It is quite amazing that one can audition a single resistor in a circuit which employs dozens. Common sense dictates that the masking effect should be too severe for any audible differences to remain and yet... Of course some resistor positions are more audible than others, like feedback resistors and cart loading resistors really stand out sonically. It's not easy to come to grips with the obvious contradiction between what makes sense and what is audible and this leaves me with the uneasy feeling that the really nice sounding resistors contribute a set of strong, pleasant colorations which help them stick out sonically. These colorations may act in a non-linear way; they may bring up tiny interesting details and at the same time ameliorate perceived edginess. Although different resistors show different noise spectra i doubt if any conclusions about the sound can be drawn out of it. Same as wire and vibrations these effects exceed with orders of magnitude what is measurable today.
Peter
I did try the PartsExpress tantalum resistors. Magnetic or not, they sound quite nice and very similar to my old non-magnetic ones from La Maisone de'l Audiophile (spelling?).
cheers
peter
Peter
I did try the PartsExpress tantalum resistors. Magnetic or not, they sound quite nice and very similar to my old non-magnetic ones from La Maisone de'l Audiophile (spelling?).
cheers
peter
It seems a bit strange to me to credit resistors that often have a very high engineering spec - low noise, low temp coefficient, low inductance - for adding colouration. To me it seems like it would be the other way round. But there again the word nice is open to almost infinite interpretations ! In my experience bringing out low level detail almost always involves reducing noise of various kinds
I guess resistors come in three categories
a) those that add nice sounding colourations...
b) those that are nuetral sounding... - yes please !
c) those that add bad sounding colourations...
I wonder what resistors we would put in each category ?
Has anyone tried Vishay/Sfernice precision thin film series CNS020 they don't claim low inductance, but temp coef is 10ppm. I was thinking they may be good for Rf position
cheers
mike
I guess resistors come in three categories
a) those that add nice sounding colourations...
b) those that are nuetral sounding...
- yes please !c) those that add bad sounding colourations...
I wonder what resistors we would put in each category ?
Has anyone tried Vishay/Sfernice precision thin film series CNS020 they don't claim low inductance, but temp coef is 10ppm. I was thinking they may be good for Rf position
cheers
mike
A good question from an electrical point of view. Perhaps the difference is more due to the mechanical construction!
This may explain why we can get an acceptable sound from the many resistors contained on the layer of a chip
As regards adding colouration, when an artist mixes colours to produce another, does he worry about the colours that he is using so long as the mixed colour is the one he wants?
Nuuk said:
This is an interesting issue, although we probably shouldn't
start a discussion about it in this thread.
One question to ask, from an engineering point of view, could
be, what parameters should be important for various location/
uses of the resistors. For instance, it is obvious that low noise
is important for input and feedback resistors in a phono stage.
Similarly, resistors taking large voltage swings with high
currents, ie. that swing up close to its power rating should
be more sensitive to temp. coeff. effects than a resistor never
burning away more than a fraction of its rated power.
Most of them don't, but they should if they care about what
the colour will be after some time, when and if and with what
pigments another layer can be painted on top of this one (mostly
for oil) and if they care about the "!life time" of the work. With
modern artist paint it is not as important is it used to be,
however, since most pigments are nowadays synthetic and
selected to be freely mixable with each other (in theory, at least).
Up to less than a hundred years ago, before the research by
Keim, Munkert and others, it was very important for artists to
know which pigments could not be mixed with each other.
BTW, I don't think the analogy is quite appropriate, since in
painting we want to produce a certain colour while for amplifiers
we are rather trying to get no colour, or we should.
I don't think that we can get 'no colour' in hi-fi. And even the term 'neutral' is subjective.
I'll bet there is not one good hi-fi builder who isn't trying to get a neutral sound by mixing and matching components that have a certain colour, to cancel each other out!
If anybody knows differently, then please supply the rest of us with a list of neutral sounding components!
mikelm said:
I don't think there is such thing as neutral resistor or other component. They all add coloration and it is up to us how to mix them correctly to achieve the sound we want.
Because the sound created by your source component is also far away from "neutral" and probably never exactly the same as the original recording.
