Just bought a Stanton 380 Fluxvalve magnetic stereo cartridge. I would guess it to be somewhere in the vicinity of 50yrs old. These are massively heavy cartridges which track at 3gms and above. (Range 3 - 7gms!) Mine is installed somewhat uncomfortably in my SME 3009 Series II arm as a lark. The stylus is ancient. I'm tracking it at 4gms. Set up is tricky because it apparently needs an angled headshell or an arm that has a wider range of VTA setting than my arm. Despite this it is playing.. Not trusting it to my good records. It should work fine in my Schick (not here yet) as an alternative to the ZU when I want that "mellow vintage sound" 
Performance is better than I expected. It's big, very energetic, and powerul. Midrange is pretty lush and warm.. Highs are present, but subdued. There is a little air here and there. Imaging is ok, soundstage mediocre with little depth at all. There is undoubtedly some significant mid bass bloat as well. It's not the most detailed cartridge seeming not to go very far back into the soundstage, but nothing is obviously missing either. There might be more resolution here than is immediately apparent.
Stylus geometry results in a remarkable amount of tracing noise.. It also does a phenomenal job of reproducing cutter rumble - it is very audible when present.
Overall it is a strangely comfortable and undemanding sort of sound. Not analytical, but sort of organic in an oddly limited way.
Obviously there are other interesting cartridges like the Shure M3D, M7D, etc. Wondering if anyone else is playing around with ancient cartridges, and we all known (hopefully) that the vintage Ortofon SPU is in another league.
Obviously I am planning on eventually acquiring an SPU to use with the Schick. A friend has recently introduced me to the joys of collecting vintage cartridges. Fun!
Performance is better than I expected. It's big, very energetic, and powerul. Midrange is pretty lush and warm.. Highs are present, but subdued. There is a little air here and there. Imaging is ok, soundstage mediocre with little depth at all. There is undoubtedly some significant mid bass bloat as well. It's not the most detailed cartridge seeming not to go very far back into the soundstage, but nothing is obviously missing either. There might be more resolution here than is immediately apparent.
Stylus geometry results in a remarkable amount of tracing noise..
It also does a phenomenal job of reproducing cutter rumble - it is very audible when present. Overall it is a strangely comfortable and undemanding sort of sound. Not analytical, but sort of organic in an oddly limited way.
Obviously there are other interesting cartridges like the Shure M3D, M7D, etc. Wondering if anyone else is playing around with ancient cartridges, and we all known (hopefully) that the vintage Ortofon SPU is in another league.
Obviously I am planning on eventually acquiring an SPU to use with the Schick. A friend has recently introduced me to the joys of collecting vintage cartridges. Fun!
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I should mention that my ZU/Denon DL-103 is considerably better having just switched back. The DL-103 of course is relatively contemporary to the Fluxvalve I mentioned in my last post..
Mine is less than a year old, but the DL-103 has been in continuous production more or less unchanged since 1962..
Mine is less than a year old, but the DL-103 has been in continuous production more or less unchanged since 1962..
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I guess the question I would have is whether you're hearing the cartridge the way it was originally intended to sound. Back in my vinyl days I always found that cartridges would "go south" after a certain period of time, even when the styluses hadn't accumulated a lot of hours. I was under the impression that suspensions tended to go off and this was the cause of the problem. Now, if you're talking about a 50 yr old cartridge, I have to question whether the rubber suspension components are still any good at all or whether everything has hardened to the point where the damping is way off from where it was originally. As for the popularity of the old Shures like the M3 or M7, I have to confess I don't get it. I still remember my move from my M3D to the then new M91ED and ultimately the V15 II. The later cartridges were night and day better, especially in tracking ability.
I used to use record turntables on a disco in the 1980's.
I f i remember correctly they were BSF turntables with ceramic cartridges.
The two turntablkes fitted inside a cabinet supplied by Maplin.
The pre amps were a Maplin kit too along with the 225WRMS amplifier.
Finished off with 4 off 50watt Fane speakers.
It used to be fun if the floor wasnt very steady, had to use 2p on the cartridge head to get them to track OK.
I f i remember correctly they were BSF turntables with ceramic cartridges.
The two turntablkes fitted inside a cabinet supplied by Maplin.
The pre amps were a Maplin kit too along with the 225WRMS amplifier.
Finished off with 4 off 50watt Fane speakers.
It used to be fun if the floor wasnt very steady, had to use 2p on the cartridge head to get them to track OK.
I plan to get a new stylus for the Fluxvalve as oddly someone in Japan is still making replacement styli for these cartridges. I figure that some of the performance issues I heard might be ameliorated with a new stylus. My experience back in the day closely parallels yours. I figure the rubber must have hardened in the current stylus as it is of indeterminate age, and it looks quite old, possibly original. It works however and better than I expected probably because of the obscene tracking force it was designed for. It's compliance is even lower than the Denon which is significant.
