buzzford,
One of the questions that comes to mind from your last comment was how much of a difference would be heard if you are not using a high end cartridge such as a moving coil cartridge to listen to your vinyl? I don't have a mega dollar turntable or cartridge at this time, just an old Dual 1219 and a Technics direct drive turntable. One has a rather inexpensive Ortofon mounted and the Dual has an empty headshell right now with a question mark about what I should even use on something like that quality turntable? A super quality RIAA pre may be something that I couldn't even hear given these circumstances?
One of the questions that comes to mind from your last comment was how much of a difference would be heard if you are not using a high end cartridge such as a moving coil cartridge to listen to your vinyl? I don't have a mega dollar turntable or cartridge at this time, just an old Dual 1219 and a Technics direct drive turntable. One has a rather inexpensive Ortofon mounted and the Dual has an empty headshell right now with a question mark about what I should even use on something like that quality turntable? A super quality RIAA pre may be something that I couldn't even hear given these circumstances?
I tread lightly hear, but I think you will hear a difference regardless. In audio, you spend 25% of you r money getting 85% of final performance level. You spend 75% getting the rest. Often times "the rest" is suited to personal taste. I believe all three stages are of a high enough quality that you will be able to fully enjoy them, regardless of the TT and cartridge. As an upside, I believe they will respond to other improvements you might make. IMO, this is a sign of a good piece of equipment, it improves as your system improves. I would love to have your dual. I believe with right effort, you can have a excellent quality vinyl setup using just it and will probably be very pleased as is.
Buzz,
I'm sure you are right about the first 75% is the easiest part and the last 25% can take a lifetime of playing to get that part correct. I'm already fairly far in the respect of the speakers, my own designs, and I think that makes the biggest difference in any component in the system and I have been building some of the amplifiers that OnAudio, Harrison has going on here on his threads. I have some boards to build some active filters and by the time I do all the active crossovers and amps I should be doing fairly well. I have other amps to compare those to so I will know quickly how good they will sound. I'm even considering building some of my horn systems up now that I can do active crossovers and get away from the passive components. It is a bear to use passive components and get time alignment in that mix!
I'm sure you are right about the first 75% is the easiest part and the last 25% can take a lifetime of playing to get that part correct. I'm already fairly far in the respect of the speakers, my own designs, and I think that makes the biggest difference in any component in the system and I have been building some of the amplifiers that OnAudio, Harrison has going on here on his threads. I have some boards to build some active filters and by the time I do all the active crossovers and amps I should be doing fairly well. I have other amps to compare those to so I will know quickly how good they will sound. I'm even considering building some of my horn systems up now that I can do active crossovers and get away from the passive components. It is a bear to use passive components and get time alignment in that mix!
are you referring to Artorius Rex the 1st or Artorius Rex the 2nd?
I think there was about 200 years between them. King Artur used to hang about around Caermellin (yellow fort) which is where the word Camelot comes from. King Artur was buried in Artherton - Arthur's Tomb. Back in the day when the main language in Britain was Welsh.
The Catholic Church and the remnants of the Roman Empire wanted to claim the glory for civilisation and Christianity in Britain. Hence, anyone who talked about King Arthur and Christianity in ancient Britain was liked to be burned as a witch or heretic! And the cover up continues....
this may be a bit off topic!
In my early high school days, the standard amongst the audio "groupies" was a Dual 1226.
(idlers were top of the list then, belt-drive 2nd/too expensive, and DD was for suckers
) One started with something plastic in 1st grade, but to belong, ended up with the common outfit : Dual TT, Superscope receiver, Wharfedale lsp's.
1/2 of the budget for the TT, receiver 1/4th, loudspeakers 1/4th, a cassette-deck was a next stage expenditure.
On a tight budget, the common morning & afternoon break talk was tweaking.
As in placing loudspeakers on 12''x12'' garden tiles, using spikes, cassettes with best performance versus cost was a regular on the parler list.
Ways of upgrading the turntable plus cartridge talk was a main course (after album discussions).
