My 2 cents
Hi everyone. I stumbled across this forum in a routine search, & am a big fan of the dsign of this arm. I have been working on mine off & on for the last 3/4 yrs. I recently bought a small lathe to see if i could improve cosmetics. Interested parties can see here:
New Arm
Please feel free to email me with any q's.....
Regards to all!
Vic
Hi everyone. I stumbled across this forum in a routine search, & am a big fan of the dsign of this arm. I have been working on mine off & on for the last 3/4 yrs. I recently bought a small lathe to see if i could improve cosmetics. Interested parties can see here:
New Arm
Please feel free to email me with any q's.....
Regards to all!
Vic
Hi Vic,
Very decent job, my congrats!
May I suggest you to consider better armtube damping? I got most of my arm sonic improvement going this route. Why don't you try hardwood with your woorworking skills?
Rather strange for me, you are trying to increase already substantial lateral mass. I never get my arm sounded better this way.
One thing I still have not succeded to address is low frequency, high energy transients, like massive strings or piano fortissimo attack, which are going into distortions sometimes. Maybe I shall try silicon well trough.. What is yor observations?
Cheers,
Michael
Very decent job, my congrats!
May I suggest you to consider better armtube damping? I got most of my arm sonic improvement going this route. Why don't you try hardwood with your woorworking skills?
Rather strange for me, you are trying to increase already substantial lateral mass. I never get my arm sounded better this way.
One thing I still have not succeded to address is low frequency, high energy transients, like massive strings or piano fortissimo attack, which are going into distortions sometimes. Maybe I shall try silicon well trough.. What is yor observations?
Cheers,
Michael
Hello Michael
Actually, your thread was inspirational in re-arousing my interest in this arm! I have indeed ordered some hardwood for my new arm. I am also working on a new bearing instead of the Stanley blade using PTFE. I will post the results.
I have damped the arm with some of the air-tubing from the pump. To be honest, I couldnt tell alot of difference....it just sounds so good anyway, but maybe im easily satisfied
I have experimented with the lateral mass & am aware of the debate on this issue. I have a weighted runner & an unweighted one. If I use the HiFi News test record for the Vertical & horizontal resonant frequencies, I get resonance at 16hz vertically, & 5Hz horizontally. The resonance in the horizontal plane is much more controlled with the weights. I dont like the idea of adding more weight to the runner, but if it controlls the resonance, is this not a good thing? Again, practically, I hear no audible difference.
I dont seem to have a problem with transients...but maybe thats just down to the brilliance of Lens Music Man cartridge? Are there any well known music passages I can test this with?
Thanks for the reply!
Cheers
Vic
Actually, your thread was inspirational in re-arousing my interest in this arm! I have indeed ordered some hardwood for my new arm. I am also working on a new bearing instead of the Stanley blade using PTFE. I will post the results.
I have damped the arm with some of the air-tubing from the pump. To be honest, I couldnt tell alot of difference....it just sounds so good anyway, but maybe im easily satisfied
I have experimented with the lateral mass & am aware of the debate on this issue. I have a weighted runner & an unweighted one. If I use the HiFi News test record for the Vertical & horizontal resonant frequencies, I get resonance at 16hz vertically, & 5Hz horizontally. The resonance in the horizontal plane is much more controlled with the weights. I dont like the idea of adding more weight to the runner, but if it controlls the resonance, is this not a good thing? Again, practically, I hear no audible difference.
I dont seem to have a problem with transients...but maybe thats just down to the brilliance of Lens Music Man cartridge? Are there any well known music passages I can test this with?
Thanks for the reply!
Cheers
Vic
Vic,
I have nothing against Music man cart, but I'm not sure it is the best match to ladegaard, considering its high compliance. I also started with compliant Shure 15XV and after switching to Denon 103 and Ortofon SPU I (and my arm) feel much better. I belive you will have better lateral resonance control without additional weights, replacing Stanley knife long linear contact bearing for something with more stable two-point contact, which would have much less rocking.
