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My version of an Ultrasonic Record Cleaner
My version of an Ultrasonic Record Cleaner
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Old 18th December 2017, 02:14 AM   #1821
GTHICM is offline GTHICM  United States
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Send a message via AIM to GTHICM My version of an Ultrasonic Record Cleaner
I have a 1 micron filter and it does not seem to filter out Triton or Hepastat 365 either. I have rinsed out the filter several times and it does not seem to be retaining the cleaners at all.
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Old 23rd December 2017, 08:22 PM   #1822
BendBound is offline BendBound
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I've been reading this forum with intense interest because I want to find better ways to clean my vinyl records. The work here on ultrasonic options is most encouraging. I've seen how the systems have evolved going back to the beginning of the thread such that no short term negative impacts are now noted to an USC'ed vinyl record.

My inquiry also considers the long term impacts, however. So with this note, I wanted to ask the earliest adopters to comment on changes IF ANY, to records cleaned say 10 years ago, if folks have that long of a history. If not then I would like to know if your earliest US cleaned lps have shown any signs of change.

I ask because I am concerned that subjected to high frequency waves whether or not the surface of polyvinyl chloride, used to stamp records, is somehow compromised but the impacts are not manifest until later, perhaps years later. That manifestation may be in the form of oxidation, in spots deep in the grooves, leading to increased surface noise. I'm not saying it is, I'm just asking folks to comment on their experience and observations.

Pleas see this abstract:

"The use of high intensity ultrasound to promote a number of reactions at the surface of solid poly(vinyl chloride) is reported. Substitution reactions involving a range of compounds, including dyes, can rapidly be carried out from aqueous solution under labile conditions. Sonochemically enhanced treatment with strong aqueous base produces dehydrochlorination even at room temperature to produce a thin layer of conjugated material at the surface which can then be grafted with a number of compounds. Some speculation as to the mechanistic features of the process as well as its potential utility is made. (C) 1999 Society of Chemical Industry.

From:

Surface modification of poly(vinyl chloride) using high intensity ultrasound
. Available from: Surface modification of poly(vinyl chloride) using high intensity ultrasound

I've asked the author today for a copy of the article.

Some of you have mentioned seeing a white substance in the grooves after USC. That could be from a chemical alternation of PVC at the surface, making it liable later to oxidation. I don't know, I'm just researching and I am not trying to throw cold water on the great results reported here using US to clean records. But I want to be careful since I adhere to the dictum, do no harm.

I've seen 1 micron filters too after say 75 to 85 lps have been cleaned. The filters are light brown and the natural assumption is that color is all from loosed dirt. But has anyone done a chemical composition test to see if it is not also PVC, some of which could be PVC dust that contaminated the pressed lp? That is the core of my inquiry. I want to make sure that USC of my record collection is completely safe. Unfortunately, as a scientist, I like proof.

Thank you in advance for letting me know you observations.
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Old 23rd December 2017, 09:21 PM   #1823
bbftx is offline bbftx  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BendBound View Post
My inquiry also considers the long term impacts, however. So with this note, I wanted to ask the earliest adopters to comment on changes IF ANY, to records cleaned say 10 years ago, if folks have that long of a history. If not then I would like to know if your earliest US cleaned lps have shown any signs of change.

I ask because I am concerned that subjected to high frequency waves whether or not the surface of polyvinyl chloride, used to stamp records, is somehow compromised but the impacts are not manifest until later, perhaps years later.

Pleas see this abstract:

"The use of high intensity ultrasound to promote a number of reactions at the surface of solid poly(vinyl chloride) is reported. Substitution reactions involving a range of compounds, including dyes, can rapidly be carried out from aqueous solution under labile conditions. Sonochemically enhanced treatment with strong aqueous base produces dehydrochlorination even at room temperature to produce a thin layer of conjugated material at the surface which can then be grafted with a number of compounds. Some speculation as to the mechanistic features of the process as well as its potential utility is made.

From:

Surface modification of poly(vinyl chloride) using high intensity ultrasound
. Available from: Surface modification of poly(vinyl chloride) using high intensity ultrasound
Hi Bend
That article has nothing to do with ultrasonic cleaning. They aren't cleaning, the authors are TRYING to change chemical and physical properties of PVC powder to find ways to color, dye or change the physical properties of PVC objects made from the PVC powder used in the experiments. They are looking for ways to manufacture PVC that would instill certain characteristics in the material that might be useful in different applications.

They are using naphthalene-or anthracene- containing compounds in attempt to graft compounds onto the PVC and change the surface characteristics through chemical reactions. The PVC was put in these very reactive, sonic baths for 1 hour at a time. Unless you're using naphthalene or anthracene in your cleaner, you have nothing to worry about.

