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Class D Switching Power Amplifiers and Power D/A conversion

Behringer iNuke NU3000 Measurements
Behringer iNuke NU3000 Measurements
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Old 30th April 2017, 09:42 PM   #81
Simonusa2010 is offline Simonusa2010  United States
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I talking about something like you sent me for inuke3000dsp do you have something like this for inuke1000dsp?

https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&sourc...SiwDBJimc6vMBA
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Old 1st May 2017, 02:07 PM   #82
Simonusa2010 is offline Simonusa2010  United States
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????
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Old 1st May 2017, 03:44 PM   #83
ICG is offline ICG  Germany
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Location: I had a Déjà Moo - I've seen that BS before!
No, sry. I don't find the NU1000 particularily interesting thugh I did search but didn't find anything like that.
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Old 12th June 2017, 01:14 PM   #84
dizzie is offline dizzie  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mohammad yusuf View Post
some body have schematic inuke 3000 by behringer ?
please share here
Here you go:

https://elektrotanya.com/behringer_i.../download.html
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Old 12th June 2017, 10:26 PM   #85
Eva is offline Eva  Spain
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Wow, these INUKE amplifiers are designed in a hurry and with very low budget. Anti-features:
- Pre-filter feedback class-D, IRS20957 used in IRS2092 mode.
- Maximum dead time setting in IRS20957.
- No current limiting in speaker outputs, just over-current shutdown.
- Thermal fan speed control, but no thermal limiting, just thermal shutdown.
- Clip limiter is driven from level at input of amplifier, not from true output clipping, -9dB maximum attenuation.
- Power supply is not regulated, control circuit is inspired by old QSC or the like.
- Power supply has no current limiting, just over-current shutdown/hiccup mode.

Thanks for posting the schematics.
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Last edited by Eva; 12th June 2017 at 10:42 PM.
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Old 13th June 2017, 12:14 AM   #86
dizzie is offline dizzie  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eva View Post
Wow, these INUKE amplifiers are designed in a hurry and with very low budget. Anti-features:
- Pre-filter feedback class-D, IRS20957 used in IRS2092 mode.
- Maximum dead time setting in IRS20957.
- No current limiting in speaker outputs, just over-current shutdown.
- Thermal fan speed control, but no thermal limiting, just thermal shutdown.
- Clip limiter is driven from level at input of amplifier, not from true output clipping, -9dB maximum attenuation.
- Power supply is not regulated, control circuit is inspired by old QSC or the like.
- Power supply has no current limiting, just over-current shutdown/hiccup mode.

Thanks for posting the schematics.
You're very welcome, and thanks for the detailed feedback! You seem to have quite an in-depth and granular knowledge of amplifier design.

As an end-user of the amps while DJing and performing live music, I'm don't feel particularly affected by the items you mention above that seem to be viewed as design shortcuts. In use, I've never experienced clipping with these amps or shutdown/ protection, even when driving them into the red for many hours at a time in 4 ohm bridge mono mode.

Perhaps Behringer realized they could cut costs by simplifying the design in a way that their customers would not ever see the impacts of? Out of curiosity, are there other competing Class D amps that you see as having more robust engineering?

Again, thanks for your insight!
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Old 13th June 2017, 11:18 AM   #87
Eva is offline Eva  Spain
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I'm the designer of class D amplifier modules for a North American company, made in USA: SpeakerPower - Home

INUKE series has very little R&D in it, the amplifier circuit is copied from "IRAUDAMP" papers, the power supply is copied from old QSC service manuals, they decided to run the short race.

There are some feelings about modern audio amplification that you can get from INUKE, particularly the feeling of high power from low natural resource usage, affordable from low budgets. Suitable for occasional low-budget/entry-level parties, without hurting nature.

There are some feelings about modern audio amplification that you cannot get from INUKE:
- The feeling of flat undistorted trebble output and constant amplifier gain regardless of load impedance. Gain and frequency response change with load, and even with amplifier temperature, in INUKE. This can be compensated with equalization, but what are you equalizing? When equipment changes frequency response in unpredictable ways for the user it is very difficult to learn to do precision equalization, which is equivalent to learning to do precision tuning of feelings.
- The feeling of an amplifier that does neither give up nor hurt itself in the long term when input or output is overloaded, only achieved with accurate limiting. This requires years of R&D and investment because at present there is very little stuff invented to copy.
- The feeling of an amplifier that does not become internally corroded and unusable after a few years of continuous use, due to dust accumulation in critical parts that need cooling but are not mounted onto a heatsink. In INUKE ambient air is blown directly into PCB with delicate SMD parts instead. Even the IRS20957 FET driver (the two big 16-pin rectangular boxes in page 1) needs the fan cooling because there is no way this little IC can drive 2+ heavy FETs like IRFS4227 reliably without buffering or cooling. In club environments this is like a self-destruction countdown clock continuously running. In home environments the fans prevent comfortable low level listening as for musical trance while resting. INUKE can do good at mid sound levels, but not at low or high levels, requiring the use of different products.

