It may very well depend partly on your speakers, but with mine, the Parasound Halo A23 which run class A to 20ish watts sound identical to the ICEPower 250ASP's.
Given that, the 250s have 2x the power and 1/5th the wasted energy in heat.
Best,
Erik
Huge difference in class-D implementations
Hi,
There is a huge difference between the various class-D implementations. Far more noticeable then between various class-AB amps. There is no universal 'class-D sound'.
In my experience properly designed amps with the IRS 2092 / IRS-20957 and now the new TPA3251 it is hard to hear differences compared to a good class-AB amp. There might be some difference when the output level is very high, close to clipping.
On the other side, some of the older class-D chips have close to 1% distortion above 10 kHz and don't sound good in critical listening.
For the ready to use boards in the market, I like the 100% iraudamp7s clones, they sound good, don't black-out the neighbor's TV reception and have lots of power. Their noise level is a bit high so less suitable for very efficient speakers or near field listening but great for anything else. There are also a few really poor boards with the IRS-2092 available on-line, so some checking is needed before buying.
The TPA3251 has far less noise, but I'm not aware of any 'ready to use' boards with this chip in the market.
Hopefully helpful.
Hi,
There is a huge difference between the various class-D implementations. Far more noticeable then between various class-AB amps. There is no universal 'class-D sound'.
In my experience properly designed amps with the IRS 2092 / IRS-20957 and now the new TPA3251 it is hard to hear differences compared to a good class-AB amp. There might be some difference when the output level is very high, close to clipping.
On the other side, some of the older class-D chips have close to 1% distortion above 10 kHz and don't sound good in critical listening.
For the ready to use boards in the market, I like the 100% iraudamp7s clones, they sound good, don't black-out the neighbor's TV reception and have lots of power. Their noise level is a bit high so less suitable for very efficient speakers or near field listening but great for anything else. There are also a few really poor boards with the IRS-2092 available on-line, so some checking is needed before buying.
The TPA3251 has far less noise, but I'm not aware of any 'ready to use' boards with this chip in the market.
Hopefully helpful.
no differnce when listening music
class D and class AB 100% sure both same
but
scope analysis class AB is best
Sorry, your wrong.
Rather, a good digital is pretty good! but I'm sure that some one makes a crappy digital one too. I remember the early Jeff Rowland digital amplifiers. Great googly moogly. Compressed and sibilant to a point of being unbearable. This is like saying all women are better at politics than men. There's good men and bad women and all sorts in between.
I will say though that I'm trading in my good A/AB for ICEPower 250ASPs and in this case with these speakers, I hear no difference. However my tweeters are almost purely resistive. I could imagine situations with different tweeters or ESL's where the same might not be true. Still, I don't need to have amps that are perfect in every situation. Just so long as they are perfect here for me with my current speakers. Still, I would not be so arrogant, or unscientific, as to make such broad statements that all digital are better than all AB, or vice versa.
If you could assure me that digital amplifiers were free of human greed and stupidity it would make it easier to agree to your position though. That alone means I would expect quite a bit of variability in implementations. As far as I know, there really isn't much of an agreement as to what makes a Class D amplifier is there? Or are all those parts completely standardized?
But, when done well, for me right now, smaller, lighter and lower power consumption for same listening experience beats AB.
Best,
Erik
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Not really; A23 125W/ch@8 ohms and .06% THD; 250ASP is 130W/ch@ 8 ohms and 1% THD
Checked the specs. Actually you are quite right! Actually I'd say the 250 ASP is overrated based on the included charts. Still a win everywhere especially in crosstalk. I was actually wondering if I would get much better imaging since the A23's have kind of poor crosstalk figures, but no, same.
Actually I just did some reading. Apparently the ratings from B&0 are for the amps mounted "vertically in free air. Continuous output power can be improved by means of an external heat sink or forced convection"
It probably refers to the Power Specification chart alone which lists 90W as the maximum continuous output power. The Audio Specifications chart rates the output power as 130/250 and 300 Watts as the maximum at 8/4 and 2.7 Ohms respectively. A little heat sink grease and a fan and we can keep the party rolling!
Best,
Erik
It probably refers to the Power Specification chart alone which lists 90W as the maximum continuous output power. The Audio Specifications chart rates the output power as 130/250 and 300 Watts as the maximum at 8/4 and 2.7 Ohms respectively. A little heat sink grease and a fan and we can keep the party rolling!
Best,
Erik
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I wouldn't expect crosstalk to make any difference once it's better than 30 or 40 dB; imaging is much more dependent on the speakers, the room, and their placement therein.
