Hi, I again with my discussions.
I'm some time ago to update my old turntable, Aiwa AP2400, direct drive; 1982; with an Audio Techica AT 440 Mlb capsule.
For this reason I have read countless reviews and articles on current turntables.
I have focused on budget within which are Pro Ject Debut Carbon DC; Rega Planar 2; Pioneer PLX 1000
This last DD.
I read the argument of belt drive vs. direct drive, of which there is infinity on the internet.
The conclusion that arrives is that with audiophile purposes the belt drive turntables win and for DJ the direct drive wins.
The argument by majority is that the direct drives have greater motor noise when this is coupled to the plate, not so in the belt drive.
My dilemma is: I do not hear any Humm on my turntable, or on the speakers or placing a stethoscope on the arm bearing.
Also my reasoning is: how could there be Humm if the motor-plate turns at almost 2 RPM ?.
If I compare the specifications, the Humm of a direct turntable are superior to the specifications of a belt drive (Aiwa AP2400 has -70dB) (I clarify that the belt drive turntables in which the motor is outside the plinth do not enter into this discussion They are not in this budget)
And finally I saw a lot of post where there are complaints of Humm in Pro Ject and Rega, should do some DIY work to improve it.
That's why I'm in doubt about acquiring the Pioneer PLX 1000 or Pro Ject or Rega.
Greetings.
I'm some time ago to update my old turntable, Aiwa AP2400, direct drive; 1982; with an Audio Techica AT 440 Mlb capsule.
For this reason I have read countless reviews and articles on current turntables.
I have focused on budget within which are Pro Ject Debut Carbon DC; Rega Planar 2; Pioneer PLX 1000
This last DD.
I read the argument of belt drive vs. direct drive, of which there is infinity on the internet.
The conclusion that arrives is that with audiophile purposes the belt drive turntables win and for DJ the direct drive wins.
The argument by majority is that the direct drives have greater motor noise when this is coupled to the plate, not so in the belt drive.
My dilemma is: I do not hear any Humm on my turntable, or on the speakers or placing a stethoscope on the arm bearing.
Also my reasoning is: how could there be Humm if the motor-plate turns at almost 2 RPM ?.
If I compare the specifications, the Humm of a direct turntable are superior to the specifications of a belt drive (Aiwa AP2400 has -70dB) (I clarify that the belt drive turntables in which the motor is outside the plinth do not enter into this discussion They are not in this budget)
And finally I saw a lot of post where there are complaints of Humm in Pro Ject and Rega, should do some DIY work to improve it.
That's why I'm in doubt about acquiring the Pioneer PLX 1000 or Pro Ject or Rega.
Greetings.
Last edited:
Direct drive and idler drive (broadcast) turntables have a different signature than belt drive turntables. More motor noise coupled to the platter in dd turntables: no. You might hear an idler wheel turntable "rumble" when the amplifier is off but it has to be really bad to a degree that makes the machine a case for the workshop if it can be heard.
Back to "better": it depends on your taste. If you like paper in oil capacitors, get a belt drive.
And befor getting something like a Pioneer PLX 1000 look into secons hand tables like Denon DP-2500 and the likes.
Back to "better": it depends on your taste. If you like paper in oil capacitors, get a belt drive.
And befor getting something like a Pioneer PLX 1000 look into secons hand tables like Denon DP-2500 and the likes.
To address the lovely internet's countless guru's that spew various myths and assumptions about turntables.....
A properly operating and designed DD turntable is totally silent.
There is no "motor noise" from these machines, unless there is a fault or repair in order, or the person hears things inside their own head.
Of course there are different levels of quality and performance due to costs, and today's costs are wildly inflated over vintage prices for even less build quality
In other words, they don't make them with the same care and quality as they did before, yet charge way more.
And no, associating DD machines specifically with DJ's is nonsense - dreamt up over the internet by goofballs.
Just because the "original audiophile" Technics sl-1200's were "adopted" into DJ use does not mean they are DJ-only machines.
