Peter Daniel said:
I truly enjoy reading these posts. There are so many good arguments made about listening tests etc... Hi Fi is just one of those areas that will NEVER have definitive answers. Listening is way too subjective.
I have a suggestion. Why not just hook up a scope to different amps and compare them based on their abilities to reproduce various waveforms. This will at least offer some basis for objective comparison up to the point of the speaker posts.
A problem will come in when one throws speaker cables, crossovers and drivers into the mix. I think what some people are forgetting is that an amplifier reacts to its load. This undoubtedly will affect sound.
To say what amp of even what kind of amp is better depends on its application. Are the speakers dynamic? Electrostatic? Two-way?, etc...
Of course comparing different amps in the same setup is easier.
I think that comparing different components in a single amp also presents problems. Not only are there variations in components but there will be variations in soldering techniques. I (and I think many others) use point-to-point soldering techniques. I know that when I solder, I don't always apply the same amount of solder between parts. Differences in solder connections will certainly affect a circuit. I think this especially crucial in opamps where we use feedback resistors to control gain. Maybe these issues are less important in what I think is an elegant amp design like Son of Zen.
Vic
I have a suggestion. Why not just hook up a scope to different amps and compare them based on their abilities to reproduce various waveforms. This will at least offer some basis for objective comparison up to the point of the speaker posts.
A problem will come in when one throws speaker cables, crossovers and drivers into the mix. I think what some people are forgetting is that an amplifier reacts to its load. This undoubtedly will affect sound.
To say what amp of even what kind of amp is better depends on its application. Are the speakers dynamic? Electrostatic? Two-way?, etc...
Of course comparing different amps in the same setup is easier.
I think that comparing different components in a single amp also presents problems. Not only are there variations in components but there will be variations in soldering techniques. I (and I think many others) use point-to-point soldering techniques. I know that when I solder, I don't always apply the same amount of solder between parts. Differences in solder connections will certainly affect a circuit. I think this especially crucial in opamps where we use feedback resistors to control gain. Maybe these issues are less important in what I think is an elegant amp design like Son of Zen.
Vic
Points abound
Just wanting to make sure nobody's feathers are getting ruffled. . . deep breaths. . .
The main point of uncontended truth is that this is a journey, one that I am about 1 to 1 1/2 years into and about 1/2" (12.7mm) into. I have spent huge amounts of time reading about the nuances of speaker wire braiding techniques and how it isn't worth the time to use PVC instead of Teflon Cat5. I have seen posts about types of resistors and caps in the signal path. The types who (typically) study oscilloscopes [edit: Vic you posted while I was writing, so just to be clear, not making a dig at your statement. I actually support doing our best to compare apples to apples and a scope, FFT and other analysis is paramount during development! Thanks for saying some of what I was trying to say.] are usually skeptical of the nuance changes, whereas those with a passion for music can hear things that many can't. The truth or fiction of any change is indeed in the mind of the beholder. If AB testing reveals a distinct difference, then there would be a measurable difference. If it doesn't, there could still be something that people perceive differently. I love science and hate AB testing for purposes other than personal revelation. I don't want a survey group involved, but that's just me.
At my point, its not that I don't believe there is a difference between Riken and Holoco or that the direction of components could play a factor, but it scares me a bit. Regardless, I'll have 2-3 more years of building better quality source components, pre-amps, amps and speakers before I could likely hear the difference.
So, I support millwood's position that for newer hobbyists, posts on the nuance of resistor type/direction might not be directly beneficial, it can serve as notice that any audio product is a synthesis of its parts and appropriate application is tantamount for the most idealized performance. I also support Peter for the efforts involved in seemingly exhaustive testing of various components and the religious reporting of his findings. Am I a convert to using only his recipe? No, I can't afford it!!! But, I can at least appreciate that if I am unsatisfied with the performance of a DIY, that I might consider revising the design or changing components to make it suit my tastes, which will eventually get me farther along in the journey than otherwise possible.
Sandy.
Just wanting to make sure nobody's feathers are getting ruffled. . . deep breaths. . .
The main point of uncontended truth is that this is a journey, one that I am about 1 to 1 1/2 years into and about 1/2" (12.7mm) into. I have spent huge amounts of time reading about the nuances of speaker wire braiding techniques and how it isn't worth the time to use PVC instead of Teflon Cat5. I have seen posts about types of resistors and caps in the signal path. The types who (typically) study oscilloscopes [edit: Vic you posted while I was writing, so just to be clear, not making a dig at your statement. I actually support doing our best to compare apples to apples and a scope, FFT and other analysis is paramount during development! Thanks for saying some of what I was trying to say.] are usually skeptical of the nuance changes, whereas those with a passion for music can hear things that many can't. The truth or fiction of any change is indeed in the mind of the beholder. If AB testing reveals a distinct difference, then there would be a measurable difference. If it doesn't, there could still be something that people perceive differently. I love science and hate AB testing for purposes other than personal revelation. I don't want a survey group involved, but that's just me.