16 Hz vertical resonance fq is usually considered too much, the widely accepted optimum is 10-12 Hz. I've placed lighter counterweight much further from bearing, in order to bring the rez frequency into ballpark. Look at the Airtangent arm for example: very long counteweight rod.
I put my wooden arm into teak oil bath for a month, but the oil still penetrated not deeper than 2-3 mm against the grains (10-12 mm along the grains). Do you know any better method to soak wood with oil?
I'm listening mostly classical music, which is more demanding for playback system than rock (no offence, just physical fact), so it's easier for me to notice any sonic improvement/degradation; I do not need any special records for it.
Cheers,
Michael
I have nothing against Music man cart, but I'm not sure it is the best match to ladegaard, considering its high compliance. I also started with compliant Shure 15XV and after switching to Denon 103 and Ortofon SPU I (and my arm) feel much better. I belive you will have better lateral resonance control without additional weights, replacing Stanley knife long linear contact bearing for something with more stable two-point contact, which would have much less rocking.
16 Hz vertical resonance fq is usually considered too much, the widely accepted optimum is 10-12 Hz. I've placed lighter counterweight much further from bearing, in order to bring the rez frequency into ballpark. Look at the Airtangent arm for example: very long counteweight rod.
I put my wooden arm into teak oil bath for a month, but the oil still penetrated not deeper than 2-3 mm against the grains (10-12 mm along the grains). Do you know any better method to soak wood with oil?
I'm listening mostly classical music, which is more demanding for playback system than rock (no offence, just physical fact), so it's easier for me to notice any sonic improvement/degradation; I do not need any special records for it.
Cheers,
Michael
Hi Michael
Thanks for the tips. I am making needle point bearings for the vertical. I will see what happens with longer arm, smaller counterweight.
I think for the type of music i listen to, things may not be so critical. The biggest improvement I got was changing the Gyro motor!
Also. i dont understand why 4 wires are neccesary to the cartridge if 2 are earths. Will 3 wires not do connecting the earths together?
I dont know about the oil. What about using something thinner & maybe heating it? Suppose the wood was heated in an oven, then put in oil. As it cooled, it might draw the oil in deeper?
Whatever the outcome, I am having fun!
Vic
Thanks for the tips. I am making needle point bearings for the vertical. I will see what happens with longer arm, smaller counterweight.
I think for the type of music i listen to, things may not be so critical. The biggest improvement I got was changing the Gyro motor!
Also. i dont understand why 4 wires are neccesary to the cartridge if 2 are earths. Will 3 wires not do connecting the earths together?
I dont know about the oil. What about using something thinner & maybe heating it? Suppose the wood was heated in an oven, then put in oil. As it cooled, it might draw the oil in deeper?
Whatever the outcome, I am having fun!
Vic
livemusic asked:
If you vacuum-bag the wood with the oil (weight it down in a dish of oil, wrap a plastic bag around the whole thing, suck the air out of the bag) the gas will be driven out of the wood and replaced with the oil.
But teak is pretty oily naturally - that's why it's used on boat decks - and the lack of penetration may be because it's fairly saturated already.
If you vacuum-bag the wood with the oil (weight it down in a dish of oil, wrap a plastic bag around the whole thing, suck the air out of the bag) the gas will be driven out of the wood and replaced with the oil.
But teak is pretty oily naturally - that's why it's used on boat decks - and the lack of penetration may be because it's fairly saturated already.
Okay, I'm going to give this a project a try this weekend. I have a nice carbon fiber tapered golf putter to hack for the arm, a pump, some fishing weights, a torch, and some anodized angle-aluminum for the sliders.
One technical question, however. As the arm moves across the record, doesn't the slider "bump" into new airholes? They might be small and relatively low pressure, but surely they must give a tiny bit resistance to the slider as it moves giving a kind of cogging effect to the tracking.
Perhaps if the slider was longer than the cusion this problem could be avoided.
Also, I don't understand how and why I should use rubber o-rings to decouple the hung counterweight rather than string. Can someone draw me a picture and expain how this dampens oscillations?
