you're right, I'm not planning to do it, but I asked because I didn;'t know, but strange there is a way if anybody wants to do it.
Also I found my formulas for the separate high and low pass filters. instead of building 1 crossover for the left and right channels I think it's better to build a separate one for each tweeter and midrange because each crossover uses the exact same capacitor and conductor, just switched around in the circuit, so replacing parts is even simpler:
https://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/passive-crossover-calculator.asp#cc
2nd Order (12 dB per Octave)
L1 (mHy) = (1000 x Impedance) / (6.283 x Crossover Frequency)
C1 (µfd) = 1,000,000 / (6.283 x Impedance x Crossover Frequency)
L2 = L1 x 1.414
C2 = C1 x .707
Also I found my formulas for the separate high and low pass filters. instead of building 1 crossover for the left and right channels I think it's better to build a separate one for each tweeter and midrange because each crossover uses the exact same capacitor and conductor, just switched around in the circuit, so replacing parts is even simpler:
https://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/passive-crossover-calculator.asp#cc
2nd Order (12 dB per Octave)
L1 (mHy) = (1000 x Impedance) / (6.283 x Crossover Frequency)
C1 (µfd) = 1,000,000 / (6.283 x Impedance x Crossover Frequency)
L2 = L1 x 1.414
C2 = C1 x .707
I assume you're talking about filtering the low frequencies from the 6½" speakers.
What you've found is a standard bandpass calculator. Your passband is probably going to be a little too wide for those formulas. Although it's not a big deal to cascade a low-pass and high-pass to create a bandpass, read on:
Using the regular old high pass calculator, ballpark the High Pass values for 4 ohms and what, 75Hz? Now look up the price for those components. And the size. Double it for two speakers, quadruple it for for.
Now consider that if the frequency you've chosen is too low and you need to buy more parts to try raising it a bit. Now consider that your 4 ohm speakers aren't really 4 ohms, and may be quite a 2-3x higher at low frequencies, so you're not really sure what values to use to start with.
Lastly, consider you can cover all of these issues conveniently, accurately, with adjustability, and all for free using the head unit's built-in high-pass. Make sense?
Look further into the actual impedance of each driver...
for the woofer as well as the tweeter. I'm not exactly following what you're saying although cascading crossovers was what I was expecting someone to say, I was hoping someone would have explained how that works, but okay.
I didn't look more into the user manual, but I don't know if this receiver has a high pass feature. I'll look into that but what everyone said here is that it's not worth worrying about.
you're right about the impedances. I put 4 ohms and 2800 into the calculator, I forgot that the speakers are all different impedences. I was wondering why the 2 way crossover calculator was giving me 2 capacitors and 2 conductors, but with all difference values and then the high pass or low pass calculator kept giving me the exact same size capacitors and conductors, I forgot that the speakers are all difference ohms.
I didn't look more into the user manual, but I don't know if this receiver has a high pass feature. I'll look into that but what everyone said here is that it's not worth worrying about.
you're right about the impedances. I put 4 ohms and 2800 into the calculator, I forgot that the speakers are all different impedences. I was wondering why the 2 way crossover calculator was giving me 2 capacitors and 2 conductors, but with all difference values and then the high pass or low pass calculator kept giving me the exact same size capacitors and conductors, I forgot that the speakers are all difference ohms.
Like said from tsmith:
If speakers don't are close, the 1st order can have more sense (where the speakers will be mounted?).
2nd order is more nice for sell into his transparent container, or is a standard for a general installation.
But more imortant is to know which ones speakers are.
Again, HU + speakers it means low power for speakers, so for to protect the tweeter not is necessary a sophisticated filter.
But is important not introduce distortion in the power from head unit.
You cannot know which cut will be for the filter, because you don't know the speakers and you don't know the performance in his mounting place.
Which speakers did you choose?
The link that i've posted is only for example, i think may be suitable for tweeter a 4,7 uF cap or 5,6 uF, it's necessary to try.
But mostly we don't know any about speakers and mounting places, and we don't know which HU.
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You don't need a band pass filter, you need a high pass for tweeter.I found something! It might be exactly what I was asking, however I may not use it and just cut off the low frewuency as everybody here suggested for simplification, but here is what I was wanting:
Passive Crossover Narrow Band Pass Filter Capacitor and Coil Calculator
https://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/narrow-band-pass-calculator.asp#cc
The high pass for woofer must to make from HU.
+1
The other option is to use second order for the tweeter and 1st order for the woofer.
Saves having to re wire the tweeter to be in phase and sounds very good with the right midbass driver.
