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Class D Switching Power Amplifiers and Power D/A conversion

The New Hypex Fusion Plate amps
The New Hypex Fusion Plate amps
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Old 20th April 2017, 07:36 PM   #111
Julf is offline Julf  Europe
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Originally Posted by scottjoplin View Post
You'll also need a special chair that clamps your head to appreciate your perfectly aligned system to it's full potential
Well, yes, considering one nanosecond corresponds to less than a thousandth of a millimeter.
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Old 20th April 2017, 07:41 PM   #112
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
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Originally Posted by bavmike View Post
Sounds like old fashioned passive based systems. With advanced DSP you can tune the system for perfect sound from any listening position
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz8RjPAD2Jk
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Old 20th April 2017, 07:46 PM   #113
Windforce85 is offline Windforce85  Poland
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Of course. You can give a man a Lamborghini, but this doesn't make the car is poor if he doesn't know how to drive it. Same with a laser for doing brain surgery.
Based on my limited knowledge, Bruno P. and affiliates (Kii, Grimm, etc.) could make great drive even from barn door

Did you read whitepapers on Grimm's site? Or eventually did you see DLCP datasheet? They all syncing their high end targeted DSP's to different-than-digital audio frequencies and that Ethernet interconnection, I suppose, is synchronising local oscillators in the PLL. Is there a place for errors? I think no, they probably know what they are doing. Unfortunately to DIY'ers, I can't see this Ethernet sync in these new Fusion amps so that is why it cannot be named as a "game changer" to me. Just ordinary DSP chip and syncing to external clock only, with a glimpse of new NCore amps which, indeed, are astonishig, I know that.

Last edited by Windforce85; 20th April 2017 at 08:01 PM.
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Old 20th April 2017, 07:59 PM   #114
bavmike is offline bavmike  Canada
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Originally Posted by Windforce85 View Post
Based on my limited knowledge, Bruno P. and affiliates (Kii, Grimm, etc.) could make great drive even from barn door

Did you read whitepapers on Grimm's site? Or eventually did you see DLCP datasheet? They all syncing their high end targeted DSP's to different-than-digital audio frequencies and that Ethernet interconnection, I suppose, is synchronising local oscillators in the PLL. Is there a place for errors? I think no, they probably know what they are doing. Unfortunately to DIY'ers, I can't see this Ethernet sync in these new Fusion amps so that is why it cannot be named as a "game changer" to me. Just ordinary DSP chip and syncing to external clock only, with a glimpse of new NCore amps which, indeed, are astonishig, I know that.

I have no doubt that they utilized the technology they are using to it's full capabilities. But I also have confidence the same great minds would be able to use superior technology to it's best ability as well. The clock sync advantage is only 1 of the several advantages to making these plates AES67 compatible.

I like the idea of simply plugging each speaker into an Ethernet cable and having it pop up as a sound device on my computer. You can run Ethernet cables through the walls, and install one of those wall plates with both AC and Ethernet jacks on them right behind each speaker. Simply plug in 1 Ethernet cable, and the AC cable to the wall behind the speakers and you're in business. 0.25ms latency from the VSC on the computer server, until the I2S outputs on the Dante Broadway chip. No Netflix sync errors to deal with or anything.

And there's no denying that having CMOS I2S being fed direct from the Dante chip to the inputs of the DSP mere millimeters away wouldn't be superior to using a server-USB cable-USB to AES/EBU bridge-PLL generated clock-XLR cable-PLL to I2S decoder chip- SRC chip-DSP. Then you can also use 1 master to clock the Dante chip, DSP and DAC chip in each plate.

