I have copied>pasted a description I offered to another Forum's Member working toward upgrading a Sony TTS 8000.
Plinths were being brought into the inquiries.
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The following will offer a guidance on readily available materials that can be sourced from Delignit.
There is 'Panzerholz' - B15 and B25 which has diferences in the Thickness of the materials used on the Teirs and hence thicker layers when fully compressed, as well as more layers per given thickness if B25 is the choice.
After compression B15 will be a 1.8mm down to 0.9mm and B25 will be 1mm down to 0.5mm.
The Board Material 'Festholz' has another added amount of Layers to B25 and both are approx 1400Kg per Cubic Metre.
I will assume it started out at 0.8mm and is compressed to 0.4mm.
There is also the Board Material 'Railfloor', this is coming in at approximately 1000Kg per Cubic Metre and is a Composite.
I do not know the build up of laminations of wood or the compression of the Laminations.
In general a 500mm x 400mm x 20mm Board will be approximately 20Kg.
The Cut out for the Chassis might leave enough Material to consider producing a Tonearm Standalone Pod.
Plinths were being brought into the inquiries.
______________________________________________________________________
The following will offer a guidance on readily available materials that can be sourced from Delignit.
There is 'Panzerholz' - B15 and B25 which has diferences in the Thickness of the materials used on the Teirs and hence thicker layers when fully compressed, as well as more layers per given thickness if B25 is the choice.
After compression B15 will be a 1.8mm down to 0.9mm and B25 will be 1mm down to 0.5mm.
The Board Material 'Festholz' has another added amount of Layers to B25 and both are approx 1400Kg per Cubic Metre.
I will assume it started out at 0.8mm and is compressed to 0.4mm.
There is also the Board Material 'Railfloor', this is coming in at approximately 1000Kg per Cubic Metre and is a Composite.
I do not know the build up of laminations of wood or the compression of the Laminations.
In general a 500mm x 400mm x 20mm Board will be approximately 20Kg.
The Cut out for the Chassis might leave enough Material to consider producing a Tonearm Standalone Pod.
MU 25
Hi JohnnoG,
How thick is your MU 25 plinth? Would you say it sounds about as lively as Birch when you strike it? I may to get around to a damping test on Birch plywoods with other materials soon.
Hugh
Hi JohnnoG,
How thick is your MU 25 plinth? Would you say it sounds about as lively as Birch when you strike it? I may to get around to a damping test on Birch plywoods with other materials soon.
Hugh
Hi Hugh
The MU 25 is a 25mm (1" Inch) Thickness.
Here is something that might be off interest.
One Friend has a SP10 MkII in a B25 P'holz Plinth with the exact same Tonearm as my own, as they have produced it.
A few weeks ago I was able to visit and experience this TT.
I took along and was able to play a long term owned Album, the presentation was thoroughly impressive.
Another Friend has a SP10 Mk II in a Birch Plywood Plinth with the exact same Tonearm as my own.
Out of all Three TT's in use there is not any thoughts that I am aware of that suggests the TT in use is deficient in performance.
Each TT Owner are all quite satisfied, even though the owners of the TT's without a Densified Wood Plinth could say, the Den' Wood is a Material they are interested in aspiring to.
Another friend has a SP10R and a Glanz 12" Tonearm.
The TT is mounted on a 50mm Thick Slab of Aluminium and a Graniite Sub Plinth with a Stand Alone Tonearm Pod.
I listened to the SP10R very recently and was also able to play a long term owned Album, I was thoroughly impressed with the presentation and do not recall one thought that was a question about the replay, with the debut of a Bespoke Built Valve Phonostage and Phasemation Phonostage on the System, there was plenty on offer to make an very positive impression.
The MU 25 is a 25mm (1" Inch) Thickness.
Here is something that might be off interest.
One Friend has a SP10 MkII in a B25 P'holz Plinth with the exact same Tonearm as my own, as they have produced it.
A few weeks ago I was able to visit and experience this TT.
I took along and was able to play a long term owned Album, the presentation was thoroughly impressive.
Another Friend has a SP10 Mk II in a Birch Plywood Plinth with the exact same Tonearm as my own.
Out of all Three TT's in use there is not any thoughts that I am aware of that suggests the TT in use is deficient in performance.
