analog_sa said:
...i don't insist preaching to the deaf...
Who are the deaf referred to here?
I know you are not, but you won't be caught dead sharing a subjective experience, right? As it doesn't tally well with the theory
I tend not to share subjective experience primarily because I don't take the flyspeck approach to listening that most seem to do so I can't relate my experience in such terms. I listen intuitively and ultimately can only say what it is that I like or don't like.
Also, my particular subjective tastes and preferences aren't the same as everyone else's (nor is anyone else's the same as everyone else's) so I don't see a whole lot of value to it and prefer to simply try things for myself and encourage others to try things for themselves.
And no, my particular tastes and preferences don't have any particular correlation with objective techincal specs and measurements.
se
chips...
Yup, thanks to all of them. However, you’ll hardly find anything there you can call “their own design” – implemented circuits are quite known. I personally wait for that moment when they discover CFB power amp. I will probably forget discrete amps then.
Call it whatever you want to. But, what the difference does it make?
I thought the same (because it was “logical” to me) unless I replaced mentioned 2 inches of wire in my passive pre.
Pedja
Gerontius said:
Yup, thanks to all of them. However, you’ll hardly find anything there you can call “their own design” – implemented circuits are quite known. I personally wait for that moment when they discover CFB power amp. I will probably forget discrete amps then.
Gerontius said:
Call it whatever you want to. But, what the difference does it make?
Gerontius said:
I thought the same (because it was “logical” to me) unless I replaced mentioned 2 inches of wire in my passive pre.
Pedja
I know that. Nor do mine, but a lot of people have a problem with that. I attribute it to aural-deficiency induced bitterness
And god help if they've passed a few engineering (and it appears also financial ) courses. My hearing is not sensational; i hardly hear above 15kHz and certainly am not that perceptive to long term effects like cable burn-in. Do i accuse anyone with better hearing/perception in being deluded or high on placebo pills?
peter
I guess the point in the whole discussion is that we shall take those golden-ear type claims with a huge grain of salt.
After all, none of them has had the guts to put their claims to an objective test and win $10K of easy money in the process.
But they have no problem insisting on their super-human hearings and their equally super-sounding amps,
No wonder it has been pretty hard selling those amps to san people.
After all, none of them has had the guts to put their claims to an objective test and win $10K of easy money in the process.
But they have no problem insisting on their super-human hearings and their equally super-sounding amps,
No wonder it has been pretty hard selling those amps to san people.
millwood said:After all, none of them has had the guts to put their claims to an objective test and win $10K of easy money in the process.
But they have no problem insisting on their super-human hearings and their equally super-sounding amps,
No wonder it has been pretty hard selling those amps to san people.
Here's a good read for you. I don't think you've seen this thread and I suspect you might like it
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...rpage=15&highlight=blind+testing&pagenumber=1
Now, here's something to make more so called "golden ear" doubts
As some of you know already, I've been replacing Riken resistors in my amps, because Caddocks appeared to sound better. Now if there was no difference between resistors, do you think I would go through all the trouble to replace them in 20 amps of our initial run? We gave the job to some technician who supposedly new good soldering practices. I was just about to send one amp to Netherlands, but decided to listen to it one more time before shipment. The amp sounded not as I remembered it, the sound was sort of disjoined, artificial and annoying. I opened the amp and this is what I saw (have a look at Caddock feedback resistor)
As some of you know already, I've been replacing Riken resistors in my amps, because Caddocks appeared to sound better. Now if there was no difference between resistors, do you think I would go through all the trouble to replace them in 20 amps of our initial run? We gave the job to some technician who supposedly new good soldering practices. I was just about to send one amp to Netherlands, but decided to listen to it one more time before shipment. The amp sounded not as I remembered it, the sound was sort of disjoined, artificial and annoying. I opened the amp and this is what I saw (have a look at Caddock feedback resistor)
Attachments
Now, I was always trying to mount feedback resistor very close to the IC pins, mostly because I was told that short feedback loop was important in this amp and also it looks more elegant this way.
So this was very good opportunity to check the imprtance of the length of feedback loop. I asked my wife to listen more to the amp and so did I, also my son and 6 year old daughter After a while, I changed the mounting of a resistor, this time using indeed good soldering practices and had another listening session. I was not hesitant about it, the amp sounded the way I know the sound of this amp and there was no doubt it was better. Both my wife and my son confirmed it, the daughter wasn't sure
On the right binding post you can see 3 pieces of 2" long solid core wire. Once I used silver solid copper wire, as I thought it may sound better. It didn't, the sound was too light, withought enough of bottom end extention and substance. Top end was probably better, but overall balance was lacking.
