My configuration is the following:
Alpine X-Series 4ch AMP (X-A70F):
Rear line speakers: Alpine X-S65 (Coax):
Front line: Alpine X-S65C (Component):
Wired with pretty thick copper wire.
I've blown one of my tweeters the second day i got this setup running...
Gone to a "Pro" audio shop and they told me this amp is too powerful per channel for these speakers and i have played this too loud (even at 50% gain) and have blown them. It almost always start smelling like burning from speakers when i rush them up...
1. How is the power split between the component speaker system?
2. What power goes to tweeter and what to mids?
3. Why even after spending over 2000$ im not happy with the power of my vocals? If i run the amp at higher gain i get distortion - its just like a step better than my stock speakers... This for god sake is Alpine.. costing a fortune at 120W RMS PER CHANNEL. I've looked after many manufacturers this is one of the higest RMS available for vocals at 6.5" size.
4. If i want more power and clean sound i was advised to add another set of speakers... further 500-600$... Do you think i will get more power if I use another set of speakers to the same channels? They are 4Ohm so I must wire them in parallel so it will drop to 2Ohm and the amp could push 175W RMS at 2ohm... As it is now pretty powerful for these when i use series will it split the power to both speakers per channel meaning it will get 175W/2 which is lower than 120W/1 speaker or maybe im mistaking something..
5. If i upgrade my front line and put 2 mid + 2 tweet per channel would this do any difference if its just one speaker?
6. Why do Alpine matches these speakers and amps and i was able to blow them at 50% gain and in fact.. not that loud vocal music (im not deaf though
7. If i decide to switch to another brand what RMS should i be looking at per set of speakers?
Alpine X-Series 4ch AMP (X-A70F):
Rear line speakers: Alpine X-S65 (Coax):
Front line: Alpine X-S65C (Component):
Wired with pretty thick copper wire.
I've blown one of my tweeters the second day i got this setup running...
Gone to a "Pro" audio shop and they told me this amp is too powerful per channel for these speakers and i have played this too loud (even at 50% gain) and have blown them. It almost always start smelling like burning from speakers when i rush them up...
1. How is the power split between the component speaker system?
2. What power goes to tweeter and what to mids?
3. Why even after spending over 2000$ im not happy with the power of my vocals? If i run the amp at higher gain i get distortion - its just like a step better than my stock speakers... This for god sake is Alpine.. costing a fortune at 120W RMS PER CHANNEL. I've looked after many manufacturers this is one of the higest RMS available for vocals at 6.5" size.
4. If i want more power and clean sound i was advised to add another set of speakers... further 500-600$... Do you think i will get more power if I use another set of speakers to the same channels? They are 4Ohm so I must wire them in parallel so it will drop to 2Ohm and the amp could push 175W RMS at 2ohm... As it is now pretty powerful for these when i use series will it split the power to both speakers per channel meaning it will get 175W/2 which is lower than 120W/1 speaker or maybe im mistaking something..
5. If i upgrade my front line and put 2 mid + 2 tweet per channel would this do any difference if its just one speaker?
6. Why do Alpine matches these speakers and amps and i was able to blow them at 50% gain and in fact.. not that loud vocal music (im not deaf though
7. If i decide to switch to another brand what RMS should i be looking at per set of speakers?
There are many steps to achieve what you are looking for. Using coaxial setups will not be in the best of your interest (from what I am gathering from your post) as you loose control right out the gate of your sound quality.
You need to be able to control each stage, front, center, rear and sub individually.
You need to be able to see where and at what level, your signal is clipping.
DC kills tweeters faster than anything in the system.
For example, I used 2 Helix E400's (8 channels) 1 channel to a single tweeter x 4 (2 front 2 rear) and 2 channels to 2-8" mids center stage and the last 2 channels to my 2-6.5" front stage
You need to be able to control each stage, front, center, rear and sub individually.
You need to be able to see where and at what level, your signal is clipping.
DC kills tweeters faster than anything in the system.
For example, I used 2 Helix E400's (8 channels) 1 channel to a single tweeter x 4 (2 front 2 rear) and 2 channels to 2-8" mids center stage and the last 2 channels to my 2-6.5" front stage
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Who chose the system components?
I've seen a lot of systems that sounded very nice with cheap amplifiers and reasonably priced component speaker systems. I don't know what they have now, Kicker had some very nice sounding separates for a very reasonable price and they were very reliable. I'm sure that other mid-range manufacturers will have something as well. I've heard 6x9 systems that sounded nice but not just any 6x9 will sound good. They're definitely hit and miss.
If you need fancy features like time alignment, that can be had with reasonably priced head units.
