I had to look that up! Guess I'll have to stick with the suspended sub-chassis of my Technics SL-QX200 direct drive!
Audio Reproduction | Audiophile Turntables | Anti Vibration Isolation Platforms-Tables
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Some people have $4000 cartridges on $3000 tonearms on their turntables. Against that 2400 is cheap for the total isolation it gives. But it's not DIY I will give you that.
You realise this is total conjecture (and incorrect)? There seems to be a huge confusion over how DD works and the size of the forces involved compared to the inertia present.
Considering the forces - a tiny stylus in the groove at perhaps 2 to 3 grams, even with high modulation of said groove, will only cause a minute amount of "drag".
The inertial spinning of the platter/record, being an average of a couple of pounds, would not be affected to any degree by this tiny drag.
Only extreme "slippage" of the record against the platter could possibly make the music sour.
Furthermore, the forces (DD or BD or ID) used to make the platter revolve are more inclined to change the rotational speed to the point of detection by the human ear.
This internet-driven paranoia of stylus drag vs platter speed disruption has circulated and spread like a plague.
Among plenty of other wild and crazy stories of audio horrors.
How?
How a motor, which includes the platter as its rotor, spins at 33rpm or HALF of a hertz can be audible when ALL turntables has to turn at 33rpm? I can wager you can hear noise when a motor in a belt-drive or idler drive table spins at 1800rpm which is 30HZ when not decoupled properly.
This kind of audio myth is repeated ad nauseam everywhere from all kinds of people including belt-drive turntable dealers, one of which was espousing such nonsense to show goers at an audio show recently. Nothing is perfect and all drive systems have their flaws but motor noise in well designed direct drive turntables is not one of them.
Hi wiseoldtech,
I am too, in as long as you have been. But I will strongly disagree with you. Electronics does not sound alike, nor do cartridges. Luckily I have seen just about everything come across my bench, and did warranty for some excellent manufacturers.
I have little doubt that direct drive tables can sound very good, but they are in a minority compared to a good Thorens or Linn table. Mine are all Thorens using Ortofon cartridges (currently a 540 MKII, and the old table has a VMS-30 MKII). Tacky mats are the best! They damp out the vibrations in the record and bond the album to the platter (2.5 kg in my case). Probably the best upgrade ever made to whatever brand of table you use. I have a pair of "Platter Matters" and am looking for something similar as mine have lost their sticky surfaces. Static isn't too bad and really only appears when you peel the mat from the LP. A breath eliminates that issue, as does the record cleaner brush.
Tonearms absolutely matter. The factory arms that Thorens and Linn make are better than most aftermarket arms. With Thorens, the anti-skating is done magnetically. No contact with the arm at all. That is a massive plus that contributes to a silent background.
Anyway, many Technics receivers sound grainy, gritty. Some of their top end stuff is very good. Much of the best equipment was made in the '70's and '80's. Newer stuff has some very good pieces of equipment as well. But like every era, there is a lot of junk mixed with a few good designs. They certainly do not sound very similar!
-Chris
I am too, in as long as you have been. But I will strongly disagree with you. Electronics does not sound alike, nor do cartridges. Luckily I have seen just about everything come across my bench, and did warranty for some excellent manufacturers.
I have little doubt that direct drive tables can sound very good, but they are in a minority compared to a good Thorens or Linn table. Mine are all Thorens using Ortofon cartridges (currently a 540 MKII, and the old table has a VMS-30 MKII). Tacky mats are the best! They damp out the vibrations in the record and bond the album to the platter (2.5 kg in my case). Probably the best upgrade ever made to whatever brand of table you use. I have a pair of "Platter Matters" and am looking for something similar as mine have lost their sticky surfaces. Static isn't too bad and really only appears when you peel the mat from the LP. A breath eliminates that issue, as does the record cleaner brush.
