If the idea (or whatever is patented) is more than 17 years old, the patents expire.
Copyright is much longer, more than 75 years IIRC.
So if it is off legal protection, the legal issues would be less of a problem for someone to make the things.
Like Tubelab said above, chip making is a long dispersed process, taking months at different sites, with shipping time to be added.
The Far East makers seem to be doing their work in the same area, so their shipment times between plants may be less.
Also, they do make high voltage devices already, adapting may be easier for them, to change from LED drivers to audio chips on the same equipment for example.
I do not claim to be an expert on this...but in LEDs I see direct drive LED chips, the mains connects to the chip, drivers and LEDs on the same ceramic backed package. Just bond to heat sink, with conventional frame and thermal grease, or thermal glue, and you are done, after soldering in the wires of course.
That means the process is able to make mains voltage chips with up to 200 Watts LED power.
If they can do this, they can make audio chips too, but I cannot tell what type of silicon will be used for the different parts.
I do not see this type of device from Western sources, all Far East...China, Korea, Japan...the chips are designed and made there.
Copyright is much longer, more than 75 years IIRC.
So if it is off legal protection, the legal issues would be less of a problem for someone to make the things.
Like Tubelab said above, chip making is a long dispersed process, taking months at different sites, with shipping time to be added.
The Far East makers seem to be doing their work in the same area, so their shipment times between plants may be less.
Also, they do make high voltage devices already, adapting may be easier for them, to change from LED drivers to audio chips on the same equipment for example.
I do not claim to be an expert on this...but in LEDs I see direct drive LED chips, the mains connects to the chip, drivers and LEDs on the same ceramic backed package. Just bond to heat sink, with conventional frame and thermal grease, or thermal glue, and you are done, after soldering in the wires of course.
That means the process is able to make mains voltage chips with up to 200 Watts LED power.
If they can do this, they can make audio chips too, but I cannot tell what type of silicon will be used for the different parts.
I do not see this type of device from Western sources, all Far East...China, Korea, Japan...the chips are designed and made there.
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Second sources making say the 7800 series voltage regulators could probably make 3886’s, IF they had the license. May need Bi-MOS capability, but that’s not unheard of these days as a lot of the more generic linear ICs use it. The problem with a Chinese fake is that they’ll “design” something that looks and smells vaguely like it, but will not resemble a real one at all inside other than the power, input, and output pins will probably be in the right place.
Check out CRC Micro
Home_Welcome to CR Micro
And: Audio Amplifier_Welcome to CR Micro
Competent, I think, and not some fly by night characters.
Parent owns a company that made 11.7 BILLION liters of beer in 2016.
Home_Welcome to CR Micro
And: Audio Amplifier_Welcome to CR Micro
Competent, I think, and not some fly by night characters.
Parent owns a company that made 11.7 BILLION liters of beer in 2016.
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VERY interesting.
No LM3886 class amp (yet) because probably not sold in required amounts, but they make "equivalents" for MANY very popular ones.
I am particularly interested in their CD2050CZ ; do you know if they sell direct in 100 to 1000 quantities?
How to get pricing and ordering information?
Similar to TI "direct sales"?
Preferably straight from Factory, trying to avoid middlemen who only add their cut.
Thanks.
No LM3886 class amp (yet) because probably not sold in required amounts, but they make "equivalents" for MANY very popular ones.
I am particularly interested in their CD2050CZ ; do you know if they sell direct in 100 to 1000 quantities?
How to get pricing and ordering information?
Similar to TI "direct sales"?
Preferably straight from Factory, trying to avoid middlemen who only add their cut.
Thanks.
Online Message_华润微电子欢迎您
Samples:
Services and Support_Welcome to CR Micro
Power Device business group:
Overseas Sales Department: Tel: 886-02-26598770 Fax: 886-02-26598771 AddressFloor 4, No. 194, Zhouzi Street, Neihu District, Taipei, Taiwan, China
Integrated Circuit Business Group:
Office in Hong Kong: Tel: 852-26670373 Fax: 852-26643720 Address:Flat 404, 11/F, Block IV, Taiping Industrial Centre, 51A Ting Kok Road, Taipo, Hong Kong, China
Samples:
Services and Support_Welcome to CR Micro
Power Device business group:
Overseas Sales Department: Tel: 886-02-26598770 Fax: 886-02-26598771 AddressFloor 4, No. 194, Zhouzi Street, Neihu District, Taipei, Taiwan, China
Integrated Circuit Business Group:
Office in Hong Kong: Tel: 852-26670373 Fax: 852-26643720 Address:Flat 404, 11/F, Block IV, Taiping Industrial Centre, 51A Ting Kok Road, Taipo, Hong Kong, China
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Street price (single pieces) for 1875 is 20-25 US cents, 4440 about 35 cents.
2050 (ST) was $0.60 if available.
They will ask much less from China in bulk. Shipment of course will be extra, and Customs, etc.
Please do post your results after testing, it will give some information about the quality of the chips.
2050 (ST) was $0.60 if available.
They will ask much less from China in bulk. Shipment of course will be extra, and Customs, etc.
Please do post your results after testing, it will give some information about the quality of the chips.
@JFM:
Any response from CRC Micro about their 2050?
The party speaker maker in Brazil may be a client for them, as in chips supplied to the maker of wheeled trolley speakers with built in amplifier.
@wg_ski: If the pins are the same, and the thing performs as expected...you have any objection if the item was actually improved, somebody took a long hard look, and decided the same result could be achieved in a different way? Maybe a smaller die, maybe better heat transfer, whatever.
So I am waiting for JMF to try them and tell us his opinion.
jbau, another member, tried a Chinese 1875, he could find no difference and ended his trial. It is here in the forum posts.
