I've been doing a lot of research in regards to the possibility of upgrading the op-amps in some of the old Orion amps. What I've found is a lot of people making claims of this or that op-amp is the "best" based upon the data sheets and/or those claiming they can hear a significant change for the better in sound quality. Problem being that most all are completely disregarding the circuitry that the op-amp is to be used in and if that "best" op-amp is even compatible with that particular circuitry. Although there were a few people who actually seemed to know what they where talking about. So... I'm hoping they may see this and offer their advise.
The circuitry in the old Orion amps is basically the same from model to model and all though out all the years of those made in the USA. The op-amps Orion used where the NE5532N or 4562D, NE5534N and LM837N. Any suggestions for upgrades for those op-amps? Especially for the 4562D and the LM837N.
The circuitry in the old Orion amps is basically the same from model to model and all though out all the years of those made in the USA. The op-amps Orion used where the NE5532N or 4562D, NE5534N and LM837N. Any suggestions for upgrades for those op-amps? Especially for the 4562D and the LM837N.
Easy, buy the most expensive Burr Brown op-amps that are the same model number.....sit back and enjoy the sound......the same sound you had in the first place because a double blind testing of op-amps sound results in hardly anyone being able to tell the difference.
But I know there will be someone come back and tell me I am wrong.......they know how much better theirs sounds now.....blah blah blah......I love those people in a double blind sound test, and to see their faces when they choose the cheapest op-amp and proclaim that is the best one
But I know there will be someone come back and tell me I am wrong.......they know how much better theirs sounds now.....blah blah blah......I love those people in a double blind sound test, and to see their faces when they choose the cheapest op-amp and proclaim that is the best one
That's more or less what I was thinking. There is more to the circuitry that effects sound quality than just the op-amp...I wondered how much of an effect, if any, changing only the op-amp would provide.
I have a couple of brand new unpopulated boards. Was thinking of putting one together using upgraded parts wherever possible to see if there is any sound difference between it and a stock one.
I have a couple of brand new unpopulated boards. Was thinking of putting one together using upgraded parts wherever possible to see if there is any sound difference between it and a stock one.
I agree. The noise floor is virtually the only gain you can get and isn't generally worth the effort. There's always the risk that the replacement will have some sort of odd problem associated with the circuit, the board layout or proximity to other components (processors, transformer...).
Soooo many of the gains that DIYers hear from 'upgrades' they make to audio equipment is 100% psychological.
Soooo many of the gains that DIYers hear from 'upgrades' they make to audio equipment is 100% psychological.
The gold plated versions of the GX's claimed better specs than the standard versions. I don't think they used fancier brand components, but IIRC, hand-selected values for accuracy, and tech time before they were released as guaranteed to meet those specs.
I'd give that treatment more credit than upgrading brands. Do y'all remember exactly what the differences in the 14k amps were?
I'd give that treatment more credit than upgrading brands. Do y'all remember exactly what the differences in the 14k amps were?
The only one components that you can to try changing are the electrolytics caps in the inputs.
In this case you can understand some difference between electrolytics, MKT, MKP or some type else.
I don't tell that change is a really improvement, in this case the best can be just like the electrolytic, because we cannot never forget the original project's importance.
Maybe some test with Black Gate or Silmic (or others "audio-grade") also, in the inputs electrolytics caps.
I think if an amp sounds good and balanced, it's many difficult to improve his sound it but easy to change it only.
I'm agree with previous comments.
In this case you can understand some difference between electrolytics, MKT, MKP or some type else.
I don't tell that change is a really improvement, in this case the best can be just like the electrolytic, because we cannot never forget the original project's importance.
Maybe some test with Black Gate or Silmic (or others "audio-grade") also, in the inputs electrolytics caps.
I think if an amp sounds good and balanced, it's many difficult to improve his sound it but easy to change it only.
I'm agree with previous comments.
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To really make a difference that you will appreciate, it would likely take the replacement of many parts, and if you get any of them wrong, you’ll be in worse shape than before.
I found that the feedback capacitors made the most difference in another car amp, out of many parts, followed by the power supply caps.
I found that the feedback capacitors made the most difference in another car amp, out of many parts, followed by the power supply caps.
For those reading this tread, please do NOT start modifying your amps to make them sound better. Virtually nothing will make a difference. The overall circuitry is the deciding factor.
I'm sorry, the rail caps are the least likely to make a difference unless the originals are very seriously out of tolerance (defective) and that's rare.
There are instances where an amp will have leaky capacitors and those need to be replaced but the VAST majority of caps are replaced for no legitimate reason (it's easy and the owners feel like they're doing something).
This forum is one of the few car audio forums that has provided reliable information. I'd hate to see that change by having threads on 'upgrades' that don't actually do anything.
