It provides an incentive for me to setup my system so it does not need subs like that...LOL
It is a good question, I'd think mostly to make a sub work right at high excursion and also to make it durable. For my use I've never seen the need to use an expensive sub, I can get low and loud as I need without. But suppose if I bought my four 12s new they would have cost close to that. I like to run IB, so high power subs don't give me much return.
It is a good question, I'd think mostly to make a sub work right at high excursion and also to make it durable. For my use I've never seen the need to use an expensive sub, I can get low and loud as I need without. But suppose if I bought my four 12s new they would have cost close to that. I like to run IB, so high power subs don't give me much return.
Hard to say. You can scour audio websites and see what the SQ guys like (for SQ) and look up tests on subs to get an idea. Problem is neither price or name can ensure quality, though it is more likely. I've had nice systems with pyramid subs and thinking of doing it again just for fun. They do wear out faster, as hard as I beat them I could not complain though. I like companies like mach5; they seem to make a good sub for reasonable price without the flash, but its not top of the line if you want that. After running expensive stuff long ago I find it more of a challenge to try cheaper stuff and get it to work, for some things would not do that (like for a HU but speakers more likely and subs most likely unless I have install that requires something special).tsmith1315 said:
TNT said:
LOL!!! Good one!!!
are you looking for sound quality or SPL? that is the first place to start. The car, enclosure, amp power and tuning, cables and installation all play a big role in this equation. I can take an old radio shack or jensen sub and make it sound great on a budget with the right setup......
at the same time it is easy to by a $400 sub and put it in a bad pre-fab ported box with the wrong dimensions and power it with a bad amp and tune it wrong with the 18db's of bass boost all the way up along with the gain and sub x-over maxed out all tapped off of a stock radio with a cheap line-out converter.. Hint, it will be loud but sound like crappp and the cheap sub set up correctly will sound way better.
so unless your competing or have plenty of money to spend don't spend $400 on a sub. invest in a good enclosure and proper installation/tuning along with a decent sub at a decent price and you will be happy.
...its all in the spider,voice coil, cone combinations.
baskets, mags, steel,....are all the same for 90% of the subs out there.
ridges in the spider should be tall for good tight rebound, cones shoud be stiff for tight bass.
the majority of 3" voice coils have a 75.5 -76.5mm ID...winding heights vary from 35, 40, 50mm.
aluminium formers are louder than kapton, and have better heat transfer from coil to cone.
the longer the coil the lower it goes, but the shorter coils are louder because theres more windings in the gap.
pick a sub based on your power.
baskets, mags, steel,....are all the same for 90% of the subs out there.
ridges in the spider should be tall for good tight rebound, cones shoud be stiff for tight bass.
the majority of 3" voice coils have a 75.5 -76.5mm ID...winding heights vary from 35, 40, 50mm.
aluminium formers are louder than kapton, and have better heat transfer from coil to cone.
the longer the coil the lower it goes, but the shorter coils are louder because theres more windings in the gap.
pick a sub based on your power.
Excursion, power handling, and efficiency. Efficiency means keeping as much voice coil in the gap as possible, more or less, while maximum excursion generally means having a lot of coil outside the gap. Increasing the magnet strength and/or gap length help but means more expensive magnets and structure. Power handling means making it mechanically more rugged, maybe dual spiders to really keep things under control, and keeping the voice coil cool. Larger diameter coils help distribute power over more coil area, plus allow more area for heat to radiate from the coil to the gap structure. Vented gaps are good too. Vented pole pieces allow the woofer motion to pump air around the gap, but that's not an expensive feature to include.
what makes a sub worth $400
Great question! There are several different awnsers to this and most of them are right. where do we start?
Let's start with the suspension, there are subs, high excursion subs, and ultra high excursion subs. The difference between these are usually found in the spider and surround. Entry level subs use a smaller spider & smaller surround. High excursion subs usually use a (fatboy) surround and between 6" & 9" spider often with tinsel leads woven into the spider, and sometimes a progressive roll spider. Ultra high excursion subs most commonly use a high roll surround and between a 9" and 11" spider with woven leads.
Then there's baskets, only being 2 types cast & stamped, entry level subs are usually on a stamped basket, and performance drivers use the cast frame to support the heavy motor structure and allow for maximum cone travel.
Now for the big differences- motor/coil assembly. You can usually tell what kind of product you are buying from the magnet alone. You know you are buying a sub that IS worth 400 beans if it has a neodymium motor. Neo motors are not very popular however due the expense. Large strontium mags are much more cost effective, and because of that more common.
Coil windings are also a big part in quality of a sub. Cheaper or lower level drivers use anywhere from 1" to 2.5" coils often on very cheap & flimsy kapton formers, whereas proformance drivers use 3" to 4" coils on alum. formers, which are not as flexible as kapton and also help to disperse heat from the windings. Many of the ultra excursion drivers use a flat wound coil so that when it heats up it is able th expand without scraping the gap or "freezing up".