Each TT Owner are all quite satisfied, even though the owners of the TT's without a Densified Wood Plinth could say, the Den' Wood is a Material they are interested in aspiring to.
Another friend has a SP10R and a Glanz 12" Tonearm.
The TT is mounted on a 50mm Thick Slab of Aluminium and a Graniite Sub Plinth with a Stand Alone Tonearm Pod.
I listened to the SP10R very recently and was also able to play a long term owned Album, I was thoroughly impressed with the presentation and do not recall one thought that was a question about the replay, with the debut of a Bespoke Built Valve Phonostage and Phasemation Phonostage on the System, there was plenty on offer to make an very positive impression.
A question for those experienced with Panzerholtz/Permali.
I am looking to build another SP10mk2 plinth from Permali. In order to house the motor mounting housing and a 60mm deep platter the plinth is needs to be 145mm thick. I can source 24mm Permali no problem.
I was considering using 2x 24mm sheets of Permali and laminating MDF in between the Permali to increase thickness, with MDF as a top ring for aesthetics only. The arm and motor mounting layers will be Permali. So the layers will be MDF, Permali, MDF, MDF Permali, MDF, see attached drawing.
This is not CLD it's only to keep weight reasonable so it doesn't crush my rack and cost. Does anyone have experience with this type of construction?
EDIT: I've just noticed the notes didn't print. The grey teardrop section on the right is the plinth
I am looking to build another SP10mk2 plinth from Permali. In order to house the motor mounting housing and a 60mm deep platter the plinth is needs to be 145mm thick. I can source 24mm Permali no problem.
I was considering using 2x 24mm sheets of Permali and laminating MDF in between the Permali to increase thickness, with MDF as a top ring for aesthetics only. The arm and motor mounting layers will be Permali. So the layers will be MDF, Permali, MDF, MDF Permali, MDF, see attached drawing.
This is not CLD it's only to keep weight reasonable so it doesn't crush my rack and cost. Does anyone have experience with this type of construction?
EDIT: I've just noticed the notes didn't print. The grey teardrop section on the right is the plinth
If I am interpreting your diagram correct.
The placing of Permali within the Teirs, is to support the Chassis, and additionally Permali seems to be used to recieve flanges from the TT Housing belonging to the Sub Chassis Housing Parts, using Permali as a mounting Base for the parts with a Flange ?
It also looks like the Base of the TT's Housing is to be seated on a the lowest Teir.
To reduce the mass, and stay closer to the suggestions that are made, as a result of the measured Data, used to support how to produce the best performance from a Densified Wood.
Could a Plinth have a Skirt Surround used to produce the Desired Depth.
Permali Cross Bracings produced to the minimum profile needed can be attached to the Skirts, being used to produce the lower Teirs at the heights shown in the Diagram for the Flanges and Base.
On Lenco Heaven Forum the TTS 8000 Thread will show a Plinth Build that has a similar method as my suggestion.
The placing of Permali within the Teirs, is to support the Chassis, and additionally Permali seems to be used to recieve flanges from the TT Housing belonging to the Sub Chassis Housing Parts, using Permali as a mounting Base for the parts with a Flange ?
It also looks like the Base of the TT's Housing is to be seated on a the lowest Teir.
To reduce the mass, and stay closer to the suggestions that are made, as a result of the measured Data, used to support how to produce the best performance from a Densified Wood.
Could a Plinth have a Skirt Surround used to produce the Desired Depth.
Permali Cross Bracings produced to the minimum profile needed can be attached to the Skirts, being used to produce the lower Teirs at the heights shown in the Diagram for the Flanges and Base.
On Lenco Heaven Forum the TTS 8000 Thread will show a Plinth Build that has a similar method as my suggestion.
There will be 3 bolts upwards (not shown) through the base touching the motor bottom housing to add some tension to prevent vibration. SO the motor will not be touching the bottom layer. The motor mounts to the second layer of Permali it's shown raised slightly as there will be spacers between the motor and wood.
The issue with the TTs 8000 style plinth is the cost of the wasted Permali would be hundreds of $$. Permali is about $200 per layer.
If adding MDF fillers between the Permali will negatively impact sound I'll scrap the Permali and make a mold and cast in resin/bentonite.
