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Class D Switching Power Amplifiers and Power D/A conversion

TPA3116D2 Amp
TPA3116D2 Amp
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Old 12th October 2019, 09:17 AM   #11201
Papaya59 is offline Papaya59  France
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Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Northern France
Thanks for the advices Turbowatch2,

As you may guess i have basically zero knowledge and practice in high current/voltage handling... I have some basics of theoretical notions from my master's degree in biology but really it is not that much. I wanted to learn with practical stuff as i usually do when i know nothing on a subject ^^

I'm in france so basically, the yellow wire is ground. I don't know how ground works with all that stuff (metal case, wooden/plastic case, SMPS or not,...).
So i'll try to remove this ground wire on the SMPS as you said, to see if that improve something, and also put the gray wire from the pot to the amp boards ground.

At the end, if it doesn't work, maybe it would be better to stop experiment with high current /voltage stuff without a minimal education (books or something, maybe can you advice me for a good book to begin with ?).
I found a DELL 19.5V / 6.7A (or even a 20V / 8.5 A) laptop power supply (I heard it is perfect), I may be better to use it instead of what I have done.

Overall I thanks you very much for your help

For my final build, it will just be the amp in its acrylic case positionned not so far the bookshelf speakers (Wharfedale diamond 9.1) and powered by the best source i can find.
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Old 13th October 2019, 07:19 PM   #11202
Doom303 is offline Doom303  Russian Federation
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Hi all, has anyone listened to the sound of this amp?Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 13th October 2019, 08:29 PM   #11203
Papaya59 is offline Papaya59  France
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Hello,

I never used this amp (Allo Volt+ with stepped attenuator) but i have read a lot of good things on these, these are well built amplifier but a bit in the expansive side IMHO.
By the way it is a TPA3118 chip on this board.

I allow myself to update my journey

- tried to disconnect the yellow cable (ground) and it didn't improve anything (gave up)
- tried my Dell 19.5V / 6.7A and it sounds good, i'll continue with that for the power supply

- i want to reduce the gain on my board from 26dB to 20dB: i have to play with the R18 (100K)/R19 (20K) values (which corresponds respectively to R2 and R1 in the TPA3116D2 datasheet)

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Can i just remove R18 (R2), let it open to modify the gain settings or do i need to also change the R19 (R1) value to 5.6kOhms ?

Also i would like to mod the board to improve it :

- Anti-plop system, a very well known mod but I can't find any ressources that allow me to do it on the same layout as my board, can you help me to design it ?

- I heard about something like "bootstrap snubber mod", i don't know what it does (reduces noise ?) maybe can you tell me more about this please ?

- last but not least, i have couples of audiophiles capacitors (Nichicon BP, FW, KA, Wima caps,...) is it worth to changes the capacitors on the boards ? And what do you recommend ?

i can change 8 * 470F 50V electrolytic capacitors (in same values ? Nichicon FW)
8 * 220F 35V capacitors (in same values ? Nichicon BP)
6 * 0.68F (yellow caps) (in same values ? Wima MKP2 or MKS2)

Click the image to open in full size.

Thanks for the help,

Papaya
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Old 13th October 2019, 08:38 PM   #11204
FauxFrench is offline FauxFrench  France
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Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: The mountains, calm and quiet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papaya59 View Post

- i want to reduce the gain on my board from 26dB to 20dB: i have to play with the R18 (100K)/R19 (20K) values (which corresponds respectively to R2 and R1 in the TPA3116D2 datasheet)

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Can i just remove R18 (R2), let it open to modify the gain settings or do i need to also change the R19 (R1) value to 5.6kOhms ?

Papaya
Removing R18 should be sufficient.

If you anyway have the capacitors, I would try replacing them.

"Bootstrap snubber"?? The bootstrap principle is used to increase input impedance or generate a higher operating voltage for the drive circuit. A snubber serves to absorb smaller amounts of energy, typically from second order parasitic effects. "Bootstrap-snubber", a miracle circuit?

"Anti-plop" circuit, I need to study the datasheet.

Biology - fine. When we use organic superconductors, you will be teaching us.

For once it is us down south having the warmest weather.

