speakers impedance
(chinese use what they have ...they bought 33µH coils 10000 pcs. and the they mount it...)
chapter 6.3
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tpa3116d2.pdf
what decoupling between AC-DC you mean ??? decoupling means polarized caps. be carefully about the polarity
chris
Hi
the reason why 10µH is "better" is because its recommended by the datasheet ! and the correct adaptation to your speakers impedance
(chinese use what they have ...they bought 33µH coils 10000 pcs. and the they mount it...)
chapter 6.3
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tpa3116d2.pdf
what decoupling between AC-DC you mean ??? decoupling means polarized caps. be carefully about the polarity
chris
Now I saw that! thx
Btw I mean to put capacitors between DC output (from the AC-DC PSU) and amplifiers.
Sorry, my wife put me to work today -> late reply. Chris has already given you good advise.
The reason for me to prefer the board with 10uH chokes is the choke saturation current. The TPA3116 chip can in normal BTL-operation handle 7.5A peak current. On this board, the chip is connected in PBTL-coupling (parallel) and can probably handle somewhat more than 7.5A peak current (not really clear from the datasheet if the 7.5 A are for each output and can be added).
With the same size choke-core ( I know the cores are not identical but probably rather similar also in size), the more windings you put on the core the more inductance you get but the lower is the saturation current. For the nice small 33uH chokes on one of the boards you show, the saturation current is probably close to 3A (peak). For the other board with 10uH chokes, the 10uH chokes saturates probably around 5A (less windings, lower inductance but higher saturation current).
If you use your board with 8 Ohm speakers only, you have a peak current of 3A (24V supply). Just what the 33uH chokes can handle. If you use 4 Ohm speakers at least sometimes, the peak current is 6A. Just above what the 10uH chokes can do but much more than what the 33uH chokes can handle. The board with the 33uH is poorly dimensioned in the sense that it has a chip that can handle a lot of current (even work with loads down to 1.6 Ohm) but chokes that can only handle a fraction of the chip current. This is why I prefer the board with the 10uH chokes. I have one such board, where I had to correct a few silly mistakes in the board design (described in the thread), “Think” has more I believe and we are both happy with that board after correction. As Chris rightfully point out, the TPA3116 datasheet specify 10uH such that the chip can (easily) handle the increased carrier current in the filter.
Both the boards you show should be sold with 10A chokes mounted for a start. The manufacturers of cheap boards very often mount insufficient chokes in order to save money and make the boards more compact.
Chris is again right on extra power line decoupling capacitors – more will be better. For an amplifier to sound good it must have a stable (voltage) supply. To keep the voltage stable, you can either use big decoupling capacitors or a very fast reacting power supply (or a combination of the two). The power supplies we typically use (“bricks” or LED light SMPS) are not very fast because they are designed for a different and much less critical use but at least they are amazingly cheap. Then, we have to compensate for the mediocre supply speed with good size decoupling capacitors. I would add some 4700uF between the power supply and the amplifier. An amplifier is a very dynamic load changing the current consumption very quickly and a lot. For amplifier quick needs, the decoupling capacitors deliver current until the power supply wakes up and increases the supply current. If the decoupling capacitors are not sufficiently large, the voltage drops too much as the capacitors are discharged.
I just noticed the 33uH board, in mono and stereo version for a very low price:
XH M542 single channel high power digital audio power amplifier board TPA3116D2 mobile speaker amplifier 24V-in Electronics Stocks from Electronic Components & Supplies on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group
NEW XH M543 high power digital power amplifier board TPA3116D2 audio amplifier module Dual channel 2*120W-in Electronics Stocks from Electronic Components & Supplies on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group
You could in principle replace the output filter chokes with 10uH and the output filter capacitors with 1uF. But, another problem is that the heatsink seems glued to the TPA3116 chip and will be (very) difficult to remove. For the mono-board, the chokes can be replaced without removing the heatsink (you need to remove the capacitors first). For the stereo-board, removal of the heatsink seems necessary to get to the solderings located toward the heatsink.
I may buy one mono-board myself and try replacing the output filter. For that price little will be lost if I fail.
XH M542 single channel high power digital audio power amplifier board TPA3116D2 mobile speaker amplifier 24V-in Electronics Stocks from Electronic Components & Supplies on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group
NEW XH M543 high power digital power amplifier board TPA3116D2 audio amplifier module Dual channel 2*120W-in Electronics Stocks from Electronic Components & Supplies on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group
You could in principle replace the output filter chokes with 10uH and the output filter capacitors with 1uF. But, another problem is that the heatsink seems glued to the TPA3116 chip and will be (very) difficult to remove. For the mono-board, the chokes can be replaced without removing the heatsink (you need to remove the capacitors first). For the stereo-board, removal of the heatsink seems necessary to get to the solderings located toward the heatsink.
I may buy one mono-board myself and try replacing the output filter. For that price little will be lost if I fail.
Thx both, questions have been answered very well.
I am aware of the tweakes you made to correct the frequency, it doesn't seem a though job to do. I am going to get the 10uH version and maybe an additional 2 33uH just to play with.
Datasheet suggests 50v capacitors, should I be safe with 4700uF/25v ?
I am struggling to find the spare Meanwell drivers I use for my LED grow lights. I am using this cheap AC-DC converter in another application, I should't go cheap but I could try them maybe. I know you already answered about this kind of psu, gonna find the posts
As you will use 24V supply, 25V rating of the capacitors is in my opinion too little. 4700uF/35V is fine. I once worked in the aerospace area and there you never use full voltage rating due to the reduced lifetime near the voltage rating. Not all on this forum agree to the necessity of “de-rating” of the capacitor voltage.
I have the SMPS you show (150W) and the slightly bigger 180W. My 150W did not last long before I had to change the control IC. My 180W seems much more stable and is not much more costly.
AC DC Power Supply Module AC 100 240V to DC 24V max 9A 150w AC DC Switching Power Supply Board 24v ac dc adapter-in AC/DC Adapters from Consumer Electronics on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group
The above is actually 180W which you will see from the nominal current they state.