The issue with the TTs 8000 style plinth is the cost of the wasted Permali would be hundreds of $$. Permali is about $200 per layer.
If adding MDF fillers between the Permali will negatively impact sound I'll scrap the Permali and make a mold and cast in resin/bentonite.
'to layer or not to layer, that is the question.'
Perhaps these two graphs, showing panel losses, will help you decide:
Permali mdf five layer by cats squirrel
I made the plinth 350mm x 400mm, as my standard plinth model. Also each layer was modelled at 15mm thick, so middle mdf layer as 30mm.
25mm Panzerholz panel losses by cats squirrel
Mmm, bit of a difference...
With the glulam (top one) critical frequency (Fc) is below the fundamental resonance frequency, which means the mass will have no effect! Also, at the Fc, there is amplification, so any songs/tunes in the key of F or any in a key with sharps will be 'enhanced'.
Perhaps these two graphs, showing panel losses, will help you decide:
Permali mdf five layer by cats squirrelI made the plinth 350mm x 400mm, as my standard plinth model. Also each layer was modelled at 15mm thick, so middle mdf layer as 30mm.
25mm Panzerholz panel losses by cats squirrelMmm, bit of a difference...
With the glulam (top one) critical frequency (Fc) is below the fundamental resonance frequency, which means the mass will have no effect! Also, at the Fc, there is amplification, so any songs/tunes in the key of F or any in a key with sharps will be 'enhanced'.
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Thanks CS,
So before I head down the mold and resin/bento path one more question.
The middle MDF layers were for aesthetics only. Instead of the MDF layers being solid, would it make a difference if the MDF was only around the edges as a skirt so the plinth was hollow with Permali bracing between upper and lower layers?
So before I head down the mold and resin/bento path one more question.
The middle MDF layers were for aesthetics only. Instead of the MDF layers being solid, would it make a difference if the MDF was only around the edges as a skirt so the plinth was hollow with Permali bracing between upper and lower layers?
I'm sure it would be better, as mdf is not a nice material for hifi projects. However, the best situation is just one thickness of Permali/Panzerholz, 15mm - 25mm thick. If you wanted to use resin/bentonite, then I would suggest just the resin, not a mix of resin/b and P. If you want a 'skirt', then I would suggest connecting it to just one layer of P (upper or lower, not both). Bracing is not a good idea, as it increases the resonance frequency, and if too much bracing is used, the whole panel acts as though it was the thickness of the bracing+panel.
There is much to commend the two thin panel approach. HTH
There is much to commend the two thin panel approach. HTH
I'm in the planning phase of building another pimped SP10mk2.
What I'm trying to achieve is to house a platter and DD motor that are 155mm from top of platter to bottom of motor housing without having the platter sat high. There is also a gap between the motor mounting flange and bottom of platter of 35mm.
If I use resin/b it will r/b only no P.
You mentioned a two thin panel approach. What's your opinion on 2x 15mm panels with MDF or other timber connecting the 2 together around the edge.
Top panel will mount the arm with a 320mm cutout for the platter and lower panel will mount the motor.
What I'm trying to achieve is to house a platter and DD motor that are 155mm from top of platter to bottom of motor housing without having the platter sat high. There is also a gap between the motor mounting flange and bottom of platter of 35mm.
If I use resin/b it will r/b only no P.
You mentioned a two thin panel approach. What's your opinion on 2x 15mm panels with MDF or other timber connecting the 2 together around the edge.
Top panel will mount the arm with a 320mm cutout for the platter and lower panel will mount the motor.
not mdf, but other (highly damping) stiff material. If you do as you suggest, you have a panel with a clamped edge (actually four clamped edges). That will dictate how the panels will vibrate. However, if you use four 'pillars' to support the top panel, the result will be virtually the same. But I would suggest separating the tone arm (pod) from the turntable. Not so critical with the SP's, but a useful thing to do. It allows easy swapping of tone arms, if that's your thing.
simple plinth by cats squirrel
DO NOT use any soft (compliant) material in the design of the plinth, except underneath the total bottom panel.
simple plinth by cats squirrelDO NOT use any soft (compliant) material in the design of the plinth, except underneath the total bottom panel.
