I just read through Pano's gain article which Andrew T linked to, interesting and it backs up my original position of wanting less gain at the power amp. Maybe I should fit my fixed attenuator on the power amp's input but I don't have problems with noise at the volume levels I use so i'll probably leave things as they are now, until I get my new amp built 
I have but i can't change them. Pano makes the point that it's better to reduce the power amp's gain and increase the pre stage gain, this means that less noise from the source and pre amp is amplified at the final stage. Makes good sense to me and it also has the benefit of giving you a decent range of volume adjustment. I have had an issue with volume controls for many years because of this, they set things up so that the average x30 gain power amp reaches clipping point within the first half (or less) of potentiometer adjustment. This is a bigger issue with the stepped attenuator I now use because it makes fine adjustment almost impossible. I have now sorted that issue by using two miniature stepped potentiometers, one on my source selector and the other on the input at my active pre. It would be better to reduce the input level at the power amp in the same way most pro audio amp builders do but if I was going to keep on using my current power amp, I would simply reduce it's gain to around x15 or even x12.
Anyway my system is now better than at any time in the past, i'm happy with it which is what's important to me at the end of the day.
Anyway my system is now better than at any time in the past, i'm happy with it which is what's important to me at the end of the day.
You have added attenuation to allow you to work with excessive system gain.
That is not the optimum way.
You have confirmed that going passive ruins the sound quality.
That points me to incorrect Source and Receiver impedances.
You can get closer to optimum by removing your excessive gain and sorting the impedances such that a buffered Source solves the sound quality problem that you have identified.
Most lower cost commercial equipment cannot adequately drive cables.
A higher impedance passive volume control cannot adequately drive cables.
Buffers at the Source end of the cables solves this inadequacy.
That is not the optimum way.
You have confirmed that going passive ruins the sound quality.
That points me to incorrect Source and Receiver impedances.
You can get closer to optimum by removing your excessive gain and sorting the impedances such that a buffered Source solves the sound quality problem that you have identified.
Most lower cost commercial equipment cannot adequately drive cables.
A higher impedance passive volume control cannot adequately drive cables.
Buffers at the Source end of the cables solves this inadequacy.
It's not the case that going passive ruins the sound, it is still decent BUT I prefer the sound with the active pre/buffer in the chain. It does not appear to add noise but it does increase bass weight/impact when listening at low volume late at night, this I like. It also very slightly rounds off the high end, which can be just a tiny bit sharp, this depends on what music I play of course, it's more noticeable with some recordings and not so with others. Signal cable lengths are short, mostly 1/2m with the exception of the turntable to phono stage interconnect, which is 1.2m out of necessity. I like the fact that I can now use of most of the volume pot's available travel before I get close to clipping, this makes fine adjustment using the stepped attenuator possible. The previous setups I have had put me off using stepped attenuators, I had an expensive German headphone amp a few years ago which had one fitted and with the full 2v coming in from a cd player it was difficult sometimes to get the volume adjustment right, one click = not loud enough, next click = too loud and it was a 32 step attenuator.
Buffering/attenuating at the source is not recommended as it can add noise which is amplified at the final stage along with the music signal. This is why virtually every source outputs around 2v these days. However this is also what leads to people buying fixed attenuators.
I did look into those Rothwell fixed attenuators which are marketed to address this issue but they are quite expensive for all they are. I think I'll stick with my miniature stepped attenuator at the rear of my active pre, I can still vary it if I need to which I could not do with the Rothwell ones.
This is for now, it may well change when I get the new amp in the system.
Buffering/attenuating at the source is not recommended as it can add noise which is amplified at the final stage along with the music signal. This is why virtually every source outputs around 2v these days. However this is also what leads to people buying fixed attenuators.
I did look into those Rothwell fixed attenuators which are marketed to address this issue but they are quite expensive for all they are. I think I'll stick with my miniature stepped attenuator at the rear of my active pre, I can still vary it if I need to which I could not do with the Rothwell ones.
This is for now, it may well change when I get the new amp in the system.
As Andrew already wrote this suggests an impedance problem, fixed by the preamp/buffer.
IMHO, what you (should) want from a preamp is utterly transparence, not to act as a band-aid to other devices' faults...
