I've been around, but I am a slow learner and fond of beating my head against a brick wall.
bringing DBT in any discussion of the kind is naive. it's like telling "let's just be civil" to the guy with a bat. "DBT can't possibly work" is the bat, you can't fight it, it's made of tough aluminum
Been there, got the bruises. But I also grew up in a country where the national sport is ice hockey...
hey...
I too am interested in how and why some things make a difference, which at first glance, seem like they should not.
But, I do not (primarily) evaluate how my system performs "objectively", as my system does not exist in order to produce empirical measurements; it exists to produce an enjoyable listening experience. If a change to my system produces more listening enjoyment, then that change is a success.
Separately, yes, I would always like to you know how/why the changes produces a positive experience. As far as the fuses go, there has been much speculation, but very little (there are some published measurements) objective analysis. Still, it is not surprising to me that a fuse would make a difference, considering my experiences with wiring, IEC connectors, etc, and that all the power for a given component has to pass through a single, tiny, fuse element.
I have no problem with those who desire a full understanding of why something like a fuse might make a difference, but I do have a problem with the closed minded who insist that a fuse cannot make a difference, without any experience, either empirical or observational, of high quality fuses.
Note that the OEM manufacturer of the Veritas nC1200 monoblocks includes audiophile fuses. Knowing what I do about the cost constraints that a manufacturer is subject to, I doubt they would go to the extra expense if their was nothing to gain in sonic performance...
I too am interested in how and why some things make a difference, which at first glance, seem like they should not.
But, I do not (primarily) evaluate how my system performs "objectively", as my system does not exist in order to produce empirical measurements; it exists to produce an enjoyable listening experience. If a change to my system produces more listening enjoyment, then that change is a success.
Separately, yes, I would always like to you know how/why the changes produces a positive experience. As far as the fuses go, there has been much speculation, but very little (there are some published measurements) objective analysis. Still, it is not surprising to me that a fuse would make a difference, considering my experiences with wiring, IEC connectors, etc, and that all the power for a given component has to pass through a single, tiny, fuse element.
I have no problem with those who desire a full understanding of why something like a fuse might make a difference, but I do have a problem with the closed minded who insist that a fuse cannot make a difference, without any experience, either empirical or observational, of high quality fuses.
Note that the OEM manufacturer of the Veritas nC1200 monoblocks includes audiophile fuses. Knowing what I do about the cost constraints that a manufacturer is subject to, I doubt they would go to the extra expense if their was nothing to gain in sonic performance...
I don't think we have claimed that a fuse can't make any difference. We are presenting some rational reasons for why it seems the difference a fuse makes would be pretty minor.
I also have no problem with people reporting subjective observations, but I am always interested to hear what measures they have taken to rule out this effect:
Penn & Teller - ********! - truth about bottled water
no-one did, but it's automatically assumed.
one more thing that should be noted is that an amplifier which has only one review that we know of, of which we know pretty much nothing about construction wise, is speculated to be superior (without even listening to it) at least partially due to the fuses. if I was manufacturing these I'd rub my hands in satisfaction, because people I don't pay are marketing my products for free.
I...
Referenced this amplifier specifically because it is well known to some on this (nCore) thread. And because it has been reported to sound significantly better than DIY nC400 based implementations. To those who have been following the nCore news online, this would be clear.
I have no need to "prove" anything here, other than that the idea of dismissing something which one has no experience with is close minded. If you guys are open minded, try some fuses, and, if you access to an AP-2 please measure them on an AC waveform and report the results...
I have no idea if the fuses used in the Veritas amps help the sound or not: but, I do have some experience in audio product manufacturing, and I do understand that expensive parts are generally not chosen unless the benefits are entirely clear and impossible to deny.
Referenced this amplifier specifically because it is well known to some on this (nCore) thread. And because it has been reported to sound significantly better than DIY nC400 based implementations. To those who have been following the nCore news online, this would be clear.
I have no need to "prove" anything here, other than that the idea of dismissing something which one has no experience with is close minded. If you guys are open minded, try some fuses, and, if you access to an AP-2 please measure them on an AC waveform and report the results...
I have no idea if the fuses used in the Veritas amps help the sound or not: but, I do have some experience in audio product manufacturing, and I do understand that expensive parts are generally not chosen unless the benefits are entirely clear and impossible to deny.
On the contrary. As the two frequencies are not the same, think (not sure the English word) 'Beat frequency' and their products ?
I know people who upgraded the internal cabling on cheap and badly sounding speakers (the kind that uses the cheapest electrolytics on xo's) and claimed extraordinary improvements. I own speakers that are simply better in every way and haven't heard obvious improvements with cables. if there were any, they were slim. maybe I haven't tried the right ones, quite possible. I also know about cable demos when some people pretended to hear the difference in order not to upset the dealers (on systems that are much better than mine). they have admitted it behind closed doors (who knows, maybe one day that dealer will offer a significant discount for some component, why make enemies?)
I have tested differences between different components and while I think hI eard differences, I wouldn't put any money on it. I'm simply not convinced it wasn't a case of me wanting to hear the differences.
I know that some things do bring significant improvements. I also do know that not everything brings an improvement. so I take every opinion, especially those from strangers and when they're about a 2cm piece of wire that seems to render unmeasurable improvements with a grain of salt.
meanwhile, we're still beating the long dead horse. I find it weird when someone mentions measurements without giving details, especially on diyaudio. I wouldn't be surprised if it happened on other forums. sounds like the marketing dpt.
and I can't see why you still imply that we said those differences didn't exist, when in fact both me and Julf said the contrary. this is what I mean by beating the dead horse, these discussions are all too predictable.
