You definitely don't want to use Triton X-114. It might be popular in air-conditioned, room temperature vacuum record cleaning formulations, but once it gets above 23*C = 73*F, it is NOT soluble in water (cloud point temperature). Therefore it is absolutely the wrong detergent to use in a heated, or even mildly warm, ultrasonic bath. Detergents work best below their cloud point temp.
X-100's cloud point temp is about 65*C, or about 150*F, so it would still be soluble in a 115*F ultrasonic bath.
Cheers,
B B
Zg,
When I do use a wetting agent, which is maybe half the time lately, it's photo flo --- just a couple of drops per tank at most. I'm finding it's usually not needed to get good cleaning results.
What drives this decision for me is the following: at my cleaning temp, does my purified water + IPA combination bead up on the record or not? If it beads up a lot, a few drops of photo-flo helps wetting. But isopropyl on its own in the water usually gives me enough wetting action. Perhaps this is a function of the water being used, and purity of the particular IPA being used, so your mileage may very. It seems to vary for me a little batch to batch.
Also, I am probably a little more receptive to a little bit of water beading on an LP now, than I was originally. I find I can shake off straggler drops pretty easily.
Much of this is dependent on one's specific techniques for rinsing and drying. I like purified water and IPA since they leave 0 residue in principle due to complete evaporation. Surfactants/detergents often have an ingredient or two that can leave a residue, so I believe in using low concentrations of them if they are needed, so that risk is kept to a minimum. But I do think it's OK to use small amounts when they are truly serving a purpose in washing, rinsing or drying.
Cheers,
B B
When I do use a wetting agent, which is maybe half the time lately, it's photo flo --- just a couple of drops per tank at most. I'm finding it's usually not needed to get good cleaning results.
What drives this decision for me is the following: at my cleaning temp, does my purified water + IPA combination bead up on the record or not? If it beads up a lot, a few drops of photo-flo helps wetting. But isopropyl on its own in the water usually gives me enough wetting action. Perhaps this is a function of the water being used, and purity of the particular IPA being used, so your mileage may very. It seems to vary for me a little batch to batch.
Also, I am probably a little more receptive to a little bit of water beading on an LP now, than I was originally. I find I can shake off straggler drops pretty easily.
Much of this is dependent on one's specific techniques for rinsing and drying. I like purified water and IPA since they leave 0 residue in principle due to complete evaporation. Surfactants/detergents often have an ingredient or two that can leave a residue, so I believe in using low concentrations of them if they are needed, so that risk is kept to a minimum. But I do think it's OK to use small amounts when they are truly serving a purpose in washing, rinsing or drying.
Cheers,
B B
Hi All
I have read through the majority of this thread sine signing up and I wanted to know if anyone was aware of anyone else selling an 80hz (or 69hz) pre built machine like Vibrato LLC?
I've signed up to the tindie mailing list if Vibrato get any more in stock. Reason for this is I have zero tools to build my own plain and simple. I am UK based and was about to order the cleaner vinyl solution actually before reading about these chinese imports and the 40 vs 60 debate.
Really I just want great sounding records again as the noise on some of my supposed NM vinyls is driving me nuts.
I have read through the majority of this thread sine signing up and I wanted to know if anyone was aware of anyone else selling an 80hz (or 69hz) pre built machine like Vibrato LLC?
I've signed up to the tindie mailing list if Vibrato get any more in stock. Reason for this is I have zero tools to build my own plain and simple. I am UK based and was about to order the cleaner vinyl solution actually before reading about these chinese imports and the 40 vs 60 debate.
Really I just want great sounding records again as the noise on some of my supposed NM vinyls is driving me nuts.
As much as I would love to have a Vibrato or Sonix unit I just can't afford one right now. The Mrs has given me the go ahead for a max of $160 which I guess means one of the ones on ebay from China. They seem to range from $110 to $200...and they all look basically the same. Is there any difference between them that does not meet the eye?