Ranged from making the plinth heavier, sounding it with car bitumen sheet inside, stands, and grease jobs, to arm & cartridge adjustments.
A lot one can do with TT's from that era, within reason (fckng hippies)
that is so interesting....thanks for sharing the story.
This brought back up some of my memories too (maybe mine starts with the CD player era) where we used to rave on some gears back then that now they are not so desired anymore... and talk about tweaks, music, gears and stuff.
There was a lot of passion back then....some of it is gone...just like the desire for jumping and running of a little kid fades away as he grows up!!
This brought back up some of my memories too (maybe mine starts with the CD player era) where we used to rave on some gears back then that now they are not so desired anymore... and talk about tweaks, music, gears and stuff.
There was a lot of passion back then....some of it is gone...just like the desire for jumping and running of a little kid fades away as he grows up!!
The CD player era started with me too, somewhat literally.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/anal...better-turntable-compared-cd.html#post2305307
Jaco,
Yes I remember those days very well. Some of us had the requisite Dual turntables, some Garrard and the adventurous had a Thorens with a linear tracking system while the real Hollywood types had B&O turntables that lit up and looked cool but didn't do much for the sound. Of course this was while there were still Fisher and Mac and Harmon Kardon and other great tube gear to chose from and some of us who were lucky had our Altec or JBL professional home audio speaker systems of the day. I still have a pair of old Altec Barcelona speakers sitting after all these years untouched from back when I was still in high school. Dad said I could pick out the speakers for the house back then and that is what I chose back in the day over the ubiquitous Bose 901's so many others dreamed about. Yes we all had tape recorders of some type, whether a cassette for walking around or the beach or a reel to reel at home. Still have an old Revox A77 sitting on the shelf. My brother in law had the Ampex professional machines as his father was the contractor for all the sound equipment for the original Disney sound systems in the rides. Also where I picked up some old McIntosh tube amplifiers as that was also the original equipment that was used there. Speakers were all Altec in the original rides. Lot's of coaxial drivers that people still buy and trade today.
Yes I remember those days very well. Some of us had the requisite Dual turntables, some Garrard and the adventurous had a Thorens with a linear tracking system while the real Hollywood types had B&O turntables that lit up and looked cool but didn't do much for the sound. Of course this was while there were still Fisher and Mac and Harmon Kardon and other great tube gear to chose from and some of us who were lucky had our Altec or JBL professional home audio speaker systems of the day. I still have a pair of old Altec Barcelona speakers sitting after all these years untouched from back when I was still in high school. Dad said I could pick out the speakers for the house back then and that is what I chose back in the day over the ubiquitous Bose 901's so many others dreamed about. Yes we all had tape recorders of some type, whether a cassette for walking around or the beach or a reel to reel at home. Still have an old Revox A77 sitting on the shelf. My brother in law had the Ampex professional machines as his father was the contractor for all the sound equipment for the original Disney sound systems in the rides. Also where I picked up some old McIntosh tube amplifiers as that was also the original equipment that was used there. Speakers were all Altec in the original rides. Lot's of coaxial drivers that people still buy and trade today.
We shall all agree that the Reel to Reel Tape with a rebuilt preamp is the BEST analogue source.
Anyway...speaking of CD versus Analog…most of the time I don’t agree with who says that Vinyl is better than CD no matter what and I will explain a bit why.
CD player now is not the same back in the days, CDs now are faster, more transparent, more dynamic not to mention the big brother SACD.
These format are a killer in terms of detail, 3D, realm and soundstage.
They are accurate, neutral and don’t need any set up time other than putting the source on 4 spikes or whatever.
Now if we compare that to a cheap TT with a cheap cartridge and a cheap phono, what I find is a colored, slow, unstable sound.
Yes it sounds like analogue so what?
Many time the analogue sound is misunderstood and IMO needs to be reviewed and redefined in terms of what the real live sound is.
Cheap front end won’t give you proper tracking, proper dynamic, SNR and so on and most of all it won’t extract all the information mastered on the vinyl.