Belt drive, on the other hand, can be quite nice, but belt replacement and motor maintenance is required, as do idler drive machines.
It's simpler to make a belt drive, but these days prices have skyrocketed for junk machines costing far more than premium DD machines of the past.
A properly operating and designed DD turntable is totally silent.
There is no "motor noise" from these machines, unless there is a fault or repair in order, or the person hears things inside their own head.
Of course there are different levels of quality and performance due to costs, and today's costs are wildly inflated over vintage prices for even less build quality
In other words, they don't make them with the same care and quality as they did before, yet charge way more.
And no, associating DD machines specifically with DJ's is nonsense - dreamt up over the internet by goofballs.
Just because the "original audiophile" Technics sl-1200's were "adopted" into DJ use does not mean they are DJ-only machines.
Belt drive, on the other hand, can be quite nice, but belt replacement and motor maintenance is required, as do idler drive machines.
It's simpler to make a belt drive, but these days prices have skyrocketed for junk machines costing far more than premium DD machines of the past.
They turn at the speed Rega wants them to have, just enough faster than
it should be, for some to like the effect. Otherwise they would sound murky.
Same for Pro-Ject, at least the entry level models. The PLX-1000 is definitely worth a punt, although the odd one seems to have loose tonearm bearings. So that's something to be aware of.
jeff
wiseoldtech, You're right about zero humm. On my turntable Aiwa AP2400 I can not hear any noise.
I have been told that it is manufactured by CEC Chuo Denki and apparently towards good things.
My question is if your tonearm is good or not and when you do not know its mass you would not know if the combination with AT440Mlb is good.
Actually I wanted to venture into Pro Ject or Rega for their renowned tonearms.
But Billshurv and Rayma have already taken my enthusiasm.
I think I'll save to buy a turntable from a bigger budget. (here in Uruguay there are not many offers in good audio, my Marantz PM6006 acquired it in Amazon paying US $ 300 more than import taxes, something similar will happen with the turntable)
I have been told that it is manufactured by CEC Chuo Denki and apparently towards good things.
My question is if your tonearm is good or not and when you do not know its mass you would not know if the combination with AT440Mlb is good.
Actually I wanted to venture into Pro Ject or Rega for their renowned tonearms.
But Billshurv and Rayma have already taken my enthusiasm.
I think I'll save to buy a turntable from a bigger budget. (here in Uruguay there are not many offers in good audio, my Marantz PM6006 acquired it in Amazon paying US $ 300 more than import taxes, something similar will happen with the turntable)
Last edited:
Those project and rega machines are really not all that special.
And do not listen to everything about tonearms from others - it's all mainly cheap talk.
The same thing goes for all audio equipment, cartridges too.
if you are interested in 'hifi fidelity' turn tables...
all technics and audio technica are JUNK, the platters in aluminum .. very resonant with a CHEAP plastic cover....
Belt turn table is a must AND if you are almost sensitive to pitch which will change with every single warp in the record, a SPEED regulator is a MUST!@!!!!!!!!!
So , best tt is a must, with a speed regulator, anything under is a HUGE compromise in sound, Debut carbon is junk....(i hear it many times)
once you hear the RPM 9 from Pro-ject with ref cartridges, everything else is a big compromise....
there are other good turntables, like the Stogi REF arm it is very $$$ but worth it, nothing compares to it,
maybe on the 'cheap' side you can consider the AT-LP7 , never heard it yet, I have to visit my hifi dealer soon
but I am happy with my current setup which is way higher end.
all technics and audio technica are JUNK, the platters in aluminum .. very resonant with a CHEAP plastic cover....
Belt turn table is a must AND if you are almost sensitive to pitch which will change with every single warp in the record, a SPEED regulator is a MUST!@!!!!!!!!!
So , best tt is a must, with a speed regulator, anything under is a HUGE compromise in sound, Debut carbon is junk....(i hear it many times)
once you hear the RPM 9 from Pro-ject with ref cartridges, everything else is a big compromise....
there are other good turntables, like the Stogi REF arm it is very $$$ but worth it, nothing compares to it,
maybe on the 'cheap' side you can consider the AT-LP7 , never heard it yet, I have to visit my hifi dealer soon
but I am happy with my current setup which is way higher end.
