You could probably modify a couple of guitar pedals to do this. I might try it tonight.
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It would be very useful if we had some reliable data on the levels and spectra of the noise we are talking about, and how big is its anti-phase component.
I don't really have much to offer here; back numbers of the AES Journal (say 50's to 70's) would be the place to look but my collection only starts in 1983.
As a data-point, when I was developing the Rumble-Gate (a noise gate designed to trigger on the subsonic noise of a record groove so you never missed the start of the music) I found that the peak subsonic level, with both channels sensed and the maximum of the two selected, was about -20 dB ref the music, and sometimes higher. You can read more about this in the new Third edition of Self On Audio, pages 9,13.
I don't really have much to offer here; back numbers of the AES Journal (say 50's to 70's) would be the place to look but my collection only starts in 1983.
As a data-point, when I was developing the Rumble-Gate (a noise gate designed to trigger on the subsonic noise of a record groove so you never missed the start of the music) I found that the peak subsonic level, with both channels sensed and the maximum of the two selected, was about -20 dB ref the music, and sometimes higher. You can read more about this in the new Third edition of Self On Audio, pages 9,13.
My 2 cents. During almost 100 years of vinyl, the people making records (the recorders, mixers, masterers, producers and even the manufacturers of cutting and pressing equipment evolved there methods and machines to make LPs not only technically better but to sound better and better euphonically. They learned to minimize and even use the faults of the medium. I believe when a professional recording engineer put up a mic he adjusted it to sound "right" on vinyl. The other thing people forget about old records is they where recorded on tape. I don't think you can seperate the 2. And again with tape it's use evolved to give better and better sound. ( for years after digital became the studio standard people were still using tape for compression).
And that's only for people who can hear. For most, it's fashionable. When I did my annual penance at the mall this xmas I went int a Urban Outfitters with my 19 year old and they where selling portable cassette players and old but still shrink wrapped cassettes! I started thinking if any one who actually buys these to be cool will care if the tape shed all the frequencies above 1khz off an already terrible medium.
And that's only for people who can hear. For most, it's fashionable. When I did my annual penance at the mall this xmas I went int a Urban Outfitters with my 19 year old and they where selling portable cassette players and old but still shrink wrapped cassettes! I started thinking if any one who actually buys these to be cool will care if the tape shed all the frequencies above 1khz off an already terrible medium.
But… then the obvious would be to make an “efx box” using a low voltage zener at breakdown, amplified, low bandpass filtered to 1 Hz to 15 Hz, with independent–2 channel PB filters. It'd be a pass-thru … variable injection level. Should be possible to synthesize the effect fairly easily. Use really clean summing junction OP amps, selected for 0.01% or better pass-thru distortion.
Dunno… if the effect is real, then it should show up thru such synthesis. The better the amplifier (in our audiophile sense), the lower the infrasound response. Generally. Adding those level changes onto the audible band certainly must have some effect on instantaneous SPL, and thus on our ears' perception of the sound.
Just as no matter how fancy the system, no matter how clean the recording, no matter how “unprocessed” it is (or indeed, heavily processed to try to reproduce the 'live' sound), I have yet - even once - to be awed by “being live” sound. Having mixed hundreds of live events … reproduction just isn't even half there.
Maybe its the smell of burning chicken, spring-roll oil, thousands of people in various states of cleanliness, disrepair, etc. Could be!
But from time to time, I've also been able to inject some really well recorded audio into small stadium concert systems … with the people milling around between sets … and no - its not there.
So, if infrasound helps juice up the vinyl nominally, I see little harm in having such an EFX box between one's CD DAC and at the main system. Especially if “it works”. Might also want to include a separate knob for anti-phase cross-channel leakage too. “Stereo separation enhancement” as marketing material sez. And a 2 pole Bessel band-cut filter with variable Q and center. Why Bessel? All the ordinary reasons: minimum ringing. Softest filtering. Variable poles.
But of course that's all pretty much counter to proper audiophile standards. EVEN THOUGH all of it is applied by the mastering studios, when they are cutting the vinyl and CDs. It is truly amazing just how many times and by how many channels, recordings-for-pressing are sonically "adjusted". Amazing… perhaps a half dozen times for classical orchestra, scores of times for pop.
GoatGuy
And then the loudness wars hit, and almost destroyed the sound of CDs. And remastering the old music to CD usually involved some of this loudness war and obscures some of the best qualities of CDs and makes comparisons difficult. Very confusing for a 20year old music fan, so he just goes with what the crowd says, LPs sound better.
Music is about conveying emotion--from the composer and performer to the listener.
Therefore, musical experience is inherently subjective.
It makes sense, therefore, that Mr. Unwin should find that other aesthetic and cultural factors come into play. Vinyl artwork *is* important to conveying something to the listener even outside the normal aural channels.
Nor is it surprising that ambience-like effects, in vinyl's case, enhance our listening pleasure. Personally, I have noticed this effect as well.
I'm an engineer, so I find measurements important--but they certainly don't tell the whole story.