Now, the other side of the is that to have a Analogue front end that equals or betters the CD/SACD you will have to spend MUCH more than the equivalent digital brother.
To give some numbers out:
Let’s say your total budget for the FE is $3000 which is not too high nor too low and you want to buy an analogue frontend.
With that you can buy $1500 Turntable tonearm included (most likely a Rega or similar) then you can buy an inexpensive cart for example Ortofon for $500-600 which are very good cartridge or maybe get a lower end dynavector Karat 17d (I think a little more expensive) and then get a $800 phono stage and maybe spending the remaining $50-100 on a dedicated phono cable (maybe get rid of the internal cable of the Rega and put a good one run Cardas wire).
Do you guys think that this will sound better than a $3000 SACD?
In my experience, the above set up won’t be a match for a SACD on that price range they are just too different and offer different performance.
Therefore the question is: how much do I need to spend to better a digital source?
Like I said IMO a pretty high fee, BUT if you get to that analogue that sounds “like” a digital source or in other words where everybody comes at home and wonders:…”is that a vinyl?” that is the Analogue that I consider to be a reference.
It is true you can get analogue sound at any level, but so what? Is that what we all want?
Or we all want to get as close as possible to the live reproduction? Digital has progress greatly and now with $3K you can get a wonderful machine.
At that point I am wondering: is that really worth it to invest on Analogue at a certain price point where you can easily get a better source for cheaper?
I think this is an interesting subject and I would like to know the opinion and experience of the guys here…it is something I am curious about as there are many people that claim that no matter what the analogue rig is there is no digital that can match!
Anyway...speaking of CD versus Analog…most of the time I don’t agree with who says that Vinyl is better than CD no matter what and I will explain a bit why.
CD player now is not the same back in the days, CDs now are faster, more transparent, more dynamic not to mention the big brother SACD.
These format are a killer in terms of detail, 3D, realm and soundstage.
They are accurate, neutral and don’t need any set up time other than putting the source on 4 spikes or whatever.
Now if we compare that to a cheap TT with a cheap cartridge and a cheap phono, what I find is a colored, slow, unstable sound.
Yes it sounds like analogue so what?
Many time the analogue sound is misunderstood and IMO needs to be reviewed and redefined in terms of what the real live sound is.
Cheap front end won’t give you proper tracking, proper dynamic, SNR and so on and most of all it won’t extract all the information mastered on the vinyl.
Now, the other side of the is that to have a Analogue front end that equals or betters the CD/SACD you will have to spend MUCH more than the equivalent digital brother.
To give some numbers out:
Let’s say your total budget for the FE is $3000 which is not too high nor too low and you want to buy an analogue frontend.
With that you can buy $1500 Turntable tonearm included (most likely a Rega or similar) then you can buy an inexpensive cart for example Ortofon for $500-600 which are very good cartridge or maybe get a lower end dynavector Karat 17d (I think a little more expensive) and then get a $800 phono stage and maybe spending the remaining $50-100 on a dedicated phono cable (maybe get rid of the internal cable of the Rega and put a good one run Cardas wire).
Do you guys think that this will sound better than a $3000 SACD?
In my experience, the above set up won’t be a match for a SACD on that price range they are just too different and offer different performance.
Therefore the question is: how much do I need to spend to better a digital source?
Like I said IMO a pretty high fee, BUT if you get to that analogue that sounds “like” a digital source or in other words where everybody comes at home and wonders:…”is that a vinyl?” that is the Analogue that I consider to be a reference.
It is true you can get analogue sound at any level, but so what? Is that what we all want?
Or we all want to get as close as possible to the live reproduction? Digital has progress greatly and now with $3K you can get a wonderful machine.
At that point I am wondering: is that really worth it to invest on Analogue at a certain price point where you can easily get a better source for cheaper?
I think this is an interesting subject and I would like to know the opinion and experience of the guys here…it is something I am curious about as there are many people that claim that no matter what the analogue rig is there is no digital that can match!