As this thread is about craftsmanship, I believe those pics make a nice addition. You probably have to ask Fred, to post some engineering illustrations.
So this was very good opportunity to check the imprtance of the length of feedback loop. I asked my wife to listen more to the amp and so did I, also my son and 6 year old daughter
After a while, I changed the mounting of a resistor, this time using indeed good soldering practices and had another listening session. I was not hesitant about it, the amp sounded the way I know the sound of this amp and there was no doubt it was better. Both my wife and my son confirmed it, the daughter wasn't sureOn the right binding post you can see 3 pieces of 2" long solid core wire. Once I used silver solid copper wire, as I thought it may sound better. It didn't, the sound was too light, withought enough of bottom end extention and substance. Top end was probably better, but overall balance was lacking.
As this thread is about craftsmanship, I believe those pics make a nice addition.
You probably have to ask Fred, to post some engineering illustrations.Attachments
Hi,
Peter D,
When looking at the pics I still some no-nos from my book of experience.
I hope you don't mind for pointing you to possible improvements, operative word being "possible".
In both pics I notice some sharp bents on lead out wires. Not good practice since it tends to break copper lattices.
Try gently curved bents, it keeps the electrons on track.
Also, I notice you use the stand-off on the left as a ground, is this a non-magnetic item? If not try to source a copper based one such as brass.
Thirdly, you are going to remove the plastic from the BG caps one of these days, aren't you?
Oh, yes..most silverplated copper wire sounds pretty thin IME.
You could give pure 4N silver a try, after all you won't need much of it anyway. It will subjectively shorten the signal path even more.
Cheers,
Peter D,
When looking at the pics I still some no-nos from my book of experience.
I hope you don't mind for pointing you to possible improvements, operative word being "possible".
In both pics I notice some sharp bents on lead out wires. Not good practice since it tends to break copper lattices.
Try gently curved bents, it keeps the electrons on track.
Also, I notice you use the stand-off on the left as a ground, is this a non-magnetic item? If not try to source a copper based one such as brass.
Thirdly, you are going to remove the plastic from the BG caps one of these days, aren't you?
Oh, yes..most silverplated copper wire sounds pretty thin IME.
You could give pure 4N silver a try, after all you won't need much of it anyway. It will subjectively shorten the signal path even more.
Cheers,
Actually it was silver solid core wire (not copper, I made mistake while typing). I didn't like it. Maybe purity wasn't good enough, it seemed harder to bend than the wire used to terminate Jensen caps for instance.
I can't take off the jackets off those BG, because they will be loose in those 7/8" holes. I don't bother with that as I think that those white mounts do more tho the sound than taking off the jackets. I did take 'em off on 4.7 coupling caps and notice more smoothness, but nothing really to write home about. I prefer not to use coupling caps at all in my own amps.
The standoffs are brass, as I had to solder the copper wires to them.
I will still continue to use sharp bends on my copper wires. I have enough trouble with making those p2p connections already
I can't take off the jackets off those BG, because they will be loose in those 7/8" holes. I don't bother with that as I think that those white mounts do more tho the sound than taking off the jackets. I did take 'em off on 4.7 coupling caps and notice more smoothness, but nothing really to write home about. I prefer not to use coupling caps at all in my own amps.
The standoffs are brass, as I had to solder the copper wires to them.
I will still continue to use sharp bends on my copper wires. I have enough trouble with making those p2p connections already
Hi,
Pure silver wire, as gold, is much softer than copper at equal gauge...
Not that hard to solve on a prototype anyway...the white block is something similar to Delrin I suppose?
I can well imagine...just think of it as an idea for a next prototype, if it's feasable at all.
In the mean time I'll keep on catching all the derailed electrons for you...
Cheers,
Pure silver wire, as gold, is much softer than copper at equal gauge...
Not that hard to solve on a prototype anyway...the white block is something similar to Delrin I suppose?
I can well imagine...just think of it as an idea for a next prototype, if it's feasable at all.
In the mean time I'll keep on catching all the derailed electrons for you...
Cheers,
Conversly
"By the way, why are you insisting that others are deaf?"