As a DJ you will probably figure out that these 3 points describe feelings/abilities that are highly needed in society, and are the most difficult ones to transmit, because these feelings are not only about the music played, they are about the designers of the gear used.

As a designer I can say that there is some kind of complementarity between designers running the short race and designers running the long race. The short race designers quickly provide an entry level design so that people can get a feeling about a new technology, but it becomes outdated sooner. The long race designers take some more years to provide a reference design that stays state-of-the-art for decades. As a long race designer I can say that I'm not earning big amounts of money, in fact I'm not even being able to save anything, it's taking me ~5 years per design to create high quality solutions comparable in function to low budget INUKE (maybe 1 year team development). In fact I have been working in an insalubrious location (40yr old building wrongly constructed and never revised) for years, not being able to fix it until recently. And yes, a good designer can work in any field, also refurbishing furniture, scraping old paint and toxic coatings, and adding insulation to walls. True engineering is universal. Universality takes a bit longer. In fact the designers of INUKE probably earned in 1 year as much money as I'm earning in 5 years.
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Last edited by Eva; 13th June 2017 at 11:47 AM.
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Old 13th June 2017, 02:21 PM   #88
dizzie is offline dizzie  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eva View Post
I'm the designer of class D amplifier modules for a North American company, made in USA: SpeakerPower - Home

INUKE series has very little R&D in it, the amplifier circuit is copied from "IRAUDAMP" papers, the power supply is copied from old QSC service manuals, they decided to run the short race.

There are some feelings about modern audio amplification that you can get from INUKE, particularly the feeling of high power from low natural resource usage, affordable from low budgets. Suitable for occasional low-budget/entry-level parties, without hurting nature.

There are some feelings about modern audio amplification that you cannot get from INUKE:
- The feeling of flat undistorted trebble output and constant amplifier gain regardless of load impedance. Gain and frequency response change with load, and even with amplifier temperature, in INUKE. This can be compensated with equalization, but what are you equalizing? When equipment changes frequency response in unpredictable ways for the user it is very difficult to learn to do precision equalization, which is equivalent to learning to do precision tuning of feelings.
- The feeling of an amplifier that does neither give up nor hurt itself in the long term when input or output is overloaded, only achieved with accurate limiting. This requires years of R&D and investment because at present there is very little stuff invented to copy.
- The feeling of an amplifier that does not become internally corroded and unusable after a few years of continuous use, due to dust accumulation in critical parts that need cooling but are not mounted onto a heatsink. In INUKE ambient air is blown directly into PCB with delicate SMD parts instead. Even the IRS20957 FET driver (the two big 16-pin rectangular boxes in page 1) needs the fan cooling because there is no way this little IC can drive 2+ heavy FETs like IRFS4227 reliably without buffering or cooling. In club environments this is like a self-destruction countdown clock continuously running. In home environments the fans prevent comfortable low level listening as for musical trance while resting. INUKE can do good at mid sound levels, but not at low or high levels, requiring the use of different products.

As a DJ you will probably figure out that these 3 points describe feelings/abilities that are highly needed in society, and are the most difficult ones to transmit, because these feelings are not only about the music played, they are about the designers of the gear used.

As a designer I can say that there is some kind of complementarity between designers running the short race and designers running the long race. The short race designers quickly provide an entry level design so that people can get a feeling about a new technology, but it becomes outdated sooner. The long race designers take some more years to provide a reference design that stays state-of-the-art for decades. As a long race designer I can say that I'm not earning big amounts of money, in fact I'm not even being able to save anything, it's taking me ~5 years per design to create high quality solutions comparable in function to low budget INUKE (maybe 1 year team development). In fact I have been working in an insalubrious location (40yr old building wrongly constructed and never revised) for years, not being able to fix it until recently. And yes, a good designer can work in any field, also refurbishing furniture, scraping old paint and toxic coatings, and adding insulation to walls. True engineering is universal. Universality takes a bit longer. In fact the designers of INUKE probably earned in 1 year as much money as I'm earning in 5 years.
Wow, what a story. Thanks for that. It sounds like you guys are in a position to be innovators in your space, in true Silcon Valley fashion. I truly hope that your hard work, sacrifice, and creativity pay off big time, either through expanded product sales, licensing of design and technologies to other companies, or both.