I heard good digital sound twice.
One is the Forsell CD Transport and Dac i have and the other was a professional Pacific Microsonics DAC with master tapes.
Both systems are huge and expensive.
I am now working on Computer sound and Curryman build a DAC with my analog output stage that sounded sweet on the Frickelfest.
What i find particular attractive with a system like that is the small size and the low cost.
I think that is the future of Digital, at least for the consumer.
I would definitely not invest in an expensive CD or SACD player any more.
I also think that we will see more active speakers with DSP and some kind of wireless.
The rest goes back to Vinyl and tape, high efficiency speakers and eventually tubes although i thing that solid state has very good potential too if it is done right.
I think digital is forbidden in such a system.
As for me i design phono stages so i do my listening 90% with vinyl.
One is the Forsell CD Transport and Dac i have and the other was a professional Pacific Microsonics DAC with master tapes.
Both systems are huge and expensive.
I am now working on Computer sound and Curryman build a DAC with my analog output stage that sounded sweet on the Frickelfest.
What i find particular attractive with a system like that is the small size and the low cost.
I think that is the future of Digital, at least for the consumer.
I would definitely not invest in an expensive CD or SACD player any more.
I also think that we will see more active speakers with DSP and some kind of wireless.
The rest goes back to Vinyl and tape, high efficiency speakers and eventually tubes although i thing that solid state has very good potential too if it is done right.
I think digital is forbidden in such a system.
As for me i design phono stages so i do my listening 90% with vinyl.
Stefano,
The farthest that I am willing to step into that discussion is to say that listening to a vinyl album or listening to a cd are two different listening experiences. There are just things on an album that you just won't find on a cd from the past, or if you do they have been remastered to such a point that is just doesn't even sound like the same recording. Reel to reel was something that we had in the past but I would find it hard to imagine that many still have any old tapes and those that remain are usually in fairly poor to unusable condition after 40 years if they aren't master tapes and even then that is often the case. So you can't just go back to the masters and record a cd that has the original content preserved.
When you listened to an album and looked at the artwork and read the lyrics that was a treat in itself. Having to get up every 20 or so minutes to turn over an album or change it was a part of the process that kept you involved in the music. I'm not so sure that many of the newer high dollar turntables are needed? Do I really need a 20 or 30 lb. platter with separate motor and all the fancy parts to listen to my albums, or is a good turntable with a decent tonearm and nice cartridge good enough for the medium? I think there are plenty of well recorded cd's to listen to but I also think that some of them are terrible the way they are recorded, utter dreck with no dynamic range and tunes thrown in just to fill the cd with music. Think about the fact that on an album you only had about 45 minutes of play time with both sides together and now we have much more than an hours time to fill with music. I think the musicians thought more about what they were going to put on those albums than what we get today.
These are just the opinions of a now older listener, but I just want to enjoy both mediums to the best that I can without spending all my disposable income on trying to make it sound like something I will enjoy. I don't need to have multi gigabytes of music on my phone recorded in MP3 format so I can walk around with ear buds stuck in my head all day.
The farthest that I am willing to step into that discussion is to say that listening to a vinyl album or listening to a cd are two different listening experiences. There are just things on an album that you just won't find on a cd from the past, or if you do they have been remastered to such a point that is just doesn't even sound like the same recording. Reel to reel was something that we had in the past but I would find it hard to imagine that many still have any old tapes and those that remain are usually in fairly poor to unusable condition after 40 years if they aren't master tapes and even then that is often the case. So you can't just go back to the masters and record a cd that has the original content preserved.
When you listened to an album and looked at the artwork and read the lyrics that was a treat in itself. Having to get up every 20 or so minutes to turn over an album or change it was a part of the process that kept you involved in the music. I'm not so sure that many of the newer high dollar turntables are needed? Do I really need a 20 or 30 lb. platter with separate motor and all the fancy parts to listen to my albums, or is a good turntable with a decent tonearm and nice cartridge good enough for the medium? I think there are plenty of well recorded cd's to listen to but I also think that some of them are terrible the way they are recorded, utter dreck with no dynamic range and tunes thrown in just to fill the cd with music. Think about the fact that on an album you only had about 45 minutes of play time with both sides together and now we have much more than an hours time to fill with music. I think the musicians thought more about what they were going to put on those albums than what we get today.
