Well the cartridge on that is £3k and the arm used to sell for similar. Bung in a Nagra phono stage and it only seems mildly offensive in total cost
Which version Nagra ?
Vivaldi shouldn't have 'granite like bass'
Why do you think idlers have better bass? Other than sighted listening and people telling you that idlers have great bass? Don't get me wrong, idlers can work really well, but they are the hardest of all drive methods to fettle and the easiest to get very wrong.
Why do you think idlers have better bass? Other than sighted listening and people telling you that idlers have great bass? Don't get me wrong, idlers can work really well, but they are the hardest of all drive methods to fettle and the easiest to get very wrong.
I've compared those turntable principles, soundwise. It has mostly to do with the different transfer of torque to the platter. It could be done by idler, by a combination of idler and belt, by belt or any string or by direct drive.
An idler drive seem to withstand the best the tendency of the needle to slow down with strong impulses on the record. Its rock steady hard and never let the platter slow down when the motor drive is strong enough. Every belt or string drive isn't able to have such a direct and short energy distribution method to the platter. With a Platine Verdier, the string was approx one meter long. So this is a very weak coupling of platter and motor.
You can test it with a trick: clamp a separate flock on the granite of Platine Verdier left side front and make it a strong support against the players tendency to shift to the left because of the strings force. Immediately you will have better low freq. response.
Even a direct drive model could not make for such a quality in bass. I've compared that with EMT players, the idler driven models beat the direct drive by a huge margin in that region. And its not the bass response only, idler drives load the record with a strong forcefull drive and that sound is the main difference character to any other record player.
Some may prefer belts or string driven turntables, but everyones his own.
Idlers were driven out of the market because they can tend to be noisy due to the relative hard coupling of motor and platter. That could enable the motor noise vibration to be injected to the needle and being amplified. Once you manage to get an idler silent on this weak link, the result can astonish, even with old idler driven players. Today, that problem could be solved nicely with refined parts quality and a plinth, that eliminate those motor vibrations without robbing the music its energy and soul.
An idler drive seem to withstand the best the tendency of the needle to slow down with strong impulses on the record. Its rock steady hard and never let the platter slow down when the motor drive is strong enough. Every belt or string drive isn't able to have such a direct and short energy distribution method to the platter. With a Platine Verdier, the string was approx one meter long. So this is a very weak coupling of platter and motor.
You can test it with a trick: clamp a separate flock on the granite of Platine Verdier left side front and make it a strong support against the players tendency to shift to the left because of the strings force. Immediately you will have better low freq. response.
Even a direct drive model could not make for such a quality in bass. I've compared that with EMT players, the idler driven models beat the direct drive by a huge margin in that region. And its not the bass response only, idler drives load the record with a strong forcefull drive and that sound is the main difference character to any other record player.
Some may prefer belts or string driven turntables, but everyones his own.
Idlers were driven out of the market because they can tend to be noisy due to the relative hard coupling of motor and platter. That could enable the motor noise vibration to be injected to the needle and being amplified. Once you manage to get an idler silent on this weak link, the result can astonish, even with old idler driven players. Today, that problem could be solved nicely with refined parts quality and a plinth, that eliminate those motor vibrations without robbing the music its energy and soul.
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You do realise you have nothing but anecdote to back that up? Measurements of speed stability do not place idlers any higher than anything else. I'm not dissing your choice as idlers are hours of fun, like an old car with a carburettor and points ignition but on here we've tried to measure needle drag effects with little success. Great stories for the audio press, but reality sadly doesn't back it up.
I've heard the difference, thats "anecdote" for me enough. And I've owned, worked with and experienced some of the best turntables ever made.
You can and have to make your own experiences in life, like everyone should. And you have to make your own choices.
But if your experiences only base on measurements, then you don't life with all your senses but instead with a measurement device lol.
You can and have to make your own experiences in life, like everyone should. And you have to make your own choices.
But if your experiences only base on measurements, then you don't life with all your senses but instead with a measurement device lol.
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This perceived difference of "bass punch" and needle drag/speed changes depending on the platter drive system is likely only detectable in poorly designed turntables.
I've heard every argument concerning this topic already.
If a stylus causes enough drag to slow things down, the turntable is crap, plain and simple.