BTW All these posts on this argument are starting to be too much, IMHO.
+1
Davy, You have already mentioned possibly the most significant element in your project path. The FE sounds AND responds differently than any other chip based amp I have heard. Let me encourage you to complete the FE builds, and then find the source you like. I really admire your depth of discovery and willingness to share your experiences. But you will find the new amps will probably make you rethink your signal path. It's a different bird.
Davy, You have already mentioned possibly the most significant element in your project path. The FE sounds AND responds differently than any other chip based amp I have heard. Let me encourage you to complete the FE builds, and then find the source you like. I really admire your depth of discovery and willingness to share your experiences. But you will find the new amps will probably make you rethink your signal path. It's a different bird.
Hi Andrew
Good points
In the past I’ve used TVC with a buffer (DCB1 sans pot) before the transformers which I’ve found in the past ensures that they are driven correctly. I gave up on the pot in a box solution years ago for the reasons outlined by Davy SQ wise. I now have the Buffalo 3 with the buffered OP’s which eliminated the need for a second buffer (hope that makes sense). I have a DIY 9023 based DAC and the buffers which I’ve had from Patric really do liven things up nicely. BTW the 9023 current pump has barely enough current to drive even a short cable IMHO. With the Buffered OP it’s much more dynamic and powerful sounding beast IMHO.
Having the buffer doing all of the heavy lifting cable and pot wise gives the source a much better chance of sounding good.
Yup some sources can really struggle to drive even a few meters of cable with a pot in the middle just to make things even more difficult. That can sometimes result in the flat Dynamics, rolled off top end which I just could never get on with. OH another trick could be to use low capacitance cables with passives which can help ease the top end performance issue.
BTW my first ever DIY build was an ECC88 buffered passive pre which still sounds good.
Some buffer examples would be great if you have any you think are worth looking at.
Davy
I really think that you should try the DCB1 which to my ears gets around ‘’most’’ of the problems mentioned by Andrew. I just happen to have a spare DCB1 (if I can find it) board and a quad of matched 2SK170BL which you could have if it’s any use to you. You’d need to find the rest of the components but it’s a great pre. Could be a companion project for the MYREF build and a really sweet sounding combination at the end of the work.
The DCB1 sounds really dynamic and meaty with the MYREF with great focus and bass response to my ears in my set up.
Teabag runs a red, black and blue DCB1 Kit GB with some nice components at a really good price. He also does a great job with organising things.
Yup a slick operation.
A less expensive Option could be the standard B1 which I also have. It sounds good but not as good as the fancy Dan DCB1 TBH.
Interesting conversation
Thanks shoom, you have made my point better than I can.
My system is far from perfect and yes I do have to use a 'sticking plaster' to make it more enjoyable. I don't dispute what Andrew has said, I merely tried to outline my reasons for doing what I have done. Clearly I failed.
Dario, I am sorry i continued with this clearly off topic ramble. I will refrain from discussing my system on the forum any further and I will keep MY reasons for what I do to myself in future.
If I have any problems with the FE build, I will PM you. Thank you for your patience.
My system is far from perfect and yes I do have to use a 'sticking plaster' to make it more enjoyable. I don't dispute what Andrew has said, I merely tried to outline my reasons for doing what I have done. Clearly I failed.
Dario, I am sorry i continued with this clearly off topic ramble. I will refrain from discussing my system on the forum any further and I will keep MY reasons for what I do to myself in future.
If I have any problems with the FE build, I will PM you. Thank you for your patience.
No problem and your questions are welcome.
I've simply tried to help you and also keep the thread on topic.
You can PM me or you can post here, as I've said:
your questions, comments and opinions are welcome here.
Hold up a minute
IMHO it’s not been an off topic ramble at all.
Nope no more off topic than some posts that I’ve read.
I thought the points that you raised where valid and well put.
The question that I thought that we were discussing was.
‘’How do I get the best from the MyRef FE?’’ (that best is superb)
IMHO we’ve had a nice chat with good points raised so
No slipping away Davy
I’ll need your help with my next build. I think that I remember you saying that this was your first GB? Well I’ve done a few and believe me the best most fun part is sharing it with others, discussing options and once you’ve done then it’s helping others get over the finishing line.