At my point, its not that I don't believe there is a difference between Riken and Holoco or that the direction of components could play a factor, but it scares me a bit. Regardless, I'll have 2-3 more years of building better quality source components, pre-amps, amps and speakers before I could likely hear the difference.
So, I support millwood's position that for newer hobbyists, posts on the nuance of resistor type/direction might not be directly beneficial, it can serve as notice that any audio product is a synthesis of its parts and appropriate application is tantamount for the most idealized performance. I also support Peter for the efforts involved in seemingly exhaustive testing of various components and the religious reporting of his findings. Am I a convert to using only his recipe? No, I can't afford it!!! But, I can at least appreciate that if I am unsatisfied with the performance of a DIY, that I might consider revising the design or changing components to make it suit my tastes, which will eventually get me farther along in the journey than otherwise possible.
Sandy.
I have heard these arguments so many times in different threads that are ongoing that it's becoming boring.I think though to sum it up we can say the following.
1) There are two camps in hi-fi reproduction.Those that believe that scientific measurements will tell us how a component sounds and those that believe that even though two components may measure the same they can sound different.
2) The first camp believes in double blind testing under rigorous conditions and point to the fact that most of these tests have shown that even experienced musicians or even audio reviewers have not been able statistically to prove that they can distinguish differences between well-constructed components.Their conclusion is that the differences people or reviewers hear is because there are small differences in levels or frequency response between components or because the persons are psychologically influenced to believe they can hear a difference when there isn't one.
3) the second camp believes that double blind testing is not valid because the auditory experience somehow cannot be replicated in strict scientific type tests which create confusion for the listener.They prefer a more subjective long term assessment of components in a comfortable setting.They point out that listening to music is a very subjective experience anyway and that is how components should be evaluated.
4) There are also those somewhere in between these two camps that believe in certain aspects of both.
5) The problem is that one camp tries to impose its views on the other with the same arguments repeated over and over without any conclusions being reached.
6) The wisest position is to say that if one seriously does not hear important differences between components then good for them, they can always be satisfied with "radio shack" type components that are nice and cheap.If on the other hand one hears "important for them" differences they should also be accepted as being valid conclusions from their personal standpoint and be allowed without criticism to pursue their search for a system that satisfies them.
I think that just about covers it.
1) There are two camps in hi-fi reproduction.Those that believe that scientific measurements will tell us how a component sounds and those that believe that even though two components may measure the same they can sound different.
2) The first camp believes in double blind testing under rigorous conditions and point to the fact that most of these tests have shown that even experienced musicians or even audio reviewers have not been able statistically to prove that they can distinguish differences between well-constructed components.Their conclusion is that the differences people or reviewers hear is because there are small differences in levels or frequency response between components or because the persons are psychologically influenced to believe they can hear a difference when there isn't one.
3) the second camp believes that double blind testing is not valid because the auditory experience somehow cannot be replicated in strict scientific type tests which create confusion for the listener.They prefer a more subjective long term assessment of components in a comfortable setting.They point out that listening to music is a very subjective experience anyway and that is how components should be evaluated.
4) There are also those somewhere in between these two camps that believe in certain aspects of both.
5) The problem is that one camp tries to impose its views on the other with the same arguments repeated over and over without any conclusions being reached.
6) The wisest position is to say that if one seriously does not hear important differences between components then good for them, they can always be satisfied with "radio shack" type components that are nice and cheap.If on the other hand one hears "important for them" differences they should also be accepted as being valid conclusions from their personal standpoint and be allowed without criticism to pursue their search for a system that satisfies them.
I think that just about covers it.
I'm in the middle of all that, Protos.
If I can detect a difference, I can detect it, Blind Test or not.
I did it several times.
And I believe there are things you can't measure.
Soundstage, musicality...
In the end, it's subjective.
It's your taste.
The best amp for you may not be the best for me.
But if the difference is there I don't understand why in a blind test people can't detect it.
Or is it that most reviewers like to see a nice box?
If I can detect a difference, I can detect it, Blind Test or not.
I did it several times.
And I believe there are things you can't measure.
Soundstage, musicality...
In the end, it's subjective.
It's your taste.
The best amp for you may not be the best for me.
