Ive been out of vinyl for almost two decades and have been asked by a friend for some advice on upgrading his system. He doesnt own a computer and has no interest in them. So hes been out of the information loop for some time. His only info flows from magazines and sales people! So I have volunteered to do some reseach.
He is going to replace a high output MC and Linn preamp setup with something else. He only listens to 50's - present jazz. What Ive offered to do is help him build a phono pre rather than buy the $800+ one a salesguy says is wonderful. Also, he needs a new MC and would like to go low output. So my intitial questions are thus:
1) Can a Phonoclone or similar put out enough voltage to directly connect to an amp without a preamp? He likes the idea less gain stages, such as the EAR 834P which I guess just has a potentiometer added to it. Eliminating the preamp purchase would add to his amp/MC budget.
2) What is the best bang for the buck in low output MC these days for $500 and under and $500-$1000.
Any insight into this sort of setup would be great.
amt
He is going to replace a high output MC and Linn preamp setup with something else. He only listens to 50's - present jazz. What Ive offered to do is help him build a phono pre rather than buy the $800+ one a salesguy says is wonderful. Also, he needs a new MC and would like to go low output. So my intitial questions are thus:
1) Can a Phonoclone or similar put out enough voltage to directly connect to an amp without a preamp? He likes the idea less gain stages, such as the EAR 834P which I guess just has a potentiometer added to it. Eliminating the preamp purchase would add to his amp/MC budget.
2) What is the best bang for the buck in low output MC these days for $500 and under and $500-$1000.
Any insight into this sort of setup would be great.
amt
Hi,
In the States probably the best value under $500 is
the Audio Technica OC9, at $300 it is very good value.
http://www.needledoctor.com/s.nl/it.A/id.223/.f?sc=2&category=363
compare to this :
http://www.needledoctor.com/s.nl/it.A/id.5968/.f?sc=2&category=369
In the UK the Denon is £210 and the AT OC9 £330 .... go figure.
You would need a seriously good (and seriously expensive) arm
and turntable to justify the use of a more expensive cartridge.
You can design the phono stage to have the correct output
to drive a power amplifier via a passive volume control.
Checkout the Pass Pearl DIY stage :
http://passdiy.com/projects/pearlono1.htm
/sreten.
In the States probably the best value under $500 is
the Audio Technica OC9, at $300 it is very good value.
http://www.needledoctor.com/s.nl/it.A/id.223/.f?sc=2&category=363
compare to this :
http://www.needledoctor.com/s.nl/it.A/id.5968/.f?sc=2&category=369
In the UK the Denon is £210 and the AT OC9 £330 .... go figure.
You would need a seriously good (and seriously expensive) arm
and turntable to justify the use of a more expensive cartridge.
You can design the phono stage to have the correct output
to drive a power amplifier via a passive volume control.
Checkout the Pass Pearl DIY stage :
http://passdiy.com/projects/pearlono1.htm
/sreten.
The 75 db Phonoclone should be enough to just plug it into an integrated amp if you use the Denon DL-103 or equal carts. The 90 db version should work the same with ultra low-output carts. Modern MM headamps tend to be 55 db and work without preamp. Calculate from there.
It's no problem achieving 75 db with ss.
$1,000 will offer you many alternatives. So you need to specify it a little more. What tonearm, for example.
It's no problem achieving 75 db with ss.
$1,000 will offer you many alternatives. So you need to specify it a little more. What tonearm, for example.
Well he's using a Linn Sondek LP12 with the Valhalla upgrade and an Akito arm I think. The Pearl appears to be a well regarded design and I will email Promitheus to see if any of the boards are still available. Are there boards elsewhere?
And thanks, I will check out the AT and Ortofon. Not boutique names so probably high value but low "cool factor"
amt
And thanks, I will check out the AT and Ortofon. Not boutique names so probably high value but low "cool factor"
amt
analog_sa said:
Hi,
$135 ? $220 more like.
The Denon is not my idea of an "all-rounder".
amt said:
Hi,
The KontraB is complete overkill in the Akito arm IMO.
That is if its an Akito II. For an Akito I TBH the AT AT440MLa
MM would probably work better than the OC9, and thats $90.
Stick with the OC9 and get an Ittok, checkout :
http://www.vinylengine.com/version14lp12faq.shtml
/sreten.
amt said:
The Pearl is definitely the way to go, if you can get boards from Prometheus. You will need the matching phono-pre for a low output MC like the OC9. My Pearl destroyed my Linn LK1 preamp phono section. I'm also using an Akito I arm with a medium output Glider on my Valhalla LP12.
This is only my second project (not including speakers) since building a Hafler DH-200 from kit form in 1980! You will be very happy with the Pearl if you decide to go this route.
Jeff
What cartridge does the man use now?
I have an OC9 and after my Linn Karma got long in the tooth I tried the OC9 but could not listen to it, to sterile and HiFi for me.
I have used a 103 Denon since in an Akito with a little lead tape (as used by golf pros on clubs to increase mass of tube and counterweight) and I do enjoy it. It required a cable change to open up the tops and it is not great on used LPs but a lot of bang for the buck and super musical. Analog SA was instrumental in my acquiring the 103 and need to say thanks.......