Thanks!
artclone
One technical question, however. As the arm moves across the record, doesn't the slider "bump" into new airholes? They might be small and relatively low pressure, but surely they must give a tiny bit resistance to the slider as it moves giving a kind of cogging effect to the tracking.
Perhaps if the slider was longer than the cusion this problem could be avoided.
Also, I don't understand how and why I should use rubber o-rings to decouple the hung counterweight rather than string. Can someone draw me a picture and expain how this dampens oscillations?
Thanks!
artclone
Artclone,
Don't worry about airholes flow interference with the slider in motion. The actulal orifice holes of 0.3 mm are to be made in the mylar tape, glued underneath the rail profile. Passing the orifice, air is entering damping volume, shaped by the 2.5 mm hole in the aluminum angle right above the small hole and dramatically reduces its velocity, so you can barely feel it with your finger. I never noticed any subtle change in sound, when slider passes the airhole. Excentric records make much more harm.
Counterweight decoupling means the weight contact arm through soft compliant material like rubber, neopren, teflon, and not directly. Usually it is accomplished by means of o-rings or sleeve positioned between counterweight and its rod. I never got positive result with this: it sucks life from music. I would recommend to start without decoupling; it may mask real problems.
Good luck with your project!
One tip: Use the same piece of aluminum angle both for the rail and slider. Absolute profile match is essential; otherwise you will never get your arm airborne!
Cheers,
Michael
Don't worry about airholes flow interference with the slider in motion. The actulal orifice holes of 0.3 mm are to be made in the mylar tape, glued underneath the rail profile. Passing the orifice, air is entering damping volume, shaped by the 2.5 mm hole in the aluminum angle right above the small hole and dramatically reduces its velocity, so you can barely feel it with your finger. I never noticed any subtle change in sound, when slider passes the airhole. Excentric records make much more harm.
Counterweight decoupling means the weight contact arm through soft compliant material like rubber, neopren, teflon, and not directly. Usually it is accomplished by means of o-rings or sleeve positioned between counterweight and its rod. I never got positive result with this: it sucks life from music. I would recommend to start without decoupling; it may mask real problems.
Good luck with your project!
One tip: Use the same piece of aluminum angle both for the rail and slider. Absolute profile match is essential; otherwise you will never get your arm airborne!
Cheers,
Michael
I have done an experiment with my Ladegaard by resting the stylus on the surface of a non-rotating record & having the volume up at normal listening levels. I have discovered noise intruding from the air rushing past the runner. This is not good & am now devising a way of isolating the arm from this.
Any comments please?
Any comments please?
Are you speaking about noise coming out of speakers (I never had it) or just air flow hiss when you're getting close to the arm?
Anyway, I managed to get rid of last trace of hiss completely, just by plugging the first hole (nearest to the air intake, which is placed on left/remote end of the rail) with tiny piece of blue-tack.
The more elegant solution is implemented by Len Gregory (Cartrige Man) on his Conductor arm (see TNT review for details):
he supplies air pressure from both sides of the rail, while the air cavity is devided in two with the inner partition. But, the audible air hiss is still reported (!?)
I do not have any air hiss or assotiated noise whatsoever. I belive it is because of two reasons:
1. I'm trying to keep the overall/lateral mass as low as possible, by placing counterweight further from the pivot; so, you may use lighter counterweight (don't worry about vertical mass: it will be still within ballpark, since the arm is shorter than any conventional arm).
2. I use the same piece of AL angle for slider and rail for better profile match, getting lowest possible air gap.
All this allow me to use simple low energy/low noise aquarium pump, adjusting pressure just to keep the arm airborne, not more.
Cheers,
Michael
I'm just thinking it might also have something to do with type of cartridge,
construction of arm/interface of arm and cartridge, and so on....
With my latest cartridge I think I got "better" sound with more pressure,
with my present cartridge I get better sound with less pressure.
At least I think so....
construction of arm/interface of arm and cartridge, and so on....
With my latest cartridge I think I got "better" sound with more pressure,
with my present cartridge I get better sound with less pressure.
At least I think so....