I have a set of Old school MQ quarts that used the arrangement and they sound fantastic, easily better than the current crop of sub 500 quid speakers.
Low pass e woofer using the head unit as suggested above, there is as little sense in asking the amplifier to create power for the passive crossover to try and burn, much better to save the power for the frequencies the speaker can make.
The other option is to use second order for the tweeter and 1st order for the woofer.
Saves having to re wire the tweeter to be in phase and sounds very good with the right midbass driver.
I have a set of Old school MQ quarts that used the arrangement and they sound fantastic, easily better than the current crop of sub 500 quid speakers.
Low pass e woofer using the head unit as suggested above, there is as little sense in asking the amplifier to create power for the passive crossover to try and burn, much better to save the power for the frequencies the speaker can make.
The is the original question I've been asking since the first post though. The tweeter already has a low pass of 2800 hz. So my question is how can I add a high pass to the tweeter if it already has a low pass? This is why I asked about how to cascade/ combine crossovers and this is also why I am looking into how to implement a bandpass crossover. Are you saying I can simply put a low pass on the tweeter and put another high pass crossover on that same tweeter anywhere in the circuit? This is also why I am having a hard time understanding why people are recommending learning basic electronics when this is actually not that basic
The tweeter didn't come with a low-pass crossover. It likely came with a capacitor which is a high-pass crossover.
In higher order crossovers (2nd order with an inductor), the inductor is connected across the tweeter, not in series with it. An inductor in series with the tweeter would pass low frequencies to the tweeter. The inductor connected across the tweeter, bypasses low frequencies that make it through the capacitors around the tweeter.
In higher order crossovers (2nd order with an inductor), the inductor is connected across the tweeter, not in series with it. An inductor in series with the tweeter would pass low frequencies to the tweeter. The inductor connected across the tweeter, bypasses low frequencies that make it through the capacitors around the tweeter.
I agree, not that basic.
But follow Perry Babin, in the tweeter must to put a high pass only, not a band pass.
The band pass generally is for a midrange speaker, and not always.
I never seen a band pass filter in the tweeter and i think not exist it.
So the low pass also not is for tweeter (see the link that i posted).
The frequency cut at 2800 Hz can be good, but we can't to know it withouth speaker's model and some test.
It's the motive that i said maybe you can run with a simple cap for tweeter only.
Or 12 dB/oct high pass (C in series and L parallel).
Or 12 dB/oct high pass (C in series and L parallel) for tw and 6 dB/oct low pass (L in series only) for mw.
Or 12 dB/oct high pass (C in series and L parallel) for tw and 12 dB/oct low pass (L in series and C parallel) for mw.
So again, it depend from speakers.
thank you, this is exactly what I was asking the whole time, yes I accidentally asked it backwards. I am not detail orientated, I look at the bigger picture first than narrow it down to specific details. So just to clarify yes there will already be a high pass crossover on the tweeter at 2800 hz, this crossover will be made or implemented by myself later, and I wanted to add an additional low pass crossover on it to limit it's maximum frequency to about 20k hz. I wasn't actually confused, it's just what my brain thinks and what my mouth or fingers type are not the same. my brain is faster than my ability to communicate orally or written.
Just one more question please: so for the layout of the circuit it goes from receiver > normal crossover high pass at 2800 hz > 0.05mH inductor > tweeter? so the 0.05mH inductor is the closest to the tweeter in the crcuit and the normal crossover is furthest away? how did you calculate the inductor you needed? the tweeters I'm still narrowing down are all over the place from 8, 6, or 4 ohms. so without some formula I don't know what that 0.05mH inductor is doing, but thank you. So far this is the only direct answer I've gotten so far on my original question
Just one more question please: so for the layout of the circuit it goes from receiver > normal crossover high pass at 2800 hz > 0.05mH inductor > tweeter? so the 0.05mH inductor is the closest to the tweeter in the crcuit and the normal crossover is furthest away? how did you calculate the inductor you needed? the tweeters I'm still narrowing down are all over the place from 8, 6, or 4 ohms. so without some formula I don't know what that 0.05mH inductor is doing, but thank you. So far this is the only direct answer I've gotten so far on my original question
sorry just so it's not ignored: the woofer also would have a set 2 filters as well, however for the tweeter as I've been trying to say is this:
tweeter: will play frequencies above 2800 hz but not past 20,000 hz
woofer: will not play anuything above 2800 hz and anytthing under 150 hz
and to further clarify 150 hz and 2800 hz and 20k hz are my starting numbers so formulas are what I am actually after because at the moment I still cannot figure out which is the best tweeter or 6.5" woofer/ midrange to get. I work 10-12 hours a day as a truck driver and it's physically brutal. I don't have enough energy for normal thinking so that must be why my communication is horrible here.