MM only in Akito, maybe but to my ears most MM sound plastic.....
Sumiko high output MCs are kind on arms and may be worth investigating....
Two useful tools:
http://www.vinylengine.com/tonearm_...r&ascdesc=ASC&type=1&pass=null&Search2=Search
http://www.cartridgedb.com/main.asp
I have an OC9 and after my Linn Karma got long in the tooth I tried the OC9 but could not listen to it, to sterile and HiFi for me.
I have used a 103 Denon since in an Akito with a little lead tape (as used by golf pros on clubs to increase mass of tube and counterweight) and I do enjoy it. It required a cable change to open up the tops and it is not great on used LPs but a lot of bang for the buck and super musical. Analog SA was instrumental in my acquiring the 103 and need to say thanks.......
MM only in Akito, maybe but to my ears most MM sound plastic.....
Sumiko high output MCs are kind on arms and may be worth investigating....
Two useful tools:
http://www.vinylengine.com/tonearm_...r&ascdesc=ASC&type=1&pass=null&Search2=Search
http://www.cartridgedb.com/main.asp
If you're interested in Pearl, Promitheus has a MC pre-pre section for it available as well.
Pearl pre thread
-Reko
(who's waiting for his own Pearl+pre kit to arrive )
Pearl pre thread
-Reko
(who's waiting for his own Pearl+pre kit to arrive
)vinylkid58 said:
rturja said:If you're interested in Pearl, Promitheus has a MC pre-pre section for it available as well.
Pearl pre thread
-Reko
(who's waiting for his own Pearl+pre kit to arrive
Huh ?????
Output of the OC9 is 400uv and the Pearl was tested with a 400/500uV
cartridge. Whats with this MC pre-pre ? It shouldn't be needed at all ?
/sreten.
sreten said:
Well, if your system has very efficient speakers, you may very well be able to use a Pearl and a 0.5mV MC without the aid of a step-up of some sort. Sure the Pearl was tested with a 0.5mV cartridge, but tested with what? The Pearl alone only has 59dB of gain.
Besides, having the matching step-up gives you the opportunity to run a truly low output MC if desired.
Jeff
I haven't got first hand experience, but what I've gathered so far is that Pearl doesn't give enough punch for low-output MC's and some kind of step-up is needed, be it MC pre-pre or step-up transformer.
(I managed somehow to mix the threads or whatever to make me think that low-output MC's were involved though )
-Reko
(I managed somehow to mix the threads or whatever to make me think that low-output MC's were involved though
)-Reko
No you didnt mix your threads. The goal is to try and use a low output MC with just an attentuator and a phono pre.
So will the AT OC9 actually work with the Pearl sans active preamp?
BTW, I misunderstood my friend and he does indeed have an early Ittok. He originally had the Akito but upgraded that after the other upgrades.
Pearl PCBs and parts kits are still available too.
amt
So will the AT OC9 actually work with the Pearl sans active preamp?
BTW, I misunderstood my friend and he does indeed have an early Ittok. He originally had the Akito but upgraded that after the other upgrades.
Pearl PCBs and parts kits are still available too.
amt
Well to be frank, Im alittle confused with the use of voltage and db gain. How does the db gain relate to voltage output? Im sure that 0.357v wont be enough to drive his Linn amp. So if he wants to eliminate his preamp, he would need something like the the Phonoclone @ 75-90db or the VSPS ultra possibly? These would also be easier for him as a first project. And I would guess they should be an improvement over his 20+year old Linn phono section.
He is currently using a Supex901. I noticed that the Denon DL-103 seems to have gotten good reviews too.
amt
He is currently using a Supex901. I noticed that the Denon DL-103 seems to have gotten good reviews too.
amt
amt said:
Voltage-db-voltage calculator
In short, 55 db is roughly 1:550. 75 db =550x10=5,500. The Denon DL-103 has about 1/10 the output of a MM cart. There are other factors. But this should be close enough. 75 db gives the 0.3mV(rms@5cm) DL-103 1.65V.
Having that said, just about any modern MC preamp should work with just about any MC cart. If it's a high-output MC any MM preamp will do. Despite the previous paragraph, this shouldn't need to be too complicated.
Okay, the cartridge that was finally purchased was a Benz Ref 3 Copper. Its specced at .3 mv but its suppose to be slightly less (between .25 and .3)
Can a preamp be eliminated and if so, by using what gain stages?
A Phonoclone or
valve MM amp with transformers or
VSPS with transformers
And if a preamp is really a must, if valves are used, will a Phonoclone be appropriate or is it better to use a MM/transformer combo.
And Im still not sure if people use transformers with SS or mostly for tube equipment, due to lower gain and more noise.
amt
Can a preamp be eliminated and if so, by using what gain stages?
A Phonoclone or
valve MM amp with transformers or
VSPS with transformers
And if a preamp is really a must, if valves are used, will a Phonoclone be appropriate or is it better to use a MM/transformer combo.
And Im still not sure if people use transformers with SS or mostly for tube equipment, due to lower gain and more noise.
amt
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