HA,
Sonix IV has affordable 60 khz machines here in the States, available with drain and heater. I don't think the Vibratos have a drain. I like a drain because I like using a recirculating filter setup to extend the life of my cleaning solution during a given cleaning session.
Elma is Europe-based and should be easy for you to find, although you pay for the dual frequency capability (37k and 80k) and high quality of the P60H unit, which is a fantastic machine.
Tuttnauer makes a 3 gallon machine, CSU3, at 60khz, that would provide more space to do some interesting setups.
You can find some great used machines at good prices by searching lab equipment marketplaces or university equipment disposition sites online. This takes some sleuthing and persistence, but I've seen some good deals.
Good luck,
B B
Yes, there are differences. Many are terrible, some aren't, and you can't tell by appearance or advertising copy. In many cases, a machine that outwardly looks the same as another and even has the same nameplate, can often be made in different factories, using different internal parts. One might be great, the next might be terrible. I know this to be true, because I buy various medical devices and processing equipment from China, and they are quite open about this inability to specifically identify where stuff is made.
Despite specs that say "40khz" there is an economic incentive (i.e. lower cost of parts) to make 20khz machines. Buyer beware.
Good luck,
B B
Thanks BB
DO you know if these all come with the device that rotates the vinyls?
As I say I have absolutely no way to build this on my own I am 100% reliant on someone else building this for me I have perhaps a hammer and some screwdrivers LOL
I'm a bit useless with DIY myself but would love an Elma unit if I could only get round to building a suitable spindle....
Anyone in the Bavarian region got a kind heart?
Now that we have the LPs rotating in the tank ... what about a drying method (to replace leaving them in a dish-rack to dry - which takes too long!)?
I bought a "Dryer Cube" from Ultrasonic Records and while I think the concept of a 6-sided box to dry a spindle-full of LPs in, is a good idea ... I think David's execution of the concept can be improved upon.
The Dryer Cube is a 5-sided box with a lid that you can put on and take off. There are slots in the middle of each side - so the spindle with the LPs on that was in the tank, can be lifted off and slotted into the Dryer Cube box. Then you put the lid on.
There is a powerful fan at one end of the box ... and a vent at the other - so a strong stream of air passes over the LPs.
It seemed to me that it would be better if the LPs were rotating in this stream of air - so I rigged up a 1rpm motor to engage the gear on the spindle (which engages the gear on the motor on the Ultrasonic Records' tank stand, which holds the spindle).
But I'm thinking a better way of drying, inside the box, would be to have a gentler stream of warm air.
So What do people suggest for a heating element to go at the base of the box?
Doing the maths for our 240v mains, I'm thinking 24x 10ohm / 10w ceramic wire-wound resistors, arranged in a string between active & neutral should give off a reasonable amount of heat that will not be great enough - given the associated breeze from the fan - to start warping the vinyl? The leads on this string of resistors would be soldered together and the soldered joints would rest on 1/2" metal PCB-standoffs, screwed to the base of the box.
Andy
Why not get a record doctor rcm for doing the drying? Compared to other rcm units (vpi, etc) they are dirt cheap at under 200 USD. I have one and it will suck a cat through a keyhole. It is essentially a nitty gritty unit without the huge price and hardwood sides.
I figure that if we need to do a separate rinse and wash anyway, why not use an inexpensive rcm to do it.
Just my 2 cents....
I figure that if we need to do a separate rinse and wash anyway, why not use an inexpensive rcm to do it.
Just my 2 cents....
Yes, I (like others, including Harry from VPI) follow up ultrasonic cleaning with a rinse or two with a vacuum RCM. I have noticed some genuine improvement when following ultrasonic cleaning with vacuuming. Sometimes the ultrasonic cleaning process dislodges muck that collects in a spot or two on the record (leading to a loud pop when playing), but doesn't always get it all the way out of the grooves, and the vacuum process takes care of that. Yes, this is contrary to bbftx's original goal of avoiding any physical contact with the grooves, but in the end, the combination of the two seems to have the best overall results.