While your technologies are mouth-watering, I could never justify spending the money on them in my situation - it just isn't a fit. My audiences are either desiring relatively faithful sound reproduction at medium levels for my live musician performances, or non-critical listening at high levels when I DJ weddings and parties. And who knows - I may not be DJing in another 3-5 years when problems may start to occur with my cheap Behringer amps. If so, I can buy a couple more and replace them many times over at the same cost as your products.

However, I truly believe that there are suitable and profitable markets for your products where you all can make a lot more profit margin than Behringer who has to sell hundreds of thousands of units to small-time guys like me. In addition to the home theater enthusiast/ DIY group you have tapped into, there is a much larger opportunity. Schools, concert/ recital halls, and large event facilities like conference centers, gyms, and sports arenas would do well to take a look at your offerings. These institutions need exactly those 3 key benefits you described: great fidelity, protection without interrupting service, and extreme reliability! Anything less, and they aren't providing the sound reinforcement their customers expect.

I hope that you all can grow solid relationships with the audio installation companies that sell and service these large commercial clients. I can imagine these commercial audio companies easily putting in orders for dozens of units at a time when a new installation job is successfully bid on.

Unless your branding is already very well known, I would also consider changing the company name and/ or the name of your product line. A small amount of money to be spent on logo variations and/ or a "Corporate Identity Package" could go a long way. The name SpeakerPower does not convey an impression of the tremendous value provided by the rare, cutting edge technologies you have engineered into your products, and how much your target customers should be more than happy to spend on it.
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Old 13th June 2017, 02:23 PM   #89
dizzie is offline dizzie  United States
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By the way, I think that your price structure on your rack models is very forward-looking, no-nonsense, and would be VERY appealing to commercial customers!
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Old 14th June 2017, 11:14 AM   #90
Reactance is offline Reactance  South Africa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eva View Post
I'm the designer of class D amplifier modules for a North American company, made in USA: SpeakerPower - Home

INUKE series has very little R&D in it, the amplifier circuit is copied from "IRAUDAMP" papers, the power supply is copied from old QSC service manuals, they decided to run the short race.

There are some feelings about modern audio amplification that you can get from INUKE, particularly the feeling of high power from low natural resource usage, affordable from low budgets. Suitable for occasional low-budget/entry-level parties, without hurting nature.

There are some feelings about modern audio amplification that you cannot get from INUKE:
- The feeling of flat undistorted trebble output and constant amplifier gain regardless of load impedance. Gain and frequency response change with load, and even with amplifier temperature, in INUKE. This can be compensated with equalization, but what are you equalizing? When equipment changes frequency response in unpredictable ways for the user it is very difficult to learn to do precision equalization, which is equivalent to learning to do precision tuning of feelings.
- The feeling of an amplifier that does neither give up nor hurt itself in the long term when input or output is overloaded, only achieved with accurate limiting. This requires years of R&D and investment because at present there is very little stuff invented to copy.
- The feeling of an amplifier that does not become internally corroded and unusable after a few years of continuous use, due to dust accumulation in critical parts that need cooling but are not mounted onto a heatsink. In INUKE ambient air is blown directly into PCB with delicate SMD parts instead. Even the IRS20957 FET driver (the two big 16-pin rectangular boxes in page 1) needs the fan cooling because there is no way this little IC can drive 2+ heavy FETs like IRFS4227 reliably without buffering or cooling. In club environments this is like a self-destruction countdown clock continuously running. In home environments the fans prevent comfortable low level listening as for musical trance while resting. INUKE can do good at mid sound levels, but not at low or high levels, requiring the use of different products.

As a DJ you will probably figure out that these 3 points describe feelings/abilities that are highly needed in society, and are the most difficult ones to transmit, because these feelings are not only about the music played, they are about the designers of the gear used.

As a designer I can say that there is some kind of complementarity between designers running the short race and designers running the long race. The short race designers quickly provide an entry level design so that people can get a feeling about a new technology, but it becomes outdated sooner. The long race designers take some more years to provide a reference design that stays state-of-the-art for decades. As a long race designer I can say that I'm not earning big amounts of money, in fact I'm not even being able to save anything, it's taking me ~5 years per design to create high quality solutions comparable in function to low budget INUKE (maybe 1 year team development). In fact I have been working in an insalubrious location (40yr old building wrongly constructed and never revised) for years, not being able to fix it until recently. And yes, a good designer can work in any field, also refurbishing furniture, scraping old paint and toxic coatings, and adding insulation to walls. True engineering is universal. Universality takes a bit longer. In fact the designers of INUKE probably earned in 1 year as much money as I'm earning in 5 years.
This is probably the first time eva has made information like this public. after 10 years.
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