Then we get into XBL2 and LMS technoligies. These are only found in the highest quality subs money can buy, Adire has the patent on xbl2 and TC sounds controls LMS, they are both about the same really. The idea behind these is to keep the cone & coil linear at maximum excursion by winding the coils with a little more winding at the top and bottom and also a slight change in the way the gap is machined, again leaving a little more at the top and bottom to prevent shifting of the coil in the gap during maximum excursion.
OH yeah and in my experience the sensitivity rating( 1w@1m) is for the birds! you can take an entry level sub with a sensitivity rating in the mid 90's and put it up against an ultra high excursion sub with a rating un the mid 80's and the high excursion sub will create more SPL simply because it moves more creating more air pressure which in turn is SPL.
Great question! There are several different awnsers to this and most of them are right. where do we start?
Let's start with the suspension, there are subs, high excursion subs, and ultra high excursion subs. The difference between these are usually found in the spider and surround. Entry level subs use a smaller spider & smaller surround. High excursion subs usually use a (fatboy) surround and between 6" & 9" spider often with tinsel leads woven into the spider, and sometimes a progressive roll spider. Ultra high excursion subs most commonly use a high roll surround and between a 9" and 11" spider with woven leads.
Then there's baskets, only being 2 types cast & stamped, entry level subs are usually on a stamped basket, and performance drivers use the cast frame to support the heavy motor structure and allow for maximum cone travel.
Now for the big differences- motor/coil assembly. You can usually tell what kind of product you are buying from the magnet alone. You know you are buying a sub that IS worth 400 beans if it has a neodymium motor. Neo motors are not very popular however due the expense. Large strontium mags are much more cost effective, and because of that more common.
Coil windings are also a big part in quality of a sub. Cheaper or lower level drivers use anywhere from 1" to 2.5" coils often on very cheap & flimsy kapton formers, whereas proformance drivers use 3" to 4" coils on alum. formers, which are not as flexible as kapton and also help to disperse heat from the windings. Many of the ultra excursion drivers use a flat wound coil so that when it heats up it is able th expand without scraping the gap or "freezing up".
Then we get into XBL2 and LMS technoligies. These are only found in the highest quality subs money can buy, Adire has the patent on xbl2 and TC sounds controls LMS, they are both about the same really. The idea behind these is to keep the cone & coil linear at maximum excursion by winding the coils with a little more winding at the top and bottom and also a slight change in the way the gap is machined, again leaving a little more at the top and bottom to prevent shifting of the coil in the gap during maximum excursion.
OH yeah and in my experience the sensitivity rating( 1w@1m) is for the birds! you can take an entry level sub with a sensitivity rating in the mid 90's and put it up against an ultra high excursion sub with a rating un the mid 80's and the high excursion sub will create more SPL simply because it moves more creating more air pressure which in turn is SPL.
tsmith1315 said:
There are companies who still make Adire woofers, they baught up the back stock parts when Adire closed the doors.
The efficiency testing I did was a comparison between Kicker & TC Sounds. A single coil comp(brand new) vs a TC9+.
The kicker is 94dB@1w1m & the TC9 is 86@1w1m using the same amplifier and installing subs in the same enclosure. I also tested between an Audiobahn aw1571t and an Adire Brahma with similar results.
However I did another test between a Cerwin Vega stroker(original)
and an Orion HCCA both were rated at 97dB@1w1m and the stroker was about 4dB louder with a fraction of the excursion!
In my experience efficiency is like amplifier power ratings... a lot of companies lie, or bump it up to make it seem like a better product than it really is. Mainly the companies who have China make their woofers, which is almost everyone now unfortunately!
TravisDigital:
Any idea what's available? How about the Extremis 6.8's???
Sounds like the cabinet was better mated to the CV, at least for output.
I wholeheartedly agree with that.
You never know if it's the calculated No, or if it's measured at a frequency you're not interested in, on a 3x3 baffle, in a box, whatever.
A frequency response graph will be a much better indicator of efficiency. And (especially for subs) that will be seriously affected by the enclosure, and be unreliable in the lowest octaves of the system.
Any idea what's available? How about the Extremis 6.8's???
Sounds like the cabinet was better mated to the CV, at least for output.
I wholeheartedly agree with that.
You never know if it's the calculated No, or if it's measured at a frequency you're not interested in, on a 3x3 baffle, in a box, whatever.
A frequency response graph will be a much better indicator of efficiency. And (especially for subs) that will be seriously affected by the enclosure, and be unreliable in the lowest octaves of the system.
tsmith1315 said:
yeah, it's a company I used to work for out of Phoenix, it's called Robot Underground. They can build Adire products from parts purchased at the close out as well as TCSounds products aquired the same way. the only real difference between a factory assembeled woofer and their woofer is the dustcap.
You can buy direct at robotunderground@yahoo.com, (tell them Travis refered you) or shop the ebay store, I recomend dealing direct, you can have things customized that way.
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