Tonearms absolutely matter. The factory arms that Thorens and Linn make are better than most aftermarket arms. With Thorens, the anti-skating is done magnetically. No contact with the arm at all. That is a massive plus that contributes to a silent background.
Anyway, many Technics receivers sound grainy, gritty. Some of their top end stuff is very good. Much of the best equipment was made in the '70's and '80's. Newer stuff has some very good pieces of equipment as well. But like every era, there is a lot of junk mixed with a few good designs. They certainly do not sound very similar!
-Chris
Well gee,
Some facts are wrong here as well. Thorens uses a slow rotating motor, nowhere near 1,800 RPM claimed. They use a clutch on the motor shaft and a thin belt along with a different chassis for the motor that is suspended also. No motor noise guys. In fact, a lot comes down to the bearing on any serious table, and the platter weight (within reason). I haven't seen many DD tables with decent bearings or heavier platters.
I'm not saying they can't make a good table, but most are light junk. I have owned and used DD tables and the Thorens or Linn kills them for rumble and noise - including any motor noise. DD tables have a long way to go if you want them to be taken seriously. Every spinning platter obeys the laws of physics. Bearing and platter weight have a positive influence on noise no matter what the driving force is.
-Chris
Some facts are wrong here as well. Thorens uses a slow rotating motor, nowhere near 1,800 RPM claimed. They use a clutch on the motor shaft and a thin belt along with a different chassis for the motor that is suspended also. No motor noise guys. In fact, a lot comes down to the bearing on any serious table, and the platter weight (within reason). I haven't seen many DD tables with decent bearings or heavier platters.
I'm not saying they can't make a good table, but most are light junk. I have owned and used DD tables and the Thorens or Linn kills them for rumble and noise - including any motor noise. DD tables have a long way to go if you want them to be taken seriously. Every spinning platter obeys the laws of physics. Bearing and platter weight have a positive influence on noise no matter what the driving force is.
-Chris
Hi Chris,
I don't recall stating that cartridges/equipment sound alike, perhaps you could find that statement and refresh my memory.
Because I know different equipment has it's own sonic signature, mostly due to cost differences and tier levels.
I said "I can wager you can hear noise WHEN a motor in a belt-drive or idler drive table spins at 1800rpm which is 30HZ when not decoupled properly."
I did NOT name Thorens in my post. You seem to reference everything to Thorens. Not all belt drive turntables are made by Thorens. I should have worded as "certain motor" in a belt drive or idler drive table. What I had in mind was that many vintage idler and belt drive tables a la Rek-O-Kut, Empire, McCurdy, Russco, EMT, etc... have a huge motor such as the Ashland motor that runs between 1200rpm to 1800rpm and it has been a huge pain to tame that beast in the vintage world. The point is that a large high torque motor at high speed creates such vibration and noise that needs to be dealt with in a belt-drive or idler drive table. It is no surprise modern manufacturers tend to go with low torque small motor a la Linn, etc... By the way, Thorens released a direct drive, TD-524, at one point so there's exception to everything.
My lowly kenwood Direct Drive only has a 2 LB platter with a bonded rubber mat (coating).
Its spindle and ball thrust bearing on a teflon pad are of exceptional quality and fit.
Spinning the platter by hand for around 200 to 300 RPM, and with an ear almost touching the spindle, it is absolutely silent.
No grinding, no ringing, nothing.
So, at 33 1/3, I'm sure it's of no issue to my musical enjoyment.
Its spindle and ball thrust bearing on a teflon pad are of exceptional quality and fit.
Spinning the platter by hand for around 200 to 300 RPM, and with an ear almost touching the spindle, it is absolutely silent.
No grinding, no ringing, nothing.
So, at 33 1/3, I'm sure it's of no issue to my musical enjoyment.
Hi directdriver,
Simple, I have by far the most experience with these tables, that's all. It would be pointless for me to comment on all teh crappy tables I have worked on over the years. Pioneer would be a good example of a cheap belt turntable. I have zero love for Dual as well.