I did recently pick up an Okki Nokki due to being fatigued by the excessive noise and labor-intensive process of the KAB EV-1 that I've used since I started this hobby, but you really don't need to spend much for the vacuuming process. Harry of VPI uses a Cyclone (of course), but the KAB EV-1, SqueakyCleanVinyl RCM, or Record Doctor are all perfectly adequate for not a lot of money. You can certainly DIY something if you have the energy and time (I ran out of that, thus the Okki Nokki), but you need to weigh the cost of time against the cash savings.
I did recently pick up an Okki Nokki due to being fatigued by the excessive noise and labor-intensive process of the KAB EV-1 that I've used since I started this hobby, but you really don't need to spend much for the vacuuming process. Harry of VPI uses a Cyclone (of course), but the KAB EV-1, SqueakyCleanVinyl RCM, or Record Doctor are all perfectly adequate for not a lot of money. You can certainly DIY something if you have the energy and time (I ran out of that, thus the Okki Nokki), but you need to weigh the cost of time against the cash savings.
Aah, OK, Packgrog - that is very interesting about the commonly held view that you need to follow up ultrasonic cleaning with a rinse or two, with a vacuum RCM. Do you mean by that, that you should:
* take the US-cleaned LP out of the tank
* lay it down and put distilled water onto the surface(s) - however your wet/vac RCM does this
* and then vacuum the liguid off (as normal)?
I have used a NG for over 20 years but the whole point of going to a US machine, for me, was to have a method of cleaning which did not involve physical contact - and enabled multiple LPs to be cleaned simultaneously.
From your explanation of why a rinse & vacuum after is a good idea (Sometimes the ultrasonic cleaning process dislodges muck that collects in a spot or two on the record (leading to a loud pop when playing), but doesn't always get it all the way out of the grooves, and the vacuum process takes care of that.) ... can I assume that if I don't hear any pops after US cleaning then all the dust has gone from the grooves? I wonder if people who experience the problem you describe are using a 40Khz m/c - not a 60Khz m/c?
Thanks,
Andy
It's not surprising the VPI group was promoting a follow-up cleaning with a vacuum RCM. VPI makes vacuum RCMs, so they want to try to avoid becoming obsolete!
I have a VPI, and I don't notice any additional benefit from using it after ultrasonic cleaning.
Cheers
B B
Thanks B B ... all true!
So what do you think about my concept (given I have bought a 'Dryer Cube') of creating a heat source, so warm air is blown over the LPs on the spindle, to dry them?
Thanks,
Andy
Hey Andy,
You need a fan and a heater. I wouldn't mess with resistors and wiring when cheap UL approved devices exist already.
There are many inexpensive options, including an old hair dryer or something adjustable and reliable like this for $15:
Pelonis NT20-12D Ceramic Safety Furnace, 1500-watt
Slap something like this on one end of your box, blowing through a 12x12 hvac allergen filter into the box with a vent on the far side. Heck, the filter will probably cost more than the heater-blower.
B B
You need a fan and a heater. I wouldn't mess with resistors and wiring when cheap UL approved devices exist already.
There are many inexpensive options, including an old hair dryer or something adjustable and reliable like this for $15:
Pelonis NT20-12D Ceramic Safety Furnace, 1500-watt
Slap something like this on one end of your box, blowing through a 12x12 hvac allergen filter into the box with a vent on the far side. Heck, the filter will probably cost more than the heater-blower.
B B
OK Andy,
I found the lazy man's, non-DIY option. Just buy a food dehydrator. All in one, easy to find the right size box to hold LPs, with fan, heater with adjustable thermostat, and timer for less than $100:
Food Dehydrator
Best,
B B
I found the lazy man's, non-DIY option. Just buy a food dehydrator. All in one, easy to find the right size box to hold LPs, with fan, heater with adjustable thermostat, and timer for less than $100:
Food Dehydrator
Best,
B B
Thanks, B B.
All good thinking. I have ordered a pack of those allergen filters but I need to see if I can find one of those Pelonis heaters here in Oz (for 240v).
But I think I will experiment first, with wifey's hair dryer.
Andy