Last edited by FauxFrench; 13th October 2019 at 09:02 PM.
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Old 13th October 2019, 09:24 PM   #11205
Kyrk is offline Kyrk  Greece
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Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Athens
Hello, i am using this amp Bluetooth 4.2 TPA3116D2 Subwoofer Audio Amplifier Board 2.1 2*50W+100W DC12-24V | eBay
I get a really noticeable bazzing sound from the speakers whenever i connect it to my computer via 3.5mm cable. If i connect it with the same cable to my smartphone or laptop its almost silent, i still get a light hissing though. It makes the buzzign sound both in the front pannel headphone output and in the I/O output of the motherboard (200 ohm output impedance) or even in my monitor's 3.5mm jack. I tried different cables (thought none of them is shielded) and nothing changed. If i use it with Bluetooth it doesn't make any buzzing sound.Also the volume of the buzzing is attenuated by the amp's tone knob, if i turn it down the buzzing get louder if i turn it waay up it almost completely stops, i guess this says soemthign abotu the buzzing's frequency? At the moment the amp is not in some enclosure but i dont think thats the problem with my case. The power supply i use is a 24v laptop power supply. More over none of my previous 2.1 systems had any similar problem and they where very low quality so its probably not the computer's problem either. I am guessing it peaks electromagnetic interference from the surrounding electronics and because the output is stronger than the smartphone's the buzzing is more noticeable. will a better shielded cable fix this?Do i need a DAC to get rid any interference?
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Old 13th October 2019, 11:11 PM   #11206
FauxFrench is offline FauxFrench  France
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Join Date: Dec 2017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyrk View Post
Hello, i am using this amp Bluetooth 4.2 TPA3116D2 Subwoofer Audio Amplifier Board 2.1 2*50W+100W DC12-24V | eBay
I get a really noticeable bazzing sound from the speakers whenever i connect it to my computer via 3.5mm cable. If i connect it with the same cable to my smartphone or laptop its almost silent, i still get a light hissing though. It makes the buzzign sound both in the front pannel headphone output and in the I/O output of the motherboard (200 ohm output impedance) or even in my monitor's 3.5mm jack. I tried different cables (thought none of them is shielded) and nothing changed. If i use it with Bluetooth it doesn't make any buzzing sound.Also the volume of the buzzing is attenuated by the amp's tone knob, if i turn it down the buzzing get louder if i turn it waay up it almost completely stops, i guess this says soemthign abotu the buzzing's frequency? At the moment the amp is not in some enclosure but i dont think thats the problem with my case. The power supply i use is a 24v laptop power supply. More over none of my previous 2.1 systems had any similar problem and they where very low quality so its probably not the computer's problem either. I am guessing it peaks electromagnetic interference from the surrounding electronics and because the output is stronger than the smartphone's the buzzing is more noticeable. will a better shielded cable fix this?Do i need a DAC to get rid any interference?
Hi Kyrk,

There are important differences between buzzing (hum / net frequency related noise) and hiss (broad-band almost white noise spectrum noise) and their reasons are different. I will deal with buzzing/hum.

Even experienced DIYers can start sweating when they have to solve ground-loop issues. Ground-loop issues vary with every setup such that we cannot just point at a generic solution.
Ground loops often relate to more power supplies in the same signal chain. PC type computers in the signal chain often cause problems.
To find out what (minimum) level you can arrive at, you remove all other signal cables than a cable going to the headphone output of your smart-phone. Let the smartphone play (without charger) but with the volume on the phone turned fully down. The buzzing you have in the speakers with the amplifier volume turned up shows what the amplifier alone can do. With the volume of the amplifier turned up, you often hear a little buzzing (coming from the power supply or radiated from other appliances in the room).

To find out what causes the buzz you have with the full signal path in place, you use a method where you "work your way backwards" through the signal chain.

Working your way backwards in steps:
* All signal cables to the amplifier disconnected. The active input connectors short-circuited. Any important buzz? Remove the short-circuits from the active inputs.
* Connect a signal cable to the amplifier input you most often use. Make sure that the cable ground is well connected to the amplifier. Short-circuit the signal cable in the end away from the amplifier. Any important buzz? Remove the short-circuits from the cable inputs.
* Connect your pre-amp/DAC/PC to the signal cable but do not connect the pre-amp/DAC/PC to power. Any important buzz?
* Connect pre-amp/DAC/PC to power but do not turn the power ON yet. Any important buzz?
* Turn the power to the pre-amp/DAC/PC ON. If you use a pre-amp, short-circuit the inputs. Any important buzz? Remove short-circuits from the pre-amp inputs.
* Connect a source to the pre-amp or a computer to the DAC. No connection to power yet. Any important buzz?
* Connect the source or computer to power but do not turn the power ON. Any important buzz?
*Turn the power to the source or computer ON. Any important buzz?

If there is a buzzing problem, the buzz should appear during one of the steps above.

Last edited by FauxFrench; 13th October 2019 at 11:31 PM.
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Old 14th October 2019, 11:57 AM   #11207
Kyrk is offline Kyrk  Greece
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Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Athens
Quote:
Originally Posted by FauxFrench View Post
Hi Kyrk,

There are important differences between buzzing (hum / net frequency related noise) and hiss (broad-band almost white noise spectrum noise) and their reasons are different. I will deal with buzzing/hum.

Even experienced DIYers can start sweating when they have to solve ground-loop issues. Ground-loop issues vary with every setup such that we cannot just point at a generic solution.
Ground loops often relate to more power supplies in the same signal chain. PC type computers in the signal chain often cause problems.
To find out what (minimum) level you can arrive at, you remove all other signal cables than a cable going to the headphone output of your smart-phone. Let the smartphone play (without charger) but with the volume on the phone turned fully down. The buzzing you have in the speakers with the amplifier volume turned up shows what the amplifier alone can do. With the volume of the amplifier turned up, you often hear a little buzzing (coming from the power supply or radiated from other appliances in the room).