The amount of drag at typical stylus pressures in a modulated groove is tiny at best.
Inertia of the platter can easily overcome any stylus drag -IF it's got enough mass, regardless of how it's driven.
Those silly over-priced esoteric machines, string-driven, belt-driven, with platters that weigh dozens of pounds should not have any rotational fluctuations due to stylus drag.
If the listener perceives fluctuations, it's likely in their head.
Sorry, but I don't buy into all that crazy stuff, I like to keep my feet on the ground and my head out of the clouds of rediculousness.
I've heard every argument concerning this topic already.
If a stylus causes enough drag to slow things down, the turntable is crap, plain and simple.
The amount of drag at typical stylus pressures in a modulated groove is tiny at best.
Inertia of the platter can easily overcome any stylus drag -IF it's got enough mass, regardless of how it's driven.
Those silly over-priced esoteric machines, string-driven, belt-driven, with platters that weigh dozens of pounds should not have any rotational fluctuations due to stylus drag.
If the listener perceives fluctuations, it's likely in their head.
Sorry, but I don't buy into all that crazy stuff, I like to keep my feet on the ground and my head out of the clouds of rediculousness.
Well there are a LOT of stories of good good pinch roller turntables sounding "strong" or "dynamic" and other similar descriptions. The trouble being that so far no one has come forward with hard proof of the groove drag thing. I think we had some tests over in the Test LP thread.
So if the pinch rollers really do have a special sound, it's been difficult or impossible to find by measurement.
So if the pinch rollers really do have a special sound, it's been difficult or impossible to find by measurement.
If you've heard every argument, while not making your own practical experiences and tell others instead of presenting another theory?
Between "should not have" and "have it in practice" lies a distance as big as the earth to the moon.
Nothing new could be read in your post, just the never ending theoretical discussion without any practical experience.
Did you compare some of the best of the different types of record player? And I mean in practice? I don't think so. Especially not the best of them.
Between "should not have" and "have it in practice" lies a distance as big as the earth to the moon.
Nothing new could be read in your post, just the never ending theoretical discussion without any practical experience.
Did you compare some of the best of the different types of record player? And I mean in practice? I don't think so. Especially not the best of them.
Man, that has been all done decades ago. Are you new in this hobby or just having read too much stories about phenomens in audio forums?
I'm coming from a time, there were no internet audio forums. And even no internet. In those times, they have tested the record players with all kinds of measurements regarding their stability. And should I tell you something new, the idler driven players were rock steady hard when it comes to wow and flutter. Nothing brings them easily out of phase. In every other system, they had to use regulators or high mass to be pitch perfect machines. You know the direct drives with quartz control circuits? Have you ever read about an idler drive with quartz control???
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You are right Schmitz, I just started in audio last month. And (true confession) I have never actually heard, built or tested anything - I just read about it on the interwebs. You found me out!!
Plus, what do you mean about a time before the Internet? That's just crazy talk, there has always been an Internet.
Plus, what do you mean about a time before the Internet? That's just crazy talk, there has always been an Internet.
Schmitz77's post #93 shows some turntable with a monsterous platter.
It's one of those "esoteric" and silly machines that I mentioned earlier with what looks like a string drive.
Now can anybody with some knowledge and experience actually tell me that once spinning at 33rpm, that platter is going to slow down, even momentarily, with the "drag" of a tiny stylus tip in a modulated groove?
Physics, inertia, the "flywheel effect", and mass are at play here, of course, and anyone with some idea of such things could explain and answer with some intelligence.
Even I, for one, know a machine like that wouldn't have any problem playing a damn record.
Even though I'd never have something like that thing in the house - I'm more reasonable than that.
It's one of those "esoteric" and silly machines that I mentioned earlier with what looks like a string drive.
Now can anybody with some knowledge and experience actually tell me that once spinning at 33rpm, that platter is going to slow down, even momentarily, with the "drag" of a tiny stylus tip in a modulated groove?
Physics, inertia, the "flywheel effect", and mass are at play here, of course, and anyone with some idea of such things could explain and answer with some intelligence.
Even I, for one, know a machine like that wouldn't have any problem playing a damn record.
Even though I'd never have something like that thing in the house - I'm more reasonable than that.