I tried Vishay S102 in feedback location of GC and had hard time to get proper sound (that I like). It was very soft and mellow and I had to play with PS cables to add more life and sparkle to it. I also have similar looking, but blue Vishay Sfernice resistors, but I like them even less. Same goes for VTA-54 type. I like Caddocks lately.
Nuuk said:
It seems I misunderstood you. I got the impression you meant
trying to achieve a particular, not necessaily neutral, sound
by tweaking the choice of components. So, Ok, we're talking
about mixing the perfect neutral grey, that's more appropriate,
I agree.
It seems from discussions here and elsewhere that should not
be taken for granted that everybody tries to achieve a neutral
sound.
Well, we all hear differently for a start. I bet if you asked 100 of us to listen to 10 amps and say which one was the most neutral, you would get a lot of different answers. Just as if you showed 100 of us a card with 50 shades of grey and asked the same question.
What anybody hears in a hi-fi system also depends a lot on the system that they listen to on a regular basis. If you have a warm sounding system at home and you listen to one that some say sounds a little warm, you may call that system neutral.
Building hi-fi is not an exact science (to the obvious annoyance of some people). Sure, we work to ohms law and the rest of it but what comes out the 'other end' ie the speakers is not a quantifiable product in totally objective terms.
We can measure the frequency response, and the decibels, but that only tells us that we may be on the right trail. After that it is down to what we perceive.
Nuuk said:
I would agree with that. If we can classify devices in general into "good", "bad" and "neutral" sounding, then we (or at least some of us) are trying to achieve certain colouration (if you could "no color" as a "color").
Again, to me, resistor colouration is just as much scientific as cable colouration,
, before I see any documented "colours" from those resistors.
We may be straying too far into the realms of subjectiveness here chaps
I wonder if anybdy can suggest more objective tests when auditioning amps (or other equipment)?
Perhaps I could start the ball rolling with an example.
Clarity. Take the well-known CD Dark Side of the Moon and listen to track two. The female airport announcer announces details of a flight that is going to three destinations. You have to listen carefully for this information but on a good system (clarity wise) you can clearly make this out. So that's one test I do when audition any hi-fi. No grey area here, you can either make out what is said or you can't.
Any more suggestions along these lines?
I wonder if anybdy can suggest more objective tests when auditioning amps (or other equipment)?
Perhaps I could start the ball rolling with an example.
Clarity. Take the well-known CD Dark Side of the Moon and listen to track two. The female airport announcer announces details of a flight that is going to three destinations. You have to listen carefully for this information but on a good system (clarity wise) you can clearly make this out. So that's one test I do when audition any hi-fi. No grey area here, you can either make out what is said or you can't.
Any more suggestions along these lines?
NEOHM
Thanks,
Now I know which ones.Actually these are not that cheap.They cost the same as Caddock or Mills resistors.About 5$ a piece,at least here ,in Poland.Also there are very fiew values available.
I will go for : what is called in RS catalog "general purpose resistors",and there You have metal film from either Welwyn or Neohm.
Best Regards
Bartek
Thanks,
Now I know which ones.Actually these are not that cheap.They cost the same as Caddock or Mills resistors.About 5$ a piece,at least here ,in Poland.Also there are very fiew values available.
I will go for : what is called in RS catalog "general purpose resistors",and there You have metal film from either Welwyn or Neohm.
Best Regards
Bartek
millwood said:
Most of those R's in OPA's are for current sources etc, so
not in direct sig path. Also they are inside feedack loop.
But having said this, many people prefer sound of discrete
designs and this could be one reason.
Te effect of R's varies greatly, proably one of the best
locations to audition is I-V load (open loop) or FB R (OPA)
in a DAC. This will be easily audible. I encourage you
to try this yourself.
Cheers
Terry
Yeah, Pink Floyd 'The Wall', track 4, one minute in after the helicopter lands, there is a splatt sound like a switch arcing or a lead problem, then someone sticks their head out of the speaker and says 'Oh Funk' - c changed to n to defeat censorship - I'm sure you understand what I mean.
It is about 100 dB down, but on a really good system you will hear and understand it.
Eric.
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