I'm not sure where you are and in some markets, just a head unit and 4 average speakers installed is $2000.
If cost is an issue, you have to do a lot of research and listen to a lot of speakers to get what you want.
I've seen a lot of systems that sounded very nice with cheap amplifiers and reasonably priced component speaker systems. I don't know what they have now, Kicker had some very nice sounding separates for a very reasonable price and they were very reliable. I'm sure that other mid-range manufacturers will have something as well. I've heard 6x9 systems that sounded nice but not just any 6x9 will sound good. They're definitely hit and miss.
If you need fancy features like time alignment, that can be had with reasonably priced head units.
I'm not sure where you are and in some markets, just a head unit and 4 average speakers installed is $2000.
If cost is an issue, you have to do a lot of research and listen to a lot of speakers to get what you want.
Thank you for the generic answers guys but please if possible answer my questions. My head unit is a gem... Pioneer 80-PRS
Im in Europe. As i've spent 3k total with installation and do not get what i need (as a loudness) this is what the concern is about. I need LOUD music. The quality is PERFECT with the alpine. I only need more loudness and the main question is if i add another pair of these pricey Alpines would i get the loudness i need or it will be the same (even worse).
Im in Europe. As i've spent 3k total with installation and do not get what i need (as a loudness) this is what the concern is about. I need LOUD music. The quality is PERFECT with the alpine. I only need more loudness and the main question is if i add another pair of these pricey Alpines would i get the loudness i need or it will be the same (even worse).
Loudness is very subjective, and none of us can make a good assessment of exactly what you're after without listening to what you have, what you consider loud, and what it is you feel like you're missing. You've invested a lot of money and we don't want to steer you in the wrong direction.
At the least, more info is needed like what do these 6½" speakers have to keep up with, what are the crossover points, what EQ/boost settings, etc.
120W is a *lot* of power for a 6½" speaker. With no further info to go on, I would agree with the "Pro" audio shop.
Answers to your Q's:
1) The tweeter crossover allows full power to the tweeter, but only at high frequencies. The 6½" doesn't have a crossover on the top end, but it's impedance begins to rise upwards significantly beyond several hundred Hz. The amp provides full voltage for the mid, but the impedance is high enough in the high frequency range to keep much power from getting there.
2) Both drivers get full power in their respective frequency ranges.
3) Power ratings for car speakers are fairy tales to be used as a sales tool. If they told you the realistic ratings for their speakers, you wouldn't buy them.
4) An additional set of identical speakers would share the total power 50/50. If the amp was producing 175W, that would be 87.5W per speaker compared to 120W per speaker right now. Your cone area would be twice as large with two speakers, and therefore would move more air for a given amplifier output than single pair would.
5) see #4
6) Don't let any salesperson in car audio tell you you need to match a speaker with the same brand amplifier. Another fairy tale, and it's been around a long time.
7) See answer #3. If you decide to change brands, think bigger speakers, and more efficient. A real 3-way may be even be best, (like 8", 4", & TW) so the tweeter crossover frequency can be moved up a bit for safety. Even then, keep in mind that 120W is a lot of power.
At the least, more info is needed like what do these 6½" speakers have to keep up with, what are the crossover points, what EQ/boost settings, etc.
120W is a *lot* of power for a 6½" speaker. With no further info to go on, I would agree with the "Pro" audio shop.
Answers to your Q's:
1) The tweeter crossover allows full power to the tweeter, but only at high frequencies. The 6½" doesn't have a crossover on the top end, but it's impedance begins to rise upwards significantly beyond several hundred Hz. The amp provides full voltage for the mid, but the impedance is high enough in the high frequency range to keep much power from getting there.
2) Both drivers get full power in their respective frequency ranges.
3) Power ratings for car speakers are fairy tales to be used as a sales tool. If they told you the realistic ratings for their speakers, you wouldn't buy them.
4) An additional set of identical speakers would share the total power 50/50. If the amp was producing 175W, that would be 87.5W per speaker compared to 120W per speaker right now. Your cone area would be twice as large with two speakers, and therefore would move more air for a given amplifier output than single pair would.
5) see #4
6) Don't let any salesperson in car audio tell you you need to match a speaker with the same brand amplifier. Another fairy tale, and it's been around a long time.
7) See answer #3. If you decide to change brands, think bigger speakers, and more efficient. A real 3-way may be even be best, (like 8", 4", & TW) so the tweeter crossover frequency can be moved up a bit for safety. Even then, keep in mind that 120W is a lot of power.
Thank you tsmith1315.