"Interchannel crosstalk:
> 80 dB at 1 kHz;
> 63 dB at 20 kHz"
seems adequate to me, unless your unit is way out of spec
Noah
No, just that compared to other stereo amps I see 70 db or better at 20kHz. As others have pointed out it's not really an issue. I had been wondering if improving this would improve the imaging, and it did not.
Toni:
Yep, you are correct of course, but don't want to suffer the other active complexities. An outboard crossover is as much as I'll do. I have enough sets of cables and interconnects.
Best,
Erik
No, just that compared to other stereo amps I see 70 db or better at 20kHz. As others have pointed out it's not really an issue. I had been wondering if improving this would improve the imaging, and it did not.
Toni:
Yep, you are correct of course, but don't want to suffer the other active complexities.
An outboard crossover is as much as I'll do. I have enough sets of cables and interconnects. Best,
Erik
The TPA32xx series is much better in THD than the newest class AB products, like TDA7575
http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/389/tda7575b-957192.pdf
http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/389/tda7575b-957192.pdf
In my view it is not that simple.
The class D potential is shown by ICEPower and similar spin-offs. But, the price is very high.
Cheap class AB with very low THD can be found with TDA7850, TDA7294 and LM3886. Very good sound at an attractive price.
Some prefer valve sound.
The class D was mainly developed for commercial reasons (personal impression), in particular for portable electronics. Less cooling needed such that the amplifiers could be enclosed in the cabinets of sound-bars etc.
The problem of class AB heating is often exaggerated, in particular cost of the power ending up as heat.
Could "the best" amplifier be agreed upon, we would need much less (types of) amplifiers in this world and this forum would have much less to discuss.
For me it is like good whiskey: you can tell a much better from a clearly inferior, but, with two good ones it is a matter of taste.
TPA32xx is no doubt very good, but, can the market be persuaded to spend that much more money than what the TPA3116 can offer? The large majority of customers won't notice the difference unless in direct comparison.
TI can make the TPA32xx mainstream by lowering the price and it will replace the TPA3116/TPA3118 in many applications.
The class D potential is shown by ICEPower and similar spin-offs. But, the price is very high.
Cheap class AB with very low THD can be found with TDA7850, TDA7294 and LM3886. Very good sound at an attractive price.
Some prefer valve sound.
The class D was mainly developed for commercial reasons (personal impression), in particular for portable electronics. Less cooling needed such that the amplifiers could be enclosed in the cabinets of sound-bars etc.
The problem of class AB heating is often exaggerated, in particular cost of the power ending up as heat.
Could "the best" amplifier be agreed upon, we would need much less (types of) amplifiers in this world and this forum would have much less to discuss.
For me it is like good whiskey: you can tell a much better from a clearly inferior, but, with two good ones it is a matter of taste.
TPA32xx is no doubt very good, but, can the market be persuaded to spend that much more money than what the TPA3116 can offer? The large majority of customers won't notice the difference unless in direct comparison.
TI can make the TPA32xx mainstream by lowering the price and it will replace the TPA3116/TPA3118 in many applications.
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I don't agree that ICEpower and spin-offs are expensive.
This is Hypex - and remember you get all connectors available and a nice box. It's quite hard to build something with cheap chinese boards and same power, that is much cheaper, and can you find a used amp it's imposible. Why do we build - it's a fun hobby
IMG Stage Line STA-800D digitaler PA-Verstärker / Digitalendstufe - SOUND SYSTEMS
This is Hypex - and remember you get all connectors available and a nice box. It's quite hard to build something with cheap chinese boards and same power, that is much cheaper, and can you find a used amp it's imposible. Why do we build - it's a fun hobby
IMG Stage Line STA-800D digitaler PA-Verstärker / Digitalendstufe - SOUND SYSTEMS
FauxFrench:
I have and have tried several different implementations of tpa3116, have not liked any of them. They are cheap, but if done right you are quickly approaching the price of a good tpa3250.
The tpa3250 is much better. There is no comparison. I consider the tpa3116 stuff to be over hyped, the tpa3250 on the other hand is a great starting point most people would be happy to live with.
I have and have tried several different implementations of tpa3116, have not liked any of them. They are cheap, but if done right you are quickly approaching the price of a good tpa3250.
The tpa3250 is much better. There is no comparison. I consider the tpa3116 stuff to be over hyped, the tpa3250 on the other hand is a great starting point most people would be happy to live with.
Kjeldsen: For the link you provide, I agree, I would not call that expensive. I have seen some other high-end implementations at much higher prices.
KaffiMann: I agree that almost all will be happy with a TPA3250 board but most also with a TPA3116 board. The difference in price for DIY-fun - almost 10 times (admitted, with a better TPA3250 implementation). For my TPA3116/3118 boards I paid very little and they perform subjectively very well with a good power supply.