These are just the opinions of a now older listener, but I just want to enjoy both mediums to the best that I can without spending all my disposable income on trying to make it sound like something I will enjoy. I don't need to have multi gigabytes of music on my phone recorded in MP3 format so I can walk around with ear buds stuck in my head all day.
I will open soon a thread of how to DIY a very good turntable.
We already have the arm playing. It is based on the well Tempered and i think it is improved and easy to make without much machinery.
The bearing is also made. Again very simple without liquid or oil.
We have a brass platter where we will put a POM or PEAK record mat.
We also have a motor, at this time DC but we may find another solution.
We already have the arm playing. It is based on the well Tempered and i think it is improved and easy to make without much machinery.
The bearing is also made. Again very simple without liquid or oil.
We have a brass platter where we will put a POM or PEAK record mat.
We also have a motor, at this time DC but we may find another solution.
I was CD/SACD guy. Brother was SACD/Vinyl guy, with vinly being main player. I finally got him to drop his tube phono stage and replaced with Simplsitic and Paradise, and now I only listen to CD because it is what I have. His vinyl rig is wonderful and very invloving. It is not super expensive, Sota table, dunnno the arm, Ortofon Bronze cartridge. I could easily stop with it and never sweat a change. I do enjoy server FE for ease of use and you can enjoy really good music that way.
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Kindhornman,
I see what you are saying, you are talking about the enjoyment of artwork and vinyl’s ritualistic.
That is pretty nice however for someone who wasn’t born on the vinyl’s era, on the flip side, it could be seen as annoying having to change side, making sure vinyl is in perfect alignment and that vinyl is cleaned etc etc…so as you can see the glass can be half full or half empty.
Speaking of music, there is more refined new music pressed on digital than on vinyl.
LPs are mainly reissues of old music and you won’t find new music. For instance all demo discs that you can see at audio show mainly are digital.
Choral or particular acoustic music I would love to have.
However the main focus of my post was on quality.
You can still enjoy vinyl if you really like just to listen to certain onld music that hasn’t been reissued in digital but keep in mind that old vinyl don’t sound good AT ALL.
They are compressed and usually material used is bad noisy not a match for new pressings where premium material used and also full analogue cutting with new machine and modern hi-end studio recording equipment.
That makes a TON of difference.
So for the only point of quality I don’t see vinyl getting close to an equivalent digital source unless you get very good rigs from TT, Arm, Cartridge, Phono and dedicated cable for the arm to the phono.
I see what you are saying, you are talking about the enjoyment of artwork and vinyl’s ritualistic.
That is pretty nice however for someone who wasn’t born on the vinyl’s era, on the flip side, it could be seen as annoying having to change side, making sure vinyl is in perfect alignment and that vinyl is cleaned etc etc…so as you can see the glass can be half full or half empty.
Speaking of music, there is more refined new music pressed on digital than on vinyl.
LPs are mainly reissues of old music and you won’t find new music. For instance all demo discs that you can see at audio show mainly are digital.
Choral or particular acoustic music I would love to have.
However the main focus of my post was on quality.
You can still enjoy vinyl if you really like just to listen to certain onld music that hasn’t been reissued in digital but keep in mind that old vinyl don’t sound good AT ALL.
They are compressed and usually material used is bad noisy not a match for new pressings where premium material used and also full analogue cutting with new machine and modern hi-end studio recording equipment.
That makes a TON of difference.
So for the only point of quality I don’t see vinyl getting close to an equivalent digital source unless you get very good rigs from TT, Arm, Cartridge, Phono and dedicated cable for the arm to the phono.
Yes Server with Digital music was a big step forward in both quality and easy of use.
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