Last edited by bavmike; 20th April 2017 at 08:09 PM.
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Old 20th April 2017, 08:10 PM   #115
Windforce85 is offline Windforce85  Poland
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It sounds good but unfortunately it rarely will meet consumer audio level, especially on audiophile market which still is dwelving into cable / capacitor dilemmas, rather than looking ahead technology progression so fast, that even big gamers like Hypex can't keep up to this. In combination with Fusions targeted to minor OEM's (yes, domestic and still 'audiophile') I can understand Hypex that there is no point in developing AES67 into that plates, unfortunately to us. They probably come up with something spectacular with their mysterious 2by4 adressed, I think, to big names in pro industry.
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Old 20th April 2017, 08:36 PM   #116
bavmike is offline bavmike  Canada
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Originally Posted by Windforce85 View Post
It sounds good but unfortunately it rarely will meet consumer audio level, especially on audiophile market which still is dwelving into cable / capacitor dilemmas, rather than looking ahead technology progression so fast, that even big gamers like Hypex can't keep up to this. In combination with Fusions targeted to minor OEM's (yes, domestic and still 'audiophile') I can understand Hypex that there is no point in developing AES67 into that plates, unfortunately to us. They probably come up with something spectacular with their mysterious 2by4 adressed, I think, to big names in pro industry.

Well AES67 is here to stay. It's a new standard adopted by the AES, to replace all of the old outdated standards. It's not going anywhere. I really don't see any advantage to being a late adopter.
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Old 21st April 2017, 03:41 AM   #117
bavmike is offline bavmike  Canada
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Then a dual DLCP, Grimm LS1 or Kii Three would not work either......

I've been studying how the Grimm LS1 does things. Similar setup, but done with very great care. The master clocks have a very low phase noise, and high stability. Then the link between the left and right channels is done with a high quality CAT 5 cable. So because of the great care taken, and high quality components used, the speaker clocking should be fairly even. But at the end of the day I don't see any measures to ensure perfect sync between the 2 clocks, like there is with IEEE 1588v2. It's basically putting 100% faith that the clocks are dead nuts and won't drift apart over time. I think the system could be improved upon using Ravenna. Also greatly simplified.
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File Type: png LS1 Flow diagram.PNG (157.2 KB, 531 views)
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Old 21st April 2017, 07:11 AM   #118
ChrisPa is offline ChrisPa  United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by bavmike View Post
It's basically putting 100% faith that the clocks are dead nuts and won't drift apart over time.
In a stereo pair of speakers, what would be the actual problem/effect of a minor long term drift in clock?

Within each speaker everything operates off​ the same stable clock.
I can't see why the equivalent of a very slow movement of one speaker should matter
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Old 21st April 2017, 12:21 PM   #119
bavmike is offline bavmike  Canada
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Default The New Hypex Fusion Plate amps

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Originally Posted by ChrisPa View Post
In a stereo pair of speakers, what would be the actual problem/effect of a minor long term drift in clock?



Within each speaker everything operates off​ the same stable clock.

I can't see why the equivalent of a very slow movement of one speaker should matter


When there's 2 master clocks timing the system, you don't have the natural flow the same as if you're using just 1 master clock. Each speaker is beating with a different heartbeat. When you take great care and use incredible clocks like in the LS1 it's not so bad. But if you're using cheap clocks it is. Even with clocks like the best Crystek's phase noise can vary up to 10db between them. Unless individually measured and perfectly matched you're playing Russian roulette. Clocks like what Grimm uses is a must. But if you combine clocks of that caliber, with the assistance of IEEE 1588v2, this is next best thing to having a single master clock possible circa 2017.

The holy grail is a single master clock, but there's a problem with having a single master clock in a active system like this. It's impossible to clock the DSP, and DAC chip's with only millimetres of PCB traces right before the amplifiers in each speaker. If you want to do things the very best way, you don't want to use PLL's. PLL's add major jitter, and you end up wasting a good clock. With IEEE1588v2, the PLL is only used to sync the clocks, and keep the hearts beating within a few nanoseconds of each other. It doesn't add any jitter as each DSP/DAC is still clocked CMOS direct off its own master.

This is my understanding anyways. But if someone much smarter than me wants to correct me, that's fine. There's a lot of folks on this forum who know far more about clocking than me.

Last edited by bavmike; 21st April 2017 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 21st April 2017, 12:43 PM   #120
Julf is offline Julf  Europe
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Originally Posted by bavmike View Post
When there's 2 master clocks timing the system, you don't have the natural flow the same as if you're using just 1 master clock. Each speaker is beating with a different heartbeat.
That would be the result of clock instability, not slow drift.
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