the speaker selection is nothing strange, none of us can listen to a speaker before we buy them so I'm just looking at the basic specs and the reviews. I pay extra attention to speakers who have reviews that have a lot of people saying it's exceptional, beyond expectations and I pay extra attention to reviews that mention it sounds poor despite a lot of people voting that comment down because they all say it's excellent.
and yes I understand that everyone is saying implementing these extra filters are a waste of time because it wastes power in the circuit and that the receiver / pre amp should be filtering it out before the speaker. I know there is a low pass on the receiver so I can use that for the woofer. I will look now for a high pass filter function. I was wanting this feature on the crossover originally because maybe this setup would be transferred to another car, maybe that other receiver doesn't have a low pass or high pass filter, etc. hopefully that clears things up. I do not mean to be confusing
just to reiterate again, my core question is how does a person combine 2 or more filters to the SAME speaker. I used the words cascading, layering, bandpass etc because it's plain English. I do not know the technical wording you guys normally use.
tweeter: will play frequencies above 2800 hz but not past 20,000 hz
woofer: will not play anuything above 2800 hz and anytthing under 150 hz
and to further clarify 150 hz and 2800 hz and 20k hz are my starting numbers so formulas are what I am actually after because at the moment I still cannot figure out which is the best tweeter or 6.5" woofer/ midrange to get. I work 10-12 hours a day as a truck driver and it's physically brutal. I don't have enough energy for normal thinking so that must be why my communication is horrible here.
the speaker selection is nothing strange, none of us can listen to a speaker before we buy them so I'm just looking at the basic specs and the reviews. I pay extra attention to speakers who have reviews that have a lot of people saying it's exceptional, beyond expectations and I pay extra attention to reviews that mention it sounds poor despite a lot of people voting that comment down because they all say it's excellent.
and yes I understand that everyone is saying implementing these extra filters are a waste of time because it wastes power in the circuit and that the receiver / pre amp should be filtering it out before the speaker. I know there is a low pass on the receiver so I can use that for the woofer. I will look now for a high pass filter function. I was wanting this feature on the crossover originally because maybe this setup would be transferred to another car, maybe that other receiver doesn't have a low pass or high pass filter, etc. hopefully that clears things up. I do not mean to be confusing
just to reiterate again, my core question is how does a person combine 2 or more filters to the SAME speaker. I used the words cascading, layering, bandpass etc because it's plain English. I do not know the technical wording you guys normally use.
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What are you blocking at 20kHz? The only thing up there is the oscillation of a defective amplifier and that's VERY rare.
Have you ever listened to pure test tones through a good amplifier and speakers?
Can you hear anything above about 16kHz?
What instruments produce anything above about 15kHz?
Have you ever listened to pure test tones through a good amplifier and speakers?
Can you hear anything above about 16kHz?
What instruments produce anything above about 15kHz?
I have found what I was looking for: a band pass filter, and it does work on the principal of combining 2 filters together. and they do use the same wording as I do: cascading. this is what I wanted to know all along:
https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/filter/filter_4.html
https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/filter/filter_4.html
For a bandpass filter-
If the pass band (i.e., 150Hz-2800Hz for the woofer) is a few octaves wide, and this is, then you can just cascade (connect in series) a High Pass and Low Pass, with values calculated separately.
If you aren't using a subwoofer along with these, you will probably find 150Hz High Pass to be too high for a pleasant full range experience. Maybe if you listen to a lot of Barry Manilow it would be OK...
Not a big deal, but the parts aren't cheap at these low frequencies if you want to make a change. I'd be thinking more like 40-60Hz.
The tweeter pass band you're talking about (2800Hz - 20kHz) is just over 3 octaves, and that would be better calculated as a bandpass filter rather than separately. The 12V calculator you linked earlier should do that. You can always build it both ways and see for yourself. Obviously, you have figured out that most of us consider it an unnecessary cost and complication, BUT-
We're just trying to help you get there expediently and without wasting money. This is supposed to be fun, so take what we say with a grain of salt. You're not going to blow up your Odyssey with a tweeter crossover that's less than great, but you might spend more than a few bucks and not get the results you want.
I've made most mistakes there are to make, sometimes on purpose to see just what happens. You gotta do it your way or it ain't quite DIY.