I will go out on a limb here to say that if the table, no matter what the drive system is, has a light platter, it probably isn't nearly as good as those tables that do have heavy platters. I'm assuming that the heavy platters are balanced and accurate for dimensions and that the bearings are up to snuff. If your DD table isn't these things, it would be best to slink out the back door without drawing attention to yourself.
-Chris
Simple, I have by far the most experience with these tables, that's all. It would be pointless for me to comment on all teh crappy tables I have worked on over the years. Pioneer would be a good example of a cheap belt turntable. I have zero love for Dual as well.
I will go out on a limb here to say that if the table, no matter what the drive system is, has a light platter, it probably isn't nearly as good as those tables that do have heavy platters. I'm assuming that the heavy platters are balanced and accurate for dimensions and that the bearings are up to snuff. If your DD table isn't these things, it would be best to slink out the back door without drawing attention to yourself.
-Chris
I explained it vaguely. I cant hear static electricity but the effects are noticeable. I became aware of the problems when I experimented with a silicone made peripheral disk with copper. I did the experiment with vinyl too.
I found that the vinyl, the silicone, any metal object rotating could be heard from actually a decent distance from the needle. The grounding is important but there is enough static charge around the vinyl/arm/needle to create effects and amplify problems such as vinyl imperfections.
Anything that can remove the small static electricity around the said parts is going to be audible such as leather, water with ionizer solution.
High humidity removes static charges, water with a ionizer solution removes even the charge in the water and moves it to the arm grounding system through the needle.
My hypothesis for the leather effect is that it nulls the ability of vinyl to become (-), the friction is with the metal bearing/metal, metal needle and vinyl. iow it breaks the static bonding between the platter and the vinyl.
Otherwise with any other plastic / wood /silicon / pcv / teflon (electron takers -) the whole platter with the record is taking up electrons from the friction and air friction above the deck, and belt.
If you break the static path between the vinyl with leather which is a strong electron taker, you will reduce static build up considerably.
Exactly that is my reasoning, and from there the starting question arises.
A direct transmission turntable rotates at 1.79 hz, totally inaudible.
So the initial question: which is more audiofila or purer in its sound, belt drive or direct drive (taking resonances of plinth, tonearm, etc)
But I asked why all reviews say otherwise and if I went to buy I would buy or Pro Ject or Rega.
Which I have now dismissed. I'll stay with direct drive.
A direct transmission turntable rotates at 1.79 hz, totally inaudible.
So the initial question: which is more audiofila or purer in its sound, belt drive or direct drive (taking resonances of plinth, tonearm, etc)
But I asked why all reviews say otherwise and if I went to buy I would buy or Pro Ject or Rega.
Which I have now dismissed. I'll stay with direct drive.
Hi directdriver,
Simple, I have by far the most experience with these tables, that's all. It would be pointless for me to comment on all teh crappy tables I have worked on over the years. Pioneer would be a good example of a cheap belt turntable. I have zero love for Dual as well.
I will go out on a limb here to say that if the table, no matter what the drive system is, has a light platter, it probably isn't nearly as good as those tables that do have heavy platters. I'm assuming that the heavy platters are balanced and accurate for dimensions and that the bearings are up to snuff. If your DD table isn't these things, it would be best to slink out the back door without drawing attention to yourself.
-Chris
Now now, Dual has made some excellent turntables.
I owned a brand new 1219 and 1229 back in the day, and they performed flawlessly with a Shure V15/2, even with my young and picky hearing back then.
Even with headphones on.
Those are long gone now, but I do own a pristine 1215 which reminds me of those heavy beasts, and still allows me to enjoy the music.
I recently overhauled a 701 DD for my neighbor, and it also is a sweet machine, even for today's standards.
As for my DD Kenwood, with its 2 LB platter - it apparently has the right combination of "synergy" involved to achieve "high-end" performance.
The bottom line is..... fundamentally, a silent spinning platter and a frictionless tonearm, is all you really need.