KaffiMann: I agree that almost all will be happy with a TPA3250 board but most also with a TPA3116 board. The difference in price for DIY-fun - almost 10 times (admitted, with a better TPA3250 implementation). For my TPA3116/3118 boards I paid very little and they perform subjectively very well with a good power supply.
I am glad that the tpa3116 worked well in your application.
For my many attempts to like it, it was just not good enough in any setting. Tried with many different PSU's, including battery. I still consider it a bit hyped-up.
For instance the tpa3116 YJ boards are certainly value for money, but to get a bit of performance out of it, maybe change at least output filter coils, and get a half decent pre amp stage, + some power smoothing, potmeter and a box.
This is not much more expensive then:
FXAUDIO FX502SPRO TPA3250 Class D Digital Amplifier Hi-Fi Stereo Audio Power Amp | eBay
Seen it as low as 60.99$. Including good output filter coils, NE5532 pre-stage, some psu smoothing, and a power supply in case you do not own one from an old laptop. Difference in cost is very low, but you get a very good implementation of the tpa3250 vs a "needs a bit of work and it's not quite as good" tpa3116.
Edit:
People considering the tpa3116 are much better off with a cheap TDA7297 or two + a 12v 7ah or bigger battery and a small charger. And get a cmoy to use as a pre-amp.
For my many attempts to like it, it was just not good enough in any setting. Tried with many different PSU's, including battery. I still consider it a bit hyped-up.
For instance the tpa3116 YJ boards are certainly value for money, but to get a bit of performance out of it, maybe change at least output filter coils, and get a half decent pre amp stage, + some power smoothing, potmeter and a box.
This is not much more expensive then:
FXAUDIO FX502SPRO TPA3250 Class D Digital Amplifier Hi-Fi Stereo Audio Power Amp | eBay
Seen it as low as 60.99$. Including good output filter coils, NE5532 pre-stage, some psu smoothing, and a power supply in case you do not own one from an old laptop. Difference in cost is very low, but you get a very good implementation of the tpa3250 vs a "needs a bit of work and it's not quite as good" tpa3116.
Edit:
People considering the tpa3116 are much better off with a cheap TDA7297 or two + a 12v 7ah or bigger battery and a small charger. And get a cmoy to use as a pre-amp.
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You are absolutely right in that if you buy the right finished product from Asia, do it yourself is not necessarily saving.
Some of these finished Asian products are, however, not perfect implementations either. Cooling may be an issue and power decoupling is not always sufficient. Often the output filter chokes are of decent quality and the signal capacitors foil.
The problem with buying a finished product is that you learn much less about the product than if you construct it yourself, at least in part.
I have got a Marantz, a Denon and a Harman-Kardon amplifier but they are rarely used because I love my 10+ open-frame DIY amplifiers more. I invested time in making them and thinking about improvements. All what I use today are open modules where I constantly try new combinations and improvements in order to get a really good feeling of their nature.
After electronic production in large scale left Europe, my impression is that young people do not have the fun we used to have from constructing our own electronics. It has simply become too cheap to bother. I hope to return this trend a bit by taking part on this forum.
You feel a kind of happiness when even your TPA3116 construction works, and you feel ready to go on with more challenging constructions.
One day young people, starting with the simple, may turn into new KaffiManns or Kjeldsens and can contribute on this forum.
Your levels are higher than mine. I just want to pass on the pleasure of making amplifiers work (well), even if better ones can be found. Also, my speakers are probably not up to your standards so I cannot hear the subtle details as well as you.
One day I may even buy a TPA325x board.
Some of these finished Asian products are, however, not perfect implementations either. Cooling may be an issue and power decoupling is not always sufficient. Often the output filter chokes are of decent quality and the signal capacitors foil.
The problem with buying a finished product is that you learn much less about the product than if you construct it yourself, at least in part.
I have got a Marantz, a Denon and a Harman-Kardon amplifier but they are rarely used because I love my 10+ open-frame DIY amplifiers more. I invested time in making them and thinking about improvements. All what I use today are open modules where I constantly try new combinations and improvements in order to get a really good feeling of their nature.
After electronic production in large scale left Europe, my impression is that young people do not have the fun we used to have from constructing our own electronics. It has simply become too cheap to bother. I hope to return this trend a bit by taking part on this forum.
You feel a kind of happiness when even your TPA3116 construction works, and you feel ready to go on with more challenging constructions.
One day young people, starting with the simple, may turn into new KaffiManns or Kjeldsens and can contribute on this forum.
Your levels are higher than mine. I just want to pass on the pleasure of making amplifiers work (well), even if better ones can be found. Also, my speakers are probably not up to your standards so I cannot hear the subtle details as well as you.
One day I may even buy a TPA325x board.
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