I've been doing this for years without any issues.
Cheers,
B B
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Old 23rd December 2017, 11:03 PM   #1824
BendBound is offline BendBound
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Thank you bbtx, and I thank you in particular for your pioneering work on USC DIY projects this forum thread features. That article I posted may not have been the best choice. I've done quite a bit of looking to ensure myself that no issues exist. I assume then that your oldest USC lps are pristine, or at least that is what I gather from your response.

In this piece, I see some discussion of changes that may or may not impact a vinyl record, but have impact to polyvinyl Chloride: http://scs.illinois.edu/suslick/docu...nrevmatsci.pdf.

This 1999 article is entitled, "Applications of Ultrasound to Materials Chemistry," by Kenneth Suslick and Gareth Price. Here is part of the conclusion...

Bubble collapse in liquids results in an enormous concentration of energy from the conversion of the kinetic energy of liquid motion into heating of the contents of the bubble. The enormous local temperatures and pressures so created provide a unique means for fundamental studies of chemistry and physics under extreme conditions.

Cavitation in liquids can have dramatic effects on the reactivities of both extended solid surfaces and fine-powder slurries. Microjet and shockwave impact (on large surfaces) and interparticle collisions (with powders) have substantial effects on the chemical composition and physical morphology of solids that can dramatically enhance chemical reactivity of both organic polymers and inorganic solids.

The extreme conditions inside collapsing bubbles produce highly reactive species that can be used for various purposes, for instance, the initiation of polymerization without added initiators. As another example, the sonochemical decomposition of volatile organometallic precursors in high-boiling-point solvents produces nanostructured materials in various forms with high catalytic activities.

Okay, so as I read that I see that ultrasonic energy can impact surfaces because the implosion involves, as a stylus does too, intense burst of heat and pressure. The article discusses the scale. But also, the research indicated that dramatic effects on reactivity was possible. Part of the reason is that the extreme conditions inside collapsing or as I say imploding bubbles produce highly reactive species. So the core inquiry relates to changes in chemistry of the PVC that may make it susceptible to chemical degradation, such as oxidant, over time.

There are newer articles that I have not read because I don't want to pay for them. One example is the article entitled, "Treatment of Polyvinyl Chloride Using Ultrasonic Irradiation" bu Hidetoshi Sekiguchi, Zuhaidi Bin Abdullah and Toru Ikezaki1 as published on May 1st, 2003 in the The Japan Society of Applied Physics. There are a number of articles too that deal with the impact to polyvinyl chloride in solution, where US energy breaks that molecular chains. But that is not likely an issue with the solid of an lp.

I'm likely worried about nothing, but I want to conduct my due diligence.


Last edited by BendBound; 23rd December 2017 at 11:32 PM.
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Old 23rd December 2017, 11:45 PM   #1825
bbftx is offline bbftx  United States
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In every study you’ve mentioned by name, the goal is to modify PVC raw material chemistry and/or physical characteristics, not clean finished goods. Ultrasound is used for lots of processes in materials science and material engineering other than cleaning.

An analogy would be saying you shouldn’t wash anything with water, because water jets under high pressure can cut through steel. No, you need to use the water the right way and there will be no problems.

Ultrasound used the right way is the same, it won’t cause problems in a mild cleaning application. To be safe, don’t use aggressive, reactive chemicals, don’t leave the records in the bath for an hour, and don’t use too much power at frequencies below 35k or so. The desktop machines that most everyone is using in this thread aren’t terribly powerful and no one I’ve seen is using oxidative chemicals or reagents like naphthalene.
BB

Last edited by bbftx; 23rd December 2017 at 11:55 PM.
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Old 24th December 2017, 12:42 AM   #1826
BendBound is offline BendBound
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Thank you.
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Old 24th December 2017, 01:43 AM   #1827
BendBound is offline BendBound
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbftx View Post
This distributor still lists the 60 khz Sonix machine in the $600-700 range depending on features. This is a good deal in my opinion:

Sonix IV 60 khz 6L Cleaner

Cheers,
B B
I called them yesterday. They no longer have this option, don't stock it, could not tell me if they would ever get them again.
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Old 24th December 2017, 04:55 AM   #1828
Zg925 is offline Zg925  United States
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Vibratto has 60K for sale. Vibrato 60KHz 6 Quart Ultrasonic Cleaner from VibratoLLC on Tindie
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Old 24th December 2017, 05:18 AM   #1829
BendBound is offline BendBound
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Originally Posted by Zg925 View Post
Vibratto has 60K for sale.
Thank you. That is my option number one. But no drain. So I'm considering a larger tank model, 60 kHz, but with a drain.

Has anyone made the filter system work on a model with no drain?
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Old 24th December 2017, 05:23 AM   #1830
lexx21 is offline lexx21  United States
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My version of an Ultrasonic Record Cleaner
Bendbond.....were it me, I would go to a restaurant supply store and purchase a filter holder for deep fat fryers and a box of filters for it. Dump the liquis through the filter and Bobs your uncle.
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