So what are my options? To switch the brand? How can i measure what RMS is the amp really putting to the speakers? If we suppose that the speaker get distorted at 90W (the amp gain is at 50%), that means if i put 2 pairs in parallel of them and go to 80-90% gain will give me the double the power - 160W RMS/80W (no distortion, no burning smell, no failing speakers) and the same perfect sound quality from Alpine?
The car is W463 G-Wagon. I have only space to put 6.5" in front and rear doors and 1-1.25" tweeter over the vent grille. Going for 3-way speakers i have no place to put them, and do not wish to cut, make custom ***** as the car aint a cheap one...
Maybe i'd better use my current rear coax speakers in parallel with front as front-line as they're both alpines and then look for something else to max-out the rear line? I think there i could put bigger ones in external enclosures in the trunk.
So what are my options? To switch the brand? How can i measure what RMS is the amp really putting to the speakers? If we suppose that the speaker get distorted at 90W (the amp gain is at 50%), that means if i put 2 pairs in parallel of them and go to 80-90% gain will give me the double the power - 160W RMS/80W (no distortion, no burning smell, no failing speakers) and the same perfect sound quality from Alpine?
The car is W463 G-Wagon. I have only space to put 6.5" in front and rear doors and 1-1.25" tweeter over the vent grille. Going for 3-way speakers i have no place to put them, and do not wish to cut, make custom ***** as the car aint a cheap one...
Maybe i'd better use my current rear coax speakers in parallel with front as front-line as they're both alpines and then look for something else to max-out the rear line? I think there i could put bigger ones in external enclosures in the trunk.
Answers interspersed with your original questions.
1. How is the power split between the component speaker system?
Power is split by use of a crossover, though 'power split' is a bit of a misnomer if you ask me. The crossover merely makes sure that each speaker connected to it receives only the frequencies they are good at reproducing, so power isn't wasted trying to makes sounds they aren't efficient at. That's why you don't feed bass to a tweeter, it'll pop.
2. What power goes to tweeter and what to mids?
What does your component manual say about the crossover? It should say what frequencies are sent to which driver, or more accurately, at what point the crossover rolls off and how fast for each driver.
3. Why even after spending over 2000$ I'm not happy with the power of my vocals? If i run the amp at higher gain i get distortion - its just like a step better than my stock speakers... This for god sake is Alpine.. costing a fortune at 120W RMS PER CHANNEL. I've looked after many manufacturers this is one of the higest RMS available for vocals at 6.5" size.
Either something is miswired, or the amplifiers aren't configured correctly.
For example if the wiring isn't correct between the tweeter and crossover you could be feeding it with full range audio without knowing it, in which case it would blow out very quickly. Likewise if the gains are set improperly on the amplifiers it's possible either the head unit or the amplifier or both is going into clipping, which is very bad for tweeters. Clipping sends DC into audio drivers, which is just a fancy way to say you're basically connecting it directly to a battery and hoping it lives. It also sounds pretty horrid.
4. If i want more power and clean sound i was advised to add another set of speakers... further 500-600$... Do you think i will get more power if I use another set of speakers to the same channels? They are 4Ohm so I must wire them in parallel so it will drop to 2Ohm and the amp could push 175W RMS at 2ohm... As it is now pretty powerful for these when i use series will it split the power to both speakers per channel meaning it will get 175W/2 which is lower than 120W/1 speaker or maybe im mistaking something..
With respect, if 460w of full range audio isn't enough you've either already suffered hearing loss or you're about to. Even 400w is more than enough to produce nearly concert level audio with decent drivers, provided the system is set up correctly and isn't clipping at high levels. So whoever told you to buy more speakers either doesn't know what they're talking about, or they want more of your money. Either way, something is keeping the system from performing correctly and you need to find out why.
5. If i upgrade my front line and put 2 mid + 2 tweet per channel would this do any difference if its just one speaker?
I doubt it. The system isn't working correctly, you should be holding your hands over your hears from the level of sound already.
6. Why do Alpine matches these speakers and amps and i was able to blow them at 50% gain and in fact.. not that loud vocal music (im not deaf though
Because something isn't set up/wired correctly that's why.
7. If i decide to switch to another brand what RMS should i be looking at per set of speakers?
If you do change, find a different installer. Something isn't right, and you've spent good money to hear good music. I personally vote for rooting out the problems in your existing system, it'll be cheaper in the long run.
I agree with Perry: even factory drivers can make surprisingly good sound if you simply feed them a bit more power and don't clip them, the reality is that this is a car though so it'll never be quite as good as a well designed home audio system. YMMV.