But if the difference is there I don't understand why in a blind test people can't detect it.
Or is it that most reviewers like to see a nice box?
They have distortion and noise.
A carbon resistor has more noise than a film resistor of the same value.
And it's a known fact that if you make a stepped attenuator with carbon resistors and another one with film resistors, they will have a different sound.
Some people may even prefer the softer sound of the stepped attenuator made with carbon resistors.
Others will prefer the one with the film resistors.
But then, this is a matter of taste, and also the sum of the character of the other elements of the system.
A carbon resistor has more noise than a film resistor of the same value.
And it's a known fact that if you make a stepped attenuator with carbon resistors and another one with film resistors, they will have a different sound.
Some people may even prefer the softer sound of the stepped attenuator made with carbon resistors.
Others will prefer the one with the film resistors.
But then, this is a matter of taste, and also the sum of the character of the other elements of the system.
Peter Daniel said:Did you try tantalum?
Very difficult to find non magnetic Tantalum now. We tried AN
Tants, which have mag end caps, not worth money really.
Appears that tants everyone loves are original NOS non mag
ones.
Rhopoint precision WW, non mag, are avail Farnell sound good.
Still looking for a great sounding CHEAP resistor.
Terry
sorry to post in the middle of this huge debate, but i have a question. has anyone else found that when the tabs of two gainclone chips are conected electrically, one channel has no output? both my gainclones are mouned directly on the heat sink, but they are on seperate heatsinks. today, i tried connecting both heatsinks together with a pice of metal, and one channel stoped working! i immediatly disconnected power, and felt the chips, they were not even warm, so i tried again, with the same result. has anyone else noticed this? i do not know why this would happen, because both tabs are at -v.
analog_sa, terry, millwood & all
I just changed the resistors on the o/p of my cd723 from cheapest metal oxide to NEOHM presision W/W from RS...
Thorsten recommended these to me and I have used them a few times - always with very pleasing results.
To give W/W resistors a fair trial I think it's important to try the non inductive types. (I don't think that the Welwyn are NI )
NEOHM may have the edge over RHOPOINT as they have solid copper leads.
In this case it was a very easy to hear a big difference between resistors - going from a really cheap one to a quite good one in a system were this was ( almost ) the last cheap resistor & therefore was quite a weak link.
If you have a system with many standard cheapo resistors & try changing one to a 'Good' one, the sound of the system will probably still be dominated by the charactor of the cheaper ones and difference may well be very hard to notice. In my case here, it would have been very difficult to miss the difference. It was quite dramatic & quite a relief as I had not been comfortable with my system sound since I did a gainclone PSU rewire recently that brought more clarity & low level detail.
Today I will try changing the very last cheapo resistor - Rf on my CD o/p LM 6182 - using another nice resistor from RS
SM precision thin film, RN series from meggitt
these are tiny & therefore good as feedback resistors soldered directly onto chip pins. ( possible for anyone using LM 1875 )
cheers
mike
I just changed the resistors on the o/p of my cd723 from cheapest metal oxide to NEOHM presision W/W from RS...
Thorsten recommended these to me and I have used them a few times - always with very pleasing results.
To give W/W resistors a fair trial I think it's important to try the non inductive types. (I don't think that the Welwyn are NI )
NEOHM may have the edge over RHOPOINT as they have solid copper leads.
In this case it was a very easy to hear a big difference between resistors - going from a really cheap one to a quite good one in a system were this was ( almost ) the last cheap resistor & therefore was quite a weak link.
If you have a system with many standard cheapo resistors & try changing one to a 'Good' one, the sound of the system will probably still be dominated by the charactor of the cheaper ones and difference may well be very hard to notice. In my case here, it would have been very difficult to miss the difference. It was quite dramatic & quite a relief as I had not been comfortable with my system sound since I did a gainclone PSU rewire recently that brought more clarity & low level detail.
Today I will try changing the very last cheapo resistor - Rf on my CD o/p LM 6182 - using another nice resistor from RS
SM precision thin film, RN series from meggitt
these are tiny & therefore good as feedback resistors soldered directly onto chip pins. ( possible for anyone using LM 1875 )
cheers
mike
mikelm said:
Mike, you may be very well right and resistors do make a difference. But how and why?
If cheapo resistors do make a differrence, thinking about all those cheapo transistor-based resistors in op-amps. How horrible would THEY have sounded? and no matter how good of a resistor you use out side of them, it is not going to change the weakest link - in this case, those cheapo horrible resistors in a chip.
then using your own theory, how do you explain the sound improvement?
Maybe science just isn't there to explain horrible sounding inexpensive resistors.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.