Any response from CRC Micro about their 2050?
The party speaker maker in Brazil may be a client for them, as in chips supplied to the maker of wheeled trolley speakers with built in amplifier.
@wg_ski: If the pins are the same, and the thing performs as expected...you have any objection if the item was actually improved, somebody took a long hard look, and decided the same result could be achieved in a different way? Maybe a smaller die, maybe better heat transfer, whatever.
So I am waiting for JMF to try them and tell us his opinion.
jbau, another member, tried a Chinese 1875, he could find no difference and ended his trial. It is here in the forum posts.
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I doubt that some fab making copies would make “improvements”, unless it came as a happy coincidence. Maybe the breakdown voltage of the process would be better, or that their doping profile might result in higher hfe. It could just as easily go the other way.
Redesign like a smaller die wouldn’t improve anything - thermal feedback would be worse and Tj would be higher. Die attach processes used by copiers and fakers are typically much worse than those used by the big boys (processes and material sets can be closely guarded trade secrets, and not necessarily use the cheapest materials available). They would have to go out of their way to redesign an improved functional equivalent - and that would cost more than the original. Would people buy it if they did? Maybe us audiophools, but not industry - if it cost a nickel more than a current production ST part. I wouldn’t count on it being available.
Look what happened with STK modules. The “functional equivalents” are horrible. They blow up at the drop of a hat. You can make a better one yourself.
Redesign like a smaller die wouldn’t improve anything - thermal feedback would be worse and Tj would be higher. Die attach processes used by copiers and fakers are typically much worse than those used by the big boys (processes and material sets can be closely guarded trade secrets, and not necessarily use the cheapest materials available). They would have to go out of their way to redesign an improved functional equivalent - and that would cost more than the original. Would people buy it if they did? Maybe us audiophools, but not industry - if it cost a nickel more than a current production ST part. I wouldn’t count on it being available.
Look what happened with STK modules. The “functional equivalents” are horrible. They blow up at the drop of a hat. You can make a better one yourself.
Very good performance to power consumption and efficiency goals.
Many years ago I had designed the test board for a new type of RF frequency synthesizer chip. The chips had been designed in house and were late in arrival from one of Motorola's semiconductor fabs. Multiple heated exchanges between all parties involved had been going on when I got an email that the first engineering samples were on their way to me by Fedex.
Upon arrival I popped one in the fixture to discover zero current drain. I tested for continuity from any pin to any other pin and found none. I even soldered a wire down all the pins on one side, and a second wire down all the pins on the opposite side of the QFP package, and applied 120 VAC directly from the wall outlet (DON'T TRY THIS, a giant fireball will ensue on a good chip due to flaming carbonized plastic). I labeled the photo "ESD test" which "passed."
I sent some of the chips off for decapping and X-raying (in house capability) to confirm what I already knew.
Rather than feeding the already serious firestorm between us and the fab, I simply filled out the predetermined test form showing excellent performance to all current drain, efficiency, and ESD specs, and failure of all others. I also included a cover sheet congratulating them for the performance on current drain, but stating that all the active RF specs "need major improvement."
This actually got more action than the previous firestorm because more than one metric (delivery time) was now in jeopardy of meeting the joint project goals.
Sadly none yet, one way or the other.
Will give them 2 weeks and ask again.
As of "improving" ... not impossible but I guess main commercial goal is to be able to replace originals, period.
Personally I don´t even demand a transistor by transistor exact copy, but a functional equivalent, a small 5 pin plastic case which takes +/-25V and feeds 4 or 5A peak to a speaker without exploding even under some abuse.
Motorola style low consumption and excellent ESD performance do not need to apply
Let me put this in another way:
We all know that Chinese factories have started by initially making things as per the original factories did abroad (that means outside China).
That can be called the monkey stage, blind emulation.
Then they started making tools, designing tools, and improving the processes, and in some cases, like cell phones, they have evolved to the design stage.
This happened in Japan, and in Korea also, all of their industries evolved.
So my thinking was, what if they actually improved or changed the design to give more yields per wafer, for example.
And JMF has answered that, he wants a functional equivalent, which is reliable in large volumes.
That is the desired result..."Quality is fitness of purpose"
We all know that Chinese factories have started by initially making things as per the original factories did abroad (that means outside China).
That can be called the monkey stage, blind emulation.
Then they started making tools, designing tools, and improving the processes, and in some cases, like cell phones, they have evolved to the design stage.
This happened in Japan, and in Korea also, all of their industries evolved.
So my thinking was, what if they actually improved or changed the design to give more yields per wafer, for example.
And JMF has answered that, he wants a functional equivalent, which is reliable in large volumes.
That is the desired result..."Quality is fitness of purpose"
@JMF:
I just checked, the import price in 2016 was $0.01 for 2050 (200k quantity) and $0.03 for 4440 amps. (Delhi, India)
So your order for 1000 will be like $20 or so...maybe the reason for less interest on their side.
There is also an issue of low invoice value to reduce the Customs duty paid. Still, your value will be less than $200 to the maker, a lot more will go in shipment expenses.
And I have no idea of the import duty you need to pay.
See if you can get a few to try from local or Brazilian sources.
I just checked, the import price in 2016 was $0.01 for 2050 (200k quantity) and $0.03 for 4440 amps. (Delhi, India)
So your order for 1000 will be like $20 or so...maybe the reason for less interest on their side.
There is also an issue of low invoice value to reduce the Customs duty paid. Still, your value will be less than $200 to the maker, a lot more will go in shipment expenses.
And I have no idea of the import duty you need to pay.
See if you can get a few to try from local or Brazilian sources.
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I´d LOVE to know how that promise holds up, now we are almost reaching its due date.
No, I am not holding my breath