I hope that you are still up for that.
Hold up a minute
IMHO it’s not been an off topic ramble at all.
Nope no more off topic than some posts that I’ve read.
I thought the points that you raised where valid and well put.
The question that I thought that we were discussing was.
‘’How do I get the best from the MyRef FE?’’ (that best is superb)
IMHO we’ve had a nice chat with good points raised so
No slipping away Davy
I’ll need your help with my next build. I think that I remember you saying that this was your first GB? Well I’ve done a few and believe me the best most fun part is sharing it with others, discussing options and once you’ve done then it’s helping others get over the finishing line.
I hope that you are still up for that.
Thanks Shaun, I am used to struggling away on my own with diy electronics and although many years of working with marine electrics and electronic equipment installation has helped my background knowledge, there are large areas where It doesn't come up to scratch and I am still trying to catch up. I started messing about with diy hifi in the early 1980's but there has been long periods where it was abandoned because other issues had to take priority.
I AM looking forward to my first GB, it will make a nice change from being something of a loner in this confusing hobby.
Slainte
Davy
If you ll look around you might find people who do something similar.
Otherwise your friends and colleagues will:
1. won't give a damn about diy
2. laugh
3. then get serious
4. and finally ask to sell hi fi (or hi end
? ) And you'll say no to it
lol, yup I get that to a degree, but they usually refrain from calling me a nerd, at least to my face. Mind you being over six foot and almost 16 stone might put them off a tad, they just roll their eyes and quickly change the subject when I answer the - "what do you do for a hobby" question
I still don't know what answer they expect, I might try saying butterfly collecting or flower arranging next time - just to see what response I get
I still don't know what answer they expect, I might try saying butterfly collecting or flower arranging next time - just to see what response I get
BTW recently been to Richer Sounds, was getting replacement TV.
Did you see how they promote cables ? :
There are no strict rules about which cables you should use with any particular system. As a guideline, you should spend at least 10% of the system price on cables. Manufacturers usually supply leads with equipment but you are best to regard these as no more than get-you-going items. Invest in something better as soon as you can.
Chap next to me was buying cable for speaker. His question was if that particular cable would be good match to his system ? Guy behind the counter had an epic answer: definitely, don't you see it is silver ?
I know there is a lot of discussion about that type of things but I d like to highlight one point.
DIY taught me to see the difference ( or at least to pay attention) between merchant claims and real value of the product.
Would I buy extremely expensive amp if I could ? NO. But I d spend money on room acoustics instead. AndI d build my own one.
Still, there are people like Dario, who have good hearing and maintain integrity through their projects, getting things done the way I could not even imagine. End result- amplifier you are going to build.
This amp so good I feel my speakers are the weakest link now.
I m sorry for OT Dario but you are really good at bettering amps and helping people to make them. Thx.
Did you see how they promote cables ? :
There are no strict rules about which cables you should use with any particular system. As a guideline, you should spend at least 10% of the system price on cables. Manufacturers usually supply leads with equipment but you are best to regard these as no more than get-you-going items. Invest in something better as soon as you can.
Chap next to me was buying cable for speaker. His question was if that particular cable would be good match to his system ? Guy behind the counter had an epic answer: definitely, don't you see it is silver ?
I know there is a lot of discussion about that type of things but I d like to highlight one point.
DIY taught me to see the difference ( or at least to pay attention) between merchant claims and real value of the product.
Would I buy extremely expensive amp if I could ? NO. But I d spend money on room acoustics instead. AndI d build my own one.
Still, there are people like Dario, who have good hearing and maintain integrity through their projects, getting things done the way I could not even imagine. End result- amplifier you are going to build.
This amp so good I feel my speakers are the weakest link now.
I m sorry for OT Dario but you are really good at bettering amps and helping people to make them. Thx.
You're welcome, Ivan. And thanks for the kind words.
Let me clarify one thing... these FE threads are full of off-topic posts and Davy's ones are welcome as all the others.
My only concern was that both him and Andrew were basically repeating their respective positions without reaching an agreement, on several posts.