You mean the same people accusing those reporting hearing differences of; self delusion, mass hypnosis, elitism, and even outright fraud? Let me add the clarification then of "deaf to changes in sound in sound quality." This seems to me the same description that person uses when saying "I can't hear the difference" when describing their own null results. Who is insulting who? If they can't here the difference, why are they on such a holy crusade to tell others they can't. Is it perhaps because they are not satisfied with their system and knowledge and resent the hell out of the fact that someone else is. There is so much straightforward physics behind most of this stuff that it is not funny. Many of this details have been described in other non audio scientific and engineering endeavors that it is strange that audio gets single out for the critics from the unqualified. There is plenty of BS in audio and plenty of stuff that works. The worth while discoveries were no made by people sitting around and saying "Its too hard to understand and not worth the effort to try...." A lot of tweak products have been developed by people from other engineering disciplines than audio. Presenting measurements always invokes the "it's to small to make any difference" response from the self described authorities. I don't want these people to hear a difference or learn anything. Their intellectual cowardice and laziness guarantees they never will. I don't won't to hear the it is not worth the money BS, when we are trying to talk about building stuff from scratch. would your time be better spent going to McDonald's for a gourmet meal ( it all taste the same and its cheaper). I want these people to spend as much money as they can on systems that they think are no better than mass market cheap electronics. If this stuff doesn't matter, I just don't understand the absolute zeal that have for coming to tell me what I can't hear and why I can't hear it. Is there some other subject that you people know nothing about that you can go argue about? I will bet there are DOZENS! Go email NASA and tell them how to fix the Space Shuttle. You will save us all tax dollars and maybe someone's life. They aren't up to the task and you will be contributing to something that matters. World hunger and peace in the middle East could sure use your expert input. I could really use you guys to fix the economy as it affecting me personally in very non-subjective ways. Let us know how you make out. Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way!
America and the world need you. Hurry,
Fred
"By the way, why are you insisting that others are deaf?"
You mean the same people accusing those reporting hearing differences of; self delusion, mass hypnosis, elitism, and even outright fraud? Let me add the clarification then of "deaf to changes in sound in sound quality." This seems to me the same description that person uses when saying "I can't hear the difference" when describing their own null results. Who is insulting who? If they can't here the difference, why are they on such a holy crusade to tell others they can't. Is it perhaps because they are not satisfied with their system and knowledge and resent the hell out of the fact that someone else is. There is so much straightforward physics behind most of this stuff that it is not funny. Many of this details have been described in other non audio scientific and engineering endeavors that it is strange that audio gets single out for the critics from the unqualified. There is plenty of BS in audio and plenty of stuff that works. The worth while discoveries were no made by people sitting around and saying "Its too hard to understand and not worth the effort to try...." A lot of tweak products have been developed by people from other engineering disciplines than audio. Presenting measurements always invokes the "it's to small to make any difference" response from the self described authorities. I don't want these people to hear a difference or learn anything. Their intellectual cowardice and laziness guarantees they never will. I don't won't to hear the it is not worth the money BS, when we are trying to talk about building stuff from scratch. would your time be better spent going to McDonald's for a gourmet meal ( it all taste the same and its cheaper). I want these people to spend as much money as they can on systems that they think are no better than mass market cheap electronics. If this stuff doesn't matter, I just don't understand the absolute zeal that have for coming to tell me what I can't hear and why I can't hear it. Is there some other subject that you people know nothing about that you can go argue about? I will bet there are DOZENS! Go email NASA and tell them how to fix the Space Shuttle. You will save us all tax dollars and maybe someone's life. They aren't up to the task and you will be contributing to something that matters. World hunger and peace in the middle East could sure use your expert input. I could really use you guys to fix the economy as it affecting me personally in very non-subjective ways. Let us know how you make out. Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way!
America and the world need you. Hurry,
Fred
Engineering post
"You probably have to ask Fred, to post some engineering illustrations"
Someone might even ask why you are using the type of Caddocks that are no where near the good Caddocks.......
I will leave it to you to research as you desire.
BTW I don't know what solder you use but lead free silver solder joints don't look as nice as regular solder. They but sound better. There are ways to do composite solder joints for sonics and looks and good wetting. More R and D. as I know you don't want to discuss proprietary stuff on the forum.
"You probably have to ask Fred, to post some engineering illustrations"
Someone might even ask why you are using the type of Caddocks that are no where near the good Caddocks.......
I will leave it to you to research as you desire.
BTW I don't know what solder you use but lead free silver solder joints don't look as nice as regular solder. They but sound better. There are ways to do composite solder joints for sonics and looks and good wetting. More R and D. as I know you don't want to discuss proprietary stuff on the forum.
I actually got flamed once over at Slashdot, by a regular on this forum whose name I will not mention, because I recommended the use of lead-free solder. I advised using it for its superior metallurgical properties and as a matter of concern for the environment.
People can be contrary regarding practically anything.
People can be contrary regarding practically anything.
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