I'm sorry, the rail caps are the least likely to make a difference unless the originals are very seriously out of tolerance (defective) and that's rare.
There are instances where an amp will have leaky capacitors and those need to be replaced but the VAST majority of caps are replaced for no legitimate reason (it's easy and the owners feel like they're doing something).
This forum is one of the few car audio forums that has provided reliable information. I'd hate to see that change by having threads on 'upgrades' that don't actually do anything.
That’s very true that the vast majority of car amps won’t achieve much of anything by using parts with different specifications. The risk of trashing something just isn’t worth the risk I would say for most, especially considering the typical car listening environment.
I’d have to say also that this forum, especially the car audio portion is hands down the rare exception for reliable information out there on maintaining functional amplifiers.
As for my projects and hearing, I’ll just keep that to myself.
I’d have to say also that this forum, especially the car audio portion is hands down the rare exception for reliable information out there on maintaining functional amplifiers.
As for my projects and hearing, I’ll just keep that to myself.
Agreed, and my post was in no way suggesting that someone should open their amp and start substituting parts.
The point was that I think Orion's upgraded, cost-no-object versions did *not* use boutique components. Instead, they invested more *time and attention* in building those models with the same or similar parts. Someone here should remember what marketing said about them, or maybe I can dig it up somewhere.
And IMHO, other parts of your system, like speaker installation, how you get components to work together, installation integrity, and tuning can easily render minor amplifier differences inaudible.
No offense to you Phase, you've been reliable here for a long time. It is difficult to have a car audio forum taken seriously.
The point was that I think Orion's upgraded, cost-no-object versions did *not* use boutique components. Instead, they invested more *time and attention* in building those models with the same or similar parts. Someone here should remember what marketing said about them, or maybe I can dig it up somewhere.
And IMHO, other parts of your system, like speaker installation, how you get components to work together, installation integrity, and tuning can easily render minor amplifier differences inaudible.
No offense to you Phase, you've been reliable here for a long time. It is difficult to have a car audio forum taken seriously.
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My experience has been that the biggest noticeable change in sound quality you can make is to choose high quality source material. If you are listening to music that has been equalized, compressed, and autotuned to perfection then you probably don't know what your system is capable of.
To be clear, I am not referring to the current fad of high bitrate/bit depth. Ordinary 44.1 ksps / 16 bit CD is capable of very impressive performance.
This assumes you got all the basics right - wiring, power source, gains, crossover settings, etc...
To be clear, I am not referring to the current fad of high bitrate/bit depth. Ordinary 44.1 ksps / 16 bit CD is capable of very impressive performance.
This assumes you got all the basics right - wiring, power source, gains, crossover settings, etc...
As several have mentioned without a doubt there are other areas of a sound system in which the sound quality of the system can be vastly improved. It was also mentioned that the engineers who designed these amps knew what they were doing and did in fact chose excellent op-amps. I wholeheartedly agree with it all. Oh, and Phase, I'm with you on those rare old school amps need to be preserved and not experimented upon!
Setting all those things aside...I started this thread on the particular subject of op-amps because I have a unique opportunity at hand. As I mentioned, I recently acquired a few brand new Orion Xtreme 500.4 boards. The only components installed in these boards are the resistors, nothing else.
To explain further...my thoughts are... if the Orion engineers were to assemble those boards today with the components available now, what would they choose? With so many of us sharing our knowledge and experience...myself included and having repaired and restored many Orion amps...again with that shared knowledge coming into play having learned which are the best new components to replace the original obsolete and unavailable components... I believe I know exactly what they would choose as far as capacitors, PS FET's, output transistors, etc... goes. Which is brought me to the thought of what op-amps would they then choose? Would they stick with the originals...like the NE5532 or would they choose something like the OPA2134... would they choose NE5534 or OPA134, etc...? If they were to choose something other than the originals what would they then choose to use instead of LM837N?
Setting all those things aside...I started this thread on the particular subject of op-amps because I have a unique opportunity at hand. As I mentioned, I recently acquired a few brand new Orion Xtreme 500.4 boards. The only components installed in these boards are the resistors, nothing else.
To explain further...my thoughts are... if the Orion engineers were to assemble those boards today with the components available now, what would they choose? With so many of us sharing our knowledge and experience...myself included and having repaired and restored many Orion amps...again with that shared knowledge coming into play having learned which are the best new components to replace the original obsolete and unavailable components... I believe I know exactly what they would choose as far as capacitors, PS FET's, output transistors, etc... goes. Which is brought me to the thought of what op-amps would they then choose? Would they stick with the originals...like the NE5532 or would they choose something like the OPA2134... would they choose NE5534 or OPA134, etc...? If they were to choose something other than the originals what would they then choose to use instead of LM837N?
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