We actually live in exciting times where both the psychoacoustic and purely electronic worlds can come together to convey new insights and provide new technologies. I'm 100% certain that Vinyl's resurgence is not simply due to hipsters. It's unfortunate that the CD was invented without a complete understanding of these factors. Of course, LP was not created with that knowledge either, but probably is better in an accidental way. That happens.
Maybe a Hegelian type synthesis is desirable?
Randy
Therefore, musical experience is inherently subjective.
It makes sense, therefore, that Mr. Unwin should find that other aesthetic and cultural factors come into play. Vinyl artwork *is* important to conveying something to the listener even outside the normal aural channels.
Nor is it surprising that ambience-like effects, in vinyl's case, enhance our listening pleasure. Personally, I have noticed this effect as well.
I'm an engineer, so I find measurements important--but they certainly don't tell the whole story.
We actually live in exciting times where both the psychoacoustic and purely electronic worlds can come together to convey new insights and provide new technologies. I'm 100% certain that Vinyl's resurgence is not simply due to hipsters. It's unfortunate that the CD was invented without a complete understanding of these factors. Of course, LP was not created with that knowledge either, but probably is better in an accidental way. That happens.
Maybe a Hegelian type synthesis is desirable?
Randy
yes your quite right. which by your own admission and in my view makes vinyl a flawed playback medium. now we have journalists tell us why we like this flawed playback medium....
BTW just to state that i like the sound of vinyl just like i also like the sound of CD and tape or whatever playback medium music is on as i like the sound of music.. and no not the musical.. lol
happy new year when it comes.. and yes i have had a few
I don't think vinyl resurgence is totally because of hipsters, but they seem to have gotten the ball rolling. I think alot of people are coming back to vinyl because it is more available now. Most of my albums were given to me by people trying to get rid of them, or bought at garage sales, because they weren't in stores.
A $100 record player plugged into computer speakers probably does sound amazing to someone who has only listened to mp3s through iPhone Earbuds.
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A $100 record player plugged into computer speakers probably does sound amazing to someone who has only listened to mp3s through iPhone Earbuds.
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Let's not forget that almost every record produced in the past 40 years will have used a digital delay line before the cutting head to allow for on the fly track-width adjustment to accommodate the biggest bass transients. So really there's next to no 'analogue' unless you are talking direct to disc, or early tape-mastered recordings pre 1960 (ish). ( Or that godawful Ben Folds album that was AAA with no delay line.)
So trying to listen for the differences is a bit of a moot point unless you are sure you know the provenance of all the material under test. To completely ignore the entire replay and mastering chain up to to the finished medium just renders the whole test meaningless. But really, who gives a toss what anyone else likes. I'm not looking for a universal truth; If I want the live experience I go to a gig or recital, I don't try and fool myself into thinking I can recreate that at home, no one can, not unless you have a soundboard feed and a PA system.
I don't think anyone is surprised that people can be fooled into thinking they are hearing something they are not, the same goes for many other sensory experiences. Similarly I'm sure you could make people listening to cd believe it was vinyl they were listening to. I have several albums that are produced with 'analogue' noise effects'.
If people state a preference for one format over another it doesn't mean anything. Chances of they aren't even actually aware of the most of the 'drivers' behind their own choices.
So trying to listen for the differences is a bit of a moot point unless you are sure you know the provenance of all the material under test. To completely ignore the entire replay and mastering chain up to to the finished medium just renders the whole test meaningless. But really, who gives a toss what anyone else likes. I'm not looking for a universal truth; If I want the live experience I go to a gig or recital, I don't try and fool myself into thinking I can recreate that at home, no one can, not unless you have a soundboard feed and a PA system.
I don't think anyone is surprised that people can be fooled into thinking they are hearing something they are not, the same goes for many other sensory experiences. Similarly I'm sure you could make people listening to cd believe it was vinyl they were listening to. I have several albums that are produced with 'analogue' noise effects'.
If people state a preference for one format over another it doesn't mean anything. Chances of they aren't even actually aware of the most of the 'drivers' behind their own choices.
well said.
that and listening to their parents hifi and old records due to the all the old bands coming out the closet for their retirement funds. more the merrier i say
a man/woman after my own heart.. or whatever the saying is.. where is that like button when you need it
I agree, I have 5 real record stores within a mile of my place now. No more Best Buy for me.well said.
that and listening to their parents hifi and old records due to the all the old bands coming out the closet for their retirement funds. more the merrier i say
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This is untrue. Digital delays were not available until the early 80's. Groove spacing was controlled by an extra tape head that read the signal early from the two-track tape machine.
Helped along by a little movie that came out last year. I take it you haven't seen it?
jeff
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Because when you set out to fool people, you usually will. It's not all that difficult.
The same way salesmen talk people into buying a $10,000 piece of speaker wire.
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Lets not forget that we listen to music the that we like. It could be vinyl or CD. Since most music is from vinyl era one listens to vinyls. I am sure remastered better versions are available in digital format in the West but here we are not know to preserve and document things. So my main listening to Indian classical and Movie songs is from vinyls as there are few good sounding digital format. I have very few western Classical or rock/pop albums on vinyl. When I buy western music vinyls I listen to them if music is to my liking and sounds good I keep them otherwise I listen to CDs.
Regards.
Regards.
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