Last edited:
if you are interested in 'hifi fidelity' turn tables...
all technics and audio technica are JUNK, the platters in aluminum .. very resonant with a CHEAP plastic cover....
Belt turn table is a must AND if you are almost sensitive to pitch which will change with every single warp in the record, a SPEED regulator is a MUST!@!!!!!!!!!
So , best tt is a must, with a speed regulator, anything under is a HUGE compromise in sound, Debut carbon is junk....(i hear it many times)
once you hear the RPM 9 from Pro-ject with ref cartridges, everything else is a big compromise....
there are other good turntables, like the Stogi REF arm it is very $$$ but worth it, nothing compares to it,
maybe on the 'cheap' side you can consider the AT-LP7 , never heard it yet, I have to visit my hifi dealer soon
I tend to agree that having some form of speed adjustment on a turntable is a big plus.
However, the rest of your post is hugely biased and incredibly incorrect, the type of post that I've seen many times online from people, and I'm glad that I'm educated enough both as an honest audiophile, as well as being a long time (45+ years) sales/servicer of audio - that I know better than listen to such garbage talk.
I have just gone through the exercise of re-working a Denon 30L. The results are good. I looked up the Aiwa AP-2400. I notice that the arm is based on the ADC head shell arrangement. On the Denon I replaced the arm with such an arrangement. There are many improvements that can be made. However you have to be prepared to disassemble everything and examine closely.
For example, the head shell connection is sloppy. This needs to be an interference fit. So for the Denon, I used adhesive copper tape which is normally used for EMI seals to add to the head shell joint. That took care of the slop. The arm needed internal damping, therefore foam was put in the arm tube so it was under compression. The arm base was damped with foam under compression also. Dynamat was used to deaden areas of the plinth. There are things that you can do, that no manufacturer of a budget TT can do because of cost. The Denon is now a different TT because I put in the time and effort.
For example, the head shell connection is sloppy. This needs to be an interference fit. So for the Denon, I used adhesive copper tape which is normally used for EMI seals to add to the head shell joint. That took care of the slop. The arm needed internal damping, therefore foam was put in the arm tube so it was under compression. The arm base was damped with foam under compression also. Dynamat was used to deaden areas of the plinth. There are things that you can do, that no manufacturer of a budget TT can do because of cost. The Denon is now a different TT because I put in the time and effort.
wiseoldtech,
spot on replies. There was a forum in the UK (it still exists) that had an industry professional contributing about 14 years ago. This forum also had some rabid Garrrard fanatics who wanted to attack this man but felt intimidated by his vast professional expertise when he advocated d/d decks.
He presented a list of some of the best of the Japanese 'superdecks'. One of these was the Kenwood KD 990. I saw one on ebay.de and bought it quite cheaply then. It was badly packed, unusual from a German seller and it was dropped in transit.
Unbelievably the only damage was to a corner of the plinth, it played perfectly. I negotiated a refund that made the price @£120. I later bought another one for €350.
I should have replaced all the electrolytics but didn't and both the power caps leaked on the first deck.
I've just purchased 2 x sets of caps of Panasonic FR and the cost is around £6 per deck.
It's bearing system is superb and will with bi-annual Slick 50 oil change last indefinitely. As you say the best of the d/d decks are silent compared to idler/belt drives.
Perhaps it is this silence that 'disturbs' those who don't like them - oh yes and rotational accuracy. I also think they look timeless, the KD series has a wonderful Zen like appearance.
It also comes with an excellent gimbal arm with sealed for life bearings but also you can fit 3 other arms to the spider legs.