That wild and crazy Panzerholz
Cats Squirrel,
I've had similar results to yours for Vinyl and Acrylic. But I'm finding Panzerholz is a difficult. Maybe it's a good sign...
https://www.monoandstereo.com/2014/11/interview-with-rainer-weber-of-kaiser.html
Rainer Weber has an interesting comment in the above link.
" The young modulus is different in the 3 directions but the density is constant. Therefore the speed of sound is different in each direction leading to a high dispersion of energy so that resonance can not build up so easily. "
I've found that for very soft hammer taps, it does not really break into an oscillation. Hit it hard and it's a very wide spectrum. Somewhere in the middle starts to get close to how other materials behave.
In a plinth, I'm guessing most of the vibration is at lower levels than any of the hammer taps, so it's well behaved.
Hugh
Cats Squirrel,
I've had similar results to yours for Vinyl and Acrylic. But I'm finding Panzerholz is a difficult. Maybe it's a good sign...
https://www.monoandstereo.com/2014/11/interview-with-rainer-weber-of-kaiser.html
Rainer Weber has an interesting comment in the above link.
" The young modulus is different in the 3 directions but the density is constant. Therefore the speed of sound is different in each direction leading to a high dispersion of energy so that resonance can not build up so easily. "
I've found that for very soft hammer taps, it does not really break into an oscillation. Hit it hard and it's a very wide spectrum. Somewhere in the middle starts to get close to how other materials behave.
In a plinth, I'm guessing most of the vibration is at lower levels than any of the hammer taps, so it's well behaved.
Hugh
Hi Hugh,
remember that if vibrations are not readily attenuated, then if instigated by harmonic vibrations (like music or motors) then there will be energy left over from the previous cycle. If this happens, vibrational amplitudes can build, in some cases by quite a significant amount. I seem to remember that some materials with little damping can have the vibrational amplitudes build by 20 times or more.
Hammer taps provide the signal which we can measure (hopefully). Measuring the damping factor of a material provides a first step to choosing appropriate materials (except those who put aesthetics first!).
remember that if vibrations are not readily attenuated, then if instigated by harmonic vibrations (like music or motors) then there will be energy left over from the previous cycle. If this happens, vibrational amplitudes can build, in some cases by quite a significant amount. I seem to remember that some materials with little damping can have the vibrational amplitudes build by 20 times or more.
Hammer taps provide the signal which we can measure (hopefully). Measuring the damping factor of a material provides a first step to choosing appropriate materials (except those who put aesthetics first!).
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Hi CS,
What is your opinion on this version. This uses a 24mm Permali top. The RED is Permali fixed to the underside of the top for motor mounting. The GREY is an MDF skirt for aesthetics and mounting the feet. Or would I better to leave the skirt off and make the 3 motor mounting circles the same size?
What is your opinion on this version. This uses a 24mm Permali top. The RED is Permali fixed to the underside of the top for motor mounting. The GREY is an MDF skirt for aesthetics and mounting the feet. Or would I better to leave the skirt off and make the 3 motor mounting circles the same size?
Attachments
The Method to myself looks similar to other designs I have seen.
Whilst Looking at the Design as a Diagram, I can see one additional option that could be considered.
The Skirt could remain as a Separate Part and maintain the aesthetitic.
The Skirt can have a Footer on the Base and at the interface with the Plinth, a Small Space can be created between the Top of the Skirt and the Plinth using for example a Threaded Spike, or another type of adjustable Support, with any preferred choice of Contact Surface for the Plinth.
This will add another level of control for levelling and Preferred Isolation.
The last choice would be if either the Plinth or the Skirt Wall will have the Female Thread Part inserted to receive the adjustable Male Thread.
Whilst Looking at the Design as a Diagram, I can see one additional option that could be considered.
The Skirt could remain as a Separate Part and maintain the aesthetitic.
The Skirt can have a Footer on the Base and at the interface with the Plinth, a Small Space can be created between the Top of the Skirt and the Plinth using for example a Threaded Spike, or another type of adjustable Support, with any preferred choice of Contact Surface for the Plinth.
This will add another level of control for levelling and Preferred Isolation.
The last choice would be if either the Plinth or the Skirt Wall will have the Female Thread Part inserted to receive the adjustable Male Thread.
Re your comment about compliant material. Does that mean you would not recommend replacing the pillars in that design with 4 squash balls and that you would be better off if the pillars were panzerholz?