To find out what causes the buzz you have with the full signal path in place, you use a method where you "work your way backwards" through the signal chain.

Working your way backwards in steps:
* All signal cables to the amplifier disconnected. The active input connectors short-circuited. Any important buzz? Remove the short-circuits from the active inputs.
* Connect a signal cable to the amplifier input you most often use. Make sure that the cable ground is well connected to the amplifier. Short-circuit the signal cable in the end away from the amplifier. Any important buzz? Remove the short-circuits from the cable inputs.
* Connect your pre-amp/DAC/PC to the signal cable but do not connect the pre-amp/DAC/PC to power. Any important buzz?
* Connect pre-amp/DAC/PC to power but do not turn the power ON yet. Any important buzz?
* Turn the power to the pre-amp/DAC/PC ON. If you use a pre-amp, short-circuit the inputs. Any important buzz? Remove short-circuits from the pre-amp inputs.
* Connect a source to the pre-amp or a computer to the DAC. No connection to power yet. Any important buzz?
* Connect the source or computer to power but do not turn the power ON. Any important buzz?
*Turn the power to the source or computer ON. Any important buzz?

If there is a buzzing problem, the buzz should appear during one of the steps above.
Hey Faux

I followed the steps and here is what i found:
With the pc connected to the amp with a 3.5mm cable i can hear buzzing when the pc is on and when i shut it down but it's power supply switch is on and its connected to the wall plug. If i leave it connected to the wall and turn it off by it's psu switch the buzzing continuous but at a lower volume and if i unplug the computer from the wall the buzzing disappears. Notice that the amp is using it's own powersupply and its not gatting any power by the computer. Does that mean that the buzzing is coming from the pc psu? If so, why am i not getting any buzzzing when i connect to it cheap commercial 2.1 systems?
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Old 14th October 2019, 12:27 PM   #11208
FauxFrench is offline FauxFrench  France
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Join Date: Dec 2017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyrk View Post
Hey Faux

I followed the steps and here is what i found:
With the pc connected to the amp with a 3.5mm cable i can hear buzzing when the pc is on and when i shut it down but it's power supply switch is on and its connected to the wall plug. If i leave it connected to the wall and turn it off by it's psu switch the buzzing continuous but at a lower volume and if i unplug the computer from the wall the buzzing disappears. Notice that the amp is using it's own powersupply and its not gatting any power by the computer. Does that mean that the buzzing is coming from the pc psu? If so, why am i not getting any buzzzing when i connect to it cheap commercial 2.1 systems?
Good work! The combination of a PC power supply and a (separate) amplifier power supply often gives hum.
If you can and your power plug for the amplifier is a plug without earth connection (flat type), try to turn the amplifier power plug 180 degrees around when you connect it to the net. Any difference? The reason for this weird suggestion is that a PC uses an SMPS. Your amplifier may also use an SMPS. SMPS normally have a safety-capacitor between primary return and secondary (for EMI reasons I suppose). If your two power plugs (PC and amplifier) are connected such that the primary return of the two SMPS are in phase, little current will run through the safety capacitors. If they are connected in counter-phase, more current will run through the safety capacitors and in the ground wire.

If that does not help, we have to think of a way to break the galvanic connection between the PC and amplifier.
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Old 14th October 2019, 12:55 PM   #11209
phofman is online now phofman  Czech Republic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doom303 View Post
Hi all, has anyone listened to the sound of this amp?Click the image to open in full size.
Why are outputs next to the input attenuator and the input wires (nonshielded) routed along the output cables to the other side? IMO the case was designed for the board in the opposite direction.
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Old 14th October 2019, 01:00 PM   #11210
Kyrk is offline Kyrk  Greece
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Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Athens
Quote:
Originally Posted by FauxFrench View Post
Good work! The combination of a PC power supply and a (separate) amplifier power supply often gives hum.
If you can and your power plug for the amplifier is a plug without earth connection (flat type), try to turn the amplifier power plug 180 degrees around when you connect it to the net. Any difference? The reason for this weird suggestion is that a PC uses an SMPS. Your amplifier may also use an SMPS. SMPS normally have a safety-capacitor between primary return and secondary (for EMI reasons I suppose). If your two power plugs (PC and amplifier) are connected such that the primary return of the two SMPS are in phase, little current will run through the safety capacitors. If they are connected in counter-phase, more current will run through the safety capacitors and in the ground wire.

If that does not help, we have to think of a way to break the galvanic connection between the PC and amplifier.
The plugs have ground,they are the standard European plugs. I did try it and i saw no difference whatsoever. I also tried to connect the amp's power supply to a completely different different plug in another room using an extension cord. still no difference, the buzzing persists

UPDATE.

i tried a differed laptop power supply, a 19volt one (previous was 24v) and the buzzing is still there but it has different frequency. I dont know if this helps.

Last edited by Kyrk; 14th October 2019 at 01:04 PM.
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