I would urge the OP to either optimise his existing deck or look to buy a better Japanese superdeck that can be renovated simply and economically.. The most expensive t/ts today cannot compete with the quality of engineering or design - what t/t being made today has the simple brilliant ideas of - end of side arm lift and motor turn off like the KD series without in any way compromising performance.
spot on replies. There was a forum in the UK (it still exists) that had an industry professional contributing about 14 years ago. This forum also had some rabid Garrrard fanatics who wanted to attack this man but felt intimidated by his vast professional expertise when he advocated d/d decks.
He presented a list of some of the best of the Japanese 'superdecks'. One of these was the Kenwood KD 990. I saw one on ebay.de and bought it quite cheaply then. It was badly packed, unusual from a German seller and it was dropped in transit.
Unbelievably the only damage was to a corner of the plinth, it played perfectly. I negotiated a refund that made the price @£120. I later bought another one for €350.
I should have replaced all the electrolytics but didn't and both the power caps leaked on the first deck.
I've just purchased 2 x sets of caps of Panasonic FR and the cost is around £6 per deck.
It's bearing system is superb and will with bi-annual Slick 50 oil change last indefinitely. As you say the best of the d/d decks are silent compared to idler/belt drives.
Perhaps it is this silence that 'disturbs' those who don't like them - oh yes and rotational accuracy. I also think they look timeless, the KD series has a wonderful Zen like appearance.
It also comes with an excellent gimbal arm with sealed for life bearings but also you can fit 3 other arms to the spider legs.
I would urge the OP to either optimise his existing deck or look to buy a better Japanese superdeck that can be renovated simply and economically.. The most expensive t/ts today cannot compete with the quality of engineering or design - what t/t being made today has the simple brilliant ideas of - end of side arm lift and motor turn off like the KD series without in any way compromising performance.
It's not just ALPUY's turntable which has a return function! Tourtable Aiwa AP2400 direct drive, year 1982 or Rega RP1 or Pro Ject Debut Carbon
Kinda, it has some sort of speed regulator for DD, which you would lack in those you contemplate.
The platter looks better constructed (thicker, more stable, less resonant and thicker rubber mat) in your Aiwa than the newer ones.
I had an old Dual direct drive which had a nice aluminum platter with a nice mat. I saw the new 'hifi' audio technica 2 days ago and the platter is not nice...
The only thing positive about the rega/project is the attention to newer arms which are engineered with a better sounding technology (this is unproved lol)
DD machines very rarely have a serious suspension to speak of and suffer from an underlying coloration that lurks down under the signal like a submarine trying to avoid depth charges but there non the less.
You might not be aware of an intrusion at first, but having all that torque and serious speed regulation means something has to give and it is why you rarely find DD’s with spring isolation , all you get is meager rubber feet to keep the motor torque from moving the plinth.
There might be just a handful ever made to incorporate serious isolation.
On quiet passages take a rubber mallet and start tapping on the foundation to get an idea where you stand on this compromise
I do own a JVC ql-10 DD and many belt drives TT,s with better suspension isolation and can say the DD adds a slight contrast or zing to the signal.
Some like it that way and are satisfied with tone enhancement
Get a Helix 1 if you want a seriously designed proper TT thats takes all care of all perimeters or at the least put your DD on a Minus k for cheap to understand what keeping the needle quiet does for the sound
This will be an endless thread because of the general nature of the question..
Regards
David
You might not be aware of an intrusion at first, but having all that torque and serious speed regulation means something has to give and it is why you rarely find DD’s with spring isolation , all you get is meager rubber feet to keep the motor torque from moving the plinth.
There might be just a handful ever made to incorporate serious isolation.
On quiet passages take a rubber mallet and start tapping on the foundation to get an idea where you stand on this compromise
I do own a JVC ql-10 DD and many belt drives TT,s with better suspension isolation and can say the DD adds a slight contrast or zing to the signal.
Some like it that way and are satisfied with tone enhancement
Get a Helix 1 if you want a seriously designed proper TT thats takes all care of all perimeters or at the least put your DD on a Minus k for cheap to understand what keeping the needle quiet does for the sound
This will be an endless thread because of the general nature of the question..
Regards
David