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I am convinced that Mr. Curl is an exceptional engineer and knows how to design an exceptional product.
but I also think that his online activity is suspect. there are moments when I almost think I can see the grin on his face hiding behind his writings. why he does it I have no idea. if I were to speculate I'd say that he's a very intelligent person that understood a long time ago the inside rules of the audio high end game and he plays it very well. there are many other "small celebrities" here that choose not to play the "when in doubt, confuse them" game and I give them points for that.
just my opinion.
(I'll go grab a few beers and hope that the discussion moves on meanwhile)
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WOW...
Really? I said that if you are not close minded (in response to you claiming not to be so, which I accept) that perhaps you might try some fuses. Nothing wrong with being skeptical, especially in high end audio where things like $20K interconnects exist! Honestly, I am not trying to sell fuses, I am not associated in any way with any company which produces or markets fuses. I did previously work at PS Audio, but that was years ago….
I did not link to measurements, specifically because I feel the measurements which have been published are entirely inadequate (of R and voltage drop of various fuses under test), hence my suggestion that someone who is able might try doing some on an AP-2. I would specifically like to see distortion measurements under different current loads.
Really? I said that if you are not close minded (in response to you claiming not to be so, which I accept) that perhaps you might try some fuses. Nothing wrong with being skeptical, especially in high end audio where things like $20K interconnects exist! Honestly, I am not trying to sell fuses, I am not associated in any way with any company which produces or markets fuses. I did previously work at PS Audio, but that was years ago….
I did not link to measurements, specifically because I feel the measurements which have been published are entirely inadequate (of R and voltage drop of various fuses under test), hence my suggestion that someone who is able might try doing some on an AP-2. I would specifically like to see distortion measurements under different current loads.
I'd be more than happy to do measurements but the loan for the AP2 was refused by the bank LOL
also, there's no fuse inside my equipment. I'm cereal. I'll happily admit that a special fuse can bring improvements over a regular one. but I can't for the life of me see how it can improve things over the case where there's no fuse at all.
really, I'm off, beer awaits.
also, there's no fuse inside my equipment. I'm cereal. I'll happily admit that a special fuse can bring improvements over a regular one. but I can't for the life of me see how it can improve things over the case where there's no fuse at all.
really, I'm off, beer awaits.
Of course...
Yes, I would never expect a fuse to outperform a nice piece of suitable gauge wire! That would be audiophile "magic".
Yes, I would never expect a fuse to outperform a nice piece of suitable gauge wire! That would be audiophile "magic".
Now let's organize some blind test between an expensive audiophile nofuse against an ordinary cheap one.
About intelligence of some so calling gurus, well, how to say ? Sense of wires ?
I have a pair of Merrill Audio Veritas amps that have stock 5 amps fuses installed and they are the best amps i have ever heard in my setup.
In a week or so I will receive replacement SR20 (Synergetic Research) fuses and will see if I can tell any difference and if one way is "better" than another.
Has anyone seen pictures or movies of the internal wire in a fuse flexing and bending with changing current? That is what happens, right?
I imagine that circuit breakers have a very small contact area? How do they work?
Fun hobby!
In a week or so I will receive replacement SR20 (Synergetic Research) fuses and will see if I can tell any difference and if one way is "better" than another.
Has anyone seen pictures or movies of the internal wire in a fuse flexing and bending with changing current? That is what happens, right?
I imagine that circuit breakers have a very small contact area? How do they work?
Fun hobby!
Well, not exactly. What's we care of is that the resistance value of the fuse increase with temp, and temp with flowing current. So current is not any more linear. Nothing to worry about, on my point of view for two reasons, the fuse's resistance is little, added at the more important temperature change of transconductance and RTSon of FETs with temp, and the little added error (distortion) will be compensated in the feedback loop of the amp.
In SMPS, no fear to have, because there is caps after, so the changes will be much slower than any signal, and negligible VS changes in AC level in outlet.
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Problem is that unless you have a double set of amps and an audio switcher you won't be able to do any sort of ABX....
Maybe because it says "low EMI" in big, friendly letters right at the start of the data sheet of the SMPS600.
hahaha
you mean to suggest, Julf, that you cannot remember the sound of your mother's (or sister's, daughters', brother's, etc) voice on the telephone (not exactly high res sound there either) unless you just talked to them 10 seconds ago? The idea that sonic memory is so short is flawed. Also, listening is a skill which can be made better through practice. I would entirely discount any studies made on the "population at large", the same way I would not suggest that the average driver could step into an F1 car and be expected to equal Lewis Hamilton's lap times.
In any case, it would not be too hard to do a mono test to AB and even X if one really needed to.
All in good fun.
you mean to suggest, Julf, that you cannot remember the sound of your mother's (or sister's, daughters', brother's, etc) voice on the telephone (not exactly high res sound there either) unless you just talked to them 10 seconds ago? The idea that sonic memory is so short is flawed. Also, listening is a skill which can be made better through practice. I would entirely discount any studies made on the "population at large", the same way I would not suggest that the average driver could step into an F1 car and be expected to equal Lewis Hamilton's lap times.
In any case, it would not be too hard to do a mono test to AB and even X if one really needed to.
All in good fun.
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