If the pass band (i.e., 150Hz-2800Hz for the woofer) is a few octaves wide, and this is, then you can just cascade (connect in series) a High Pass and Low Pass, with values calculated separately.
If you aren't using a subwoofer along with these, you will probably find 150Hz High Pass to be too high for a pleasant full range experience. Maybe if you listen to a lot of Barry Manilow it would be OK...
Not a big deal, but the parts aren't cheap at these low frequencies if you want to make a change. I'd be thinking more like 40-60Hz. The tweeter pass band you're talking about (2800Hz - 20kHz) is just over 3 octaves, and that would be better calculated as a bandpass filter rather than separately. The 12V calculator you linked earlier should do that. You can always build it both ways and see for yourself. Obviously, you have figured out that most of us consider it an unnecessary cost and complication, BUT-
We're just trying to help you get there expediently and without wasting money. This is supposed to be fun, so take what we say with a grain of salt. You're not going to blow up your Odyssey with a tweeter crossover that's less than great, but you might spend more than a few bucks and not get the results you want.
I've made most mistakes there are to make, sometimes on purpose to see just what happens. You gotta do it your way or it ain't quite DIY.
tsmith1315, thank you for all of those explanations. believe it or not that is exactly the answers I was looking for all along. the only reason I kept trying to find my own solutions was because people kept asking me what I wanted like 20 times even though I thought I clearly spelled out what I was looking for. I was explaining myself over again that's why I pointed out the bandpass filter.
No I actually won't be using 2 filters in series or even the bandpass filter. You guys already convinced me several days ago that setting a low cutoff with my receiver is the best way. Yeah I'm trying to keep the parts low and simple. I swear there's been some kind of miscommunication, I felt like I was speaking plain English but people here acted like I was speaking Klingon. I appreciate all the help. I have been listening. The only thing now is I'm having a hard time deciding on which speakers to get. It would be so much easier to just get premade components, but I don't want to take the easy way out. I've spent weeks looking at tweeters and woofers. If I stick to trying to get tweeters that fit the dash it limits my options, if I get the tweeters I really want I have to find a way to protect their domes and where and how to mount them.
also I don't listen to Barry Manilow
No I actually won't be using 2 filters in series or even the bandpass filter. You guys already convinced me several days ago that setting a low cutoff with my receiver is the best way. Yeah I'm trying to keep the parts low and simple. I swear there's been some kind of miscommunication, I felt like I was speaking plain English but people here acted like I was speaking Klingon. I appreciate all the help. I have been listening. The only thing now is I'm having a hard time deciding on which speakers to get. It would be so much easier to just get premade components, but I don't want to take the easy way out. I've spent weeks looking at tweeters and woofers. If I stick to trying to get tweeters that fit the dash it limits my options, if I get the tweeters I really want I have to find a way to protect their domes and where and how to mount them.
also I don't listen to Barry Manilow
For a bandpass filter-
If the pass band (i.e., 150Hz-2800Hz for the woofer) is a few octaves wide, and this is, then you can just cascade (connect in series) a High Pass and Low Pass, with values calculated separately.
If you aren't using a subwoofer along with these, you will probably find 150Hz High Pass to be too high for a pleasant full range experience. Maybe if you listen to a lot of Barry Manilow it would be OK...
The tweeter pass band you're talking about (2800Hz - 20kHz) is just over 3 octaves, and that would be better calculated as a bandpass filter rather than separately. The 12V calculator you linked earlier should do that. You can always build it both ways and see for yourself. Obviously, you have figured out that most of us consider it an unnecessary cost and complication, BUT-
We're just trying to help you get there expediently and without wasting money. This is supposed to be fun, so take what we say with a grain of salt. You're not going to blow up your Odyssey with a tweeter crossover that's less than great, but you might spend more than a few bucks and not get the results you want.
I've made most mistakes there are to make, sometimes on purpose to see just what happens. You gotta do it your way or it ain't quite DIY.
No it is crazy. I get that. I got it the first time someone explained it to me here. the miscommunication is that the bandpass filter or cascading series connected filter was the question I originally had. than someone said, that's not the best way, just do it with the receiver before the signal gets amplified. I already understood at that point, but than like 10 people kept asking me "what is it you want to do?" even though I had already explained it so I re-explained it again, and than the endless cycle of "what frequency are you trying to filter?" and "no that's wrong" etc, forever. I was simply re-explaining my original question with more details.
Yes but a low pass for tweeter is a non sense.
Why?
What's the real motive?
No one in the world make this.
Where i can read about this filter type?
Sorry eksine but i don't understand..
I think it's wrong before to try.
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