Hello Michael
I am talking about noise from the speakers! The runner is acting as a conductor & because everything is rigidly connected, the sound of the air rushing past the runner is picked up microphonically through the stylus when it connects with the vinyl. Try resting the stylus on a still record with the compressor running. Then turn the compressor off. On my setup it is very apparent. I have been away on holiday, but will start to tackle the problem toda!
Cheers
Vic
I am talking about noise from the speakers! The runner is acting as a conductor & because everything is rigidly connected, the sound of the air rushing past the runner is picked up microphonically through the stylus when it connects with the vinyl. Try resting the stylus on a still record with the compressor running. Then turn the compressor off. On my setup it is very apparent. I have been away on holiday, but will start to tackle the problem toda!
Cheers
Vic
Hmm... I'm puzzled. I never ever heard any noise even with very basic undamped carbonfibre arm. Try to check following points:
1. Air holes: 0.3 mm holes are poked in mylar tape glued underneath the rail upper angle. The 2.5 mm holes in aluminum just above the small holes are making effective surge suppression chambers.
Check also if the holes are drilled exactly on the upper rail surface planes centerline.
2. Knife bearing. If you just use a hobby knife blade resting on the slider angle grove, it may rattle. I prefer much more stable two points bearing.
3. You may damp the slider itself by placing above it another ALU angle of the same size with the layer of silicone caulk in between.
Do not forget to make cutouts for horizontal bearing: the arm shall rigidly rest on the lower angle, otherwise you will deaden the sound.
Good luck,
Michael
Well, going thru all your points & looking at your pics, i noticed my runner could be the problem as it was a 3/4" profile. I changed this for a 1" profile, & found I needed less pressure to float it. This immediatley improved the noise situation.
I further improved it by:
-making a lighter arm using 6mm profile aluminium
-small counter weight, longer pivot
-using 2 runners with foam sandwich in between
-using needle bearing vertical pivot. Easy to experiment with different bits ever since I invested in a micro-lathe
Cant hear the air intrusion now. If there is any, its way below the amp noise. Not done any seriousl listening yet, but initial impressions ar very good!
Thanks again Michael!
Vic
I further improved it by:
-making a lighter arm using 6mm profile aluminium
-small counter weight, longer pivot
-using 2 runners with foam sandwich in between
-using needle bearing vertical pivot. Easy to experiment with different bits ever since I invested in a micro-lathe
Cant hear the air intrusion now. If there is any, its way below the amp noise. Not done any seriousl listening yet, but initial impressions ar very good!
Thanks again Michael!
Vic
Pics
More on:
Latest 6mm AL Arm
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More on:
Latest 6mm AL Arm
livemusic said:
why not start by first putting the wood in a vapor-proof bag with a desiccant (silica gel) in with it in order to dry it out? You might run into warpage/twisting by playing around with the moisture content though. Perhaps you can dry/oil it before you shape it into the final form?
angle materials
Well, I'm not able to start this project quite yet, which means i've been surfing the web too much. I have a couple of questions about materials though.
What characteristics make for a good angles, and what materials are useful for this? I was browsing through mcmastercarr, and saw the obvious steel, and aluminum. what about teflon, uhmw, polycarbonate, aluminum or pvc?
My guess is that durability, lightness, and stability, as well as machinability are of paramount importance.
Secondly, how are you connecting the air supply? anything fancy? or are you just "stuffing" it in there?
BTW, I'm really impressed with this project. I was initially turned off because it looked "too expensive" I think that is a tribute to the great engineering of those that have worked on this so far.
Well, I'm not able to start this project quite yet, which means i've been surfing the web too much. I have a couple of questions about materials though.
What characteristics make for a good angles, and what materials are useful for this? I was browsing through mcmastercarr, and saw the obvious steel, and aluminum. what about teflon, uhmw, polycarbonate, aluminum or pvc?
My guess is that durability, lightness, and stability, as well as machinability are of paramount importance.
Secondly, how are you connecting the air supply? anything fancy? or are you just "stuffing" it in there?
BTW, I'm really impressed with this project. I was initially turned off because it looked "too expensive" I think that is a tribute to the great engineering of those that have worked on this so far.
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