HAVING SAID ALL OF THAT... It's possible you're simply asking too much from your tweeters, and I have seen systems before that had far too much high frequency response as compared to the midrange drivers they were paired with. I have a set of MB Quart crossovers in my garage with different attenuation taps for the tweeters, which is nice because you can dial back the high frequencies a tad to help avoid blowing your tweeters at high volume levels.
1. How is the power split between the component speaker system?
Power is split by use of a crossover, though 'power split' is a bit of a misnomer if you ask me. The crossover merely makes sure that each speaker connected to it receives only the frequencies they are good at reproducing, so power isn't wasted trying to makes sounds they aren't efficient at. That's why you don't feed bass to a tweeter, it'll pop.
2. What power goes to tweeter and what to mids?
What does your component manual say about the crossover? It should say what frequencies are sent to which driver, or more accurately, at what point the crossover rolls off and how fast for each driver.
3. Why even after spending over 2000$ I'm not happy with the power of my vocals? If i run the amp at higher gain i get distortion - its just like a step better than my stock speakers... This for god sake is Alpine.. costing a fortune at 120W RMS PER CHANNEL. I've looked after many manufacturers this is one of the higest RMS available for vocals at 6.5" size.
Either something is miswired, or the amplifiers aren't configured correctly.
For example if the wiring isn't correct between the tweeter and crossover you could be feeding it with full range audio without knowing it, in which case it would blow out very quickly. Likewise if the gains are set improperly on the amplifiers it's possible either the head unit or the amplifier or both is going into clipping, which is very bad for tweeters. Clipping sends DC into audio drivers, which is just a fancy way to say you're basically connecting it directly to a battery and hoping it lives. It also sounds pretty horrid.
4. If i want more power and clean sound i was advised to add another set of speakers... further 500-600$... Do you think i will get more power if I use another set of speakers to the same channels? They are 4Ohm so I must wire them in parallel so it will drop to 2Ohm and the amp could push 175W RMS at 2ohm... As it is now pretty powerful for these when i use series will it split the power to both speakers per channel meaning it will get 175W/2 which is lower than 120W/1 speaker or maybe im mistaking something..
With respect, if 460w of full range audio isn't enough you've either already suffered hearing loss or you're about to. Even 400w is more than enough to produce nearly concert level audio with decent drivers, provided the system is set up correctly and isn't clipping at high levels. So whoever told you to buy more speakers either doesn't know what they're talking about, or they want more of your money. Either way, something is keeping the system from performing correctly and you need to find out why.
5. If i upgrade my front line and put 2 mid + 2 tweet per channel would this do any difference if its just one speaker?
I doubt it. The system isn't working correctly, you should be holding your hands over your hears from the level of sound already.
6. Why do Alpine matches these speakers and amps and i was able to blow them at 50% gain and in fact.. not that loud vocal music (im not deaf though
Because something isn't set up/wired correctly that's why.
7. If i decide to switch to another brand what RMS should i be looking at per set of speakers?
If you do change, find a different installer. Something isn't right, and you've spent good money to hear good music. I personally vote for rooting out the problems in your existing system, it'll be cheaper in the long run.
I agree with Perry: even factory drivers can make surprisingly good sound if you simply feed them a bit more power and don't clip them, the reality is that this is a car though so it'll never be quite as good as a well designed home audio system. YMMV.
HAVING SAID ALL OF THAT... It's possible you're simply asking too much from your tweeters, and I have seen systems before that had far too much high frequency response as compared to the midrange drivers they were paired with. I have a set of MB Quart crossovers in my garage with different attenuation taps for the tweeters, which is nice because you can dial back the high frequencies a tad to help avoid blowing your tweeters at high volume levels.
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I've decided again to splash the cash... i hope for the last time.
Bought 2 pieces of HERTZ MPK 165.3 PRO 2-Way Compo (8 speakers totals - 4 tweeters and 4 mids).
It is noted for 110W RMS. I'll be putting them in parallel to get 2 Ohm and i'll be able to provide up to 175W RMS per channel. Taking a note of what i've read in this topic and other places i will send no more than 87.5W per set (if they're split even 50/50). That way im far from pushing them to limits (110W) and i will hope to get a pure 175W PER CHANNEL - meaning i will total at MAX to 350W RMS at the back line only (from one amp).
Front ones i will connect parallel too my existing Alpine noted 110W for coax and 120W for components that im currently with and will power them with the same amount 87.5W which. The speaker wires are very thick 10AWG OFC and its pretty much sufficient.
Changing to 2Ohm and adding 8 more speakers its impossible that i will get worse sound. Maybe im sending clipping signal because simply the 6.5" arent enough as a size.
Im using 12" Subwoofer 600W RMS through different amp and its so damn good that recently it has broken its own enclosure - splitted it into half lol!!! Now in process of getting new bigger and better one.
I know the quality of hertz isnt as alpine but it will get the POWER i need from the back, the clean sound from alpines i will get from the front. im using the stock crossovers which i think are best...
Im really looking forward to make these 700W RMS Vocal enough lol. By the way im not having hearing problems - im just a audiophile.
Will help if someone else suggest something else.
Bought 2 pieces of HERTZ MPK 165.3 PRO 2-Way Compo (8 speakers totals - 4 tweeters and 4 mids).
It is noted for 110W RMS. I'll be putting them in parallel to get 2 Ohm and i'll be able to provide up to 175W RMS per channel. Taking a note of what i've read in this topic and other places i will send no more than 87.5W per set (if they're split even 50/50). That way im far from pushing them to limits (110W) and i will hope to get a pure 175W PER CHANNEL - meaning i will total at MAX to 350W RMS at the back line only (from one amp).
Front ones i will connect parallel too my existing Alpine noted 110W for coax and 120W for components that im currently with and will power them with the same amount 87.5W which. The speaker wires are very thick 10AWG OFC and its pretty much sufficient.
Changing to 2Ohm and adding 8 more speakers its impossible that i will get worse sound. Maybe im sending clipping signal because simply the 6.5" arent enough as a size.
Im using 12" Subwoofer 600W RMS through different amp and its so damn good that recently it has broken its own enclosure - splitted it into half lol!!! Now in process of getting new bigger and better one.
I know the quality of hertz isnt as alpine but it will get the POWER i need from the back, the clean sound from alpines i will get from the front. im using the stock crossovers which i think are best...
Im really looking forward to make these 700W RMS Vocal enough lol. By the way im not having hearing problems - im just a audiophile.
Will help if someone else suggest something else.
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I concur with the poster above, I think there is something very wrong with the way the existing system has been installed if you don’t think it’s loud enough.
I say this especially as you say that a 600w 12” sub is plenty loud enough.
For comparison I run vintage MB Quart 4” components from a 50 watt Soundstream amp,, 8” focal midbasses from a 80 watt Sony amp and JL 13w7 on anywhere from 500 to 1500 watts in my BMW and the bass struggles to keep up with the front stage...
To be happy with a 12” and 600 watts of bass but to find 4x6.5 (and good quality, sensitive 6.5s like you have at that) is very strange.
Have you checked alll the speakers are in phase?
I say this especially as you say that a 600w 12” sub is plenty loud enough.
For comparison I run vintage MB Quart 4” components from a 50 watt Soundstream amp,, 8” focal midbasses from a 80 watt Sony amp and JL 13w7 on anywhere from 500 to 1500 watts in my BMW and the bass struggles to keep up with the front stage...
To be happy with a 12” and 600 watts of bass but to find 4x6.5 (and good quality, sensitive 6.5s like you have at that) is very strange.
Have you checked alll the speakers are in phase?
Please answer the Million Dollar Question before we can help You further.
What are You after ? Sound Contest ? You'll need at least four big subs for big bass, and bass is what defines loud nowadays. You are aware that car speakers have poor efficiency (dB) compared to PA speakers ? Say 95 dB compared to 98 or 100 dB. 6 dB is twice as loud.
What are You after ? Sound Contest ? You'll need at least four big subs for big bass, and bass is what defines loud nowadays. You are aware that car speakers have poor efficiency (dB) compared to PA speakers ? Say 95 dB compared to 98 or 100 dB. 6 dB is twice as loud.
Seems to be im not getting the most of the power from the amp because of distortion. As i've already said currently my gain is 40-50%. Over this i get distortion, clipping etc. Soon I'll finish setting up the rear line of speakers and will measure the results. There is a high possibility that there is a problem with my rear coax - in fact i feel them very weak compared to components while there is just 10W difference. It could be a problem therefore will need to check all pieces 1 by 1 to make sure its not that.
I think about electroacustics not is mathematic.
Not is exactly double power to half impedance, it depend from amp's design, THD ecc..
With less impedance the same amp produce more distortion, less S/N, less damping factor and input sensivity can need to adjust in less for example.
Every amp has his conduct and his history.
I think you like SPL mode, an audiophile man tipically runs with low-medium power, but everyone makes his choise.
Not is exactly double power to half impedance, it depend from amp's design, THD ecc..
With less impedance the same amp produce more distortion, less S/N, less damping factor and input sensivity can need to adjust in less for example.
Every amp has his conduct and his history.
I think you like SPL mode, an audiophile man tipically runs with low-medium power, but everyone makes his choise.
In that case how do you think you blew the tweeters the first time around, did you crank it past distortion that time to test?
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