The design of the cartridge body makes it quite hard to use on arms like the SME which does not have sufficient VTA/arm height adjustment range to accommodate the odd offset of the body against the head shell.. With insufficient care in set up the rear lower end of the cartridge can hit the record surface..
I too had an M3D I inherited in the early 1970s from my Dad when I bought him a Dual table to replace his old Garrard. I was a teenager at the time and quickly replaced it with a new Shure, and later a Goldring which was even better. I have to admit the M3D sounded very good at the time and I am not sure with a new stylus installed that replacement Shure even matched it, but it was new and hence had to be better. So out it went. The Japanese revere this cartridge which now gets my attention since I have what is quintessentially a system using many of the same pieces the Japanese chase fervently. Asian friends have commented on this.. I do like resolution and probably have a system using many of the same odds and ends but ends up sounding not at all similar.. Still...
So I pay attention. I'm actually going to acquire an M3D at some point.
I have a later Stanton which while over 40 seems nothing special, it doesn't have the energy or verve of that early Fluxcalve..
The Zu/Denon though wins hands down. It is less forgiving and much more resolving, and much more neutral. I hope the eventual Soundsmith retip is actually an improvement. The others I have are toys to trot out for fun, for serious listening the Denon is top choice.
Anybody into vintage cartridges?
Absolutely NOT. My 1961 AR turntable came with an ADC cartridge that I promptly (1970) put a new stylus in. It would not track high velocity records like LP's produced by ATCO or ABC 45's. The sound would shatter. Reading Audio, Stereo Review, etc, I bought a Grado FTE about 1971. Much better, but the diamond broke after 5 years. I bought a Shure M97 FE about 1982 and am not looking back. It is better in all respects, sound and tracking ability. Since it is stil in production, I may buy another one for the new rubber. I still am using the 1961 Dynakit PAS2 preamp with new caps and resistors, and re-equipped the 1961 ST70 yesterday with new output tubes.
Absolutely NOT. My 1961 AR turntable came with an ADC cartridge that I promptly (1970) put a new stylus in. It would not track high velocity records like LP's produced by ATCO or ABC 45's. The sound would shatter. Reading Audio, Stereo Review, etc, I bought a Grado FTE about 1971. Much better, but the diamond broke after 5 years. I bought a Shure M97 FE about 1982 and am not looking back. It is better in all respects, sound and tracking ability. Since it is stil in production, I may buy another one for the new rubber. I still am using the 1961 Dynakit PAS2 preamp with new caps and resistors, and re-equipped the 1961 ST70 yesterday with new output tubes.
Your Shure M97 probably qualifies as near vintage since it is pushing 30yrs of age..
Not sure ADC would be considered to be in the same league as the sorts of cartridges I was thinking of when I started this thread.
No question that time has marched on, but there are survivors from that era soldering on today, some like the Denon DL-103 and Ortofon SPU are still in production after something like 50yrs.
The ancient fluxvalve incidentally has no problems tracking anything in IMVLE and others who use these cartridges report much the same thing. They have a distinctive and big sound quality that I don't hear from modern cartridges along with quite a bit of euphony as well. (Not sure what the cartridge's potential is until I replace the stylus.) I've had several modern Grados and came to the conclusion after living with them for about six years that I am not a fan of that sound, trackability aside. (Last was a Platinum Reference)
FWIW all the rubber bits that degrade in a typical MM type are in the stylus assembly and replacing the stylus with a suitable replacement should restore full performance. So I would check with Jico and see if they have styli for your M97 rather than buying potentially shoddy current cartridge production. (Check VE for details on Shure cartridge quality control issues.)
My only other modern cartridge is a modestly priced Audio Technica AT120-E/T which performs well enough in its role on a secondary table.
The XLM in a low-mass arm could give a pretty good account of itself.
Hmmm, haven't seen responses from Deccaphiles.
Back before CD I used Decca Cartridges.
I had a Decca Blue - rebuilt by Van den Hull. That was stunning.
I then had a Decca Gold - rebuilt by The Garrott brothers.
The Garrott brothers were twins who married twin sisters. They all committed suicide together. It still gives me shudders when I look at their signatures on the certificate that came with the cartridge.
The Decca is a very interesting configuration, basically being a mono coil with 2 more added coils. These are wired together in a sum and difference configuration to get the stereo output. The cantelever was vertical and tied back with a cord.
The 'speed' of the sound from the Decca was exceptional with very good dynamics.
Remember this was back before digital loudness wars destroyed dynanic range!
All that and the cartridge was plastic in a folded aluminium folded box with a removable lid.
The Van den Hull rebuild also involved stuffing the tin box with dampening material that looked suspiciously like blu-tak.
Trying to work up the courage to rework my last Decca London Mk 5. Have historically replaced the stiff plastic armature restraint with a piece of silk thread, mounted a 0.010" thick 0.1" X 0.1" piece of cured silicone glue on the armature top bar and cut away portions of the clamp surfaces, to limit reflections from reentering the armature from the nylon body. After rework they track at 1.0 grams in a linear tracking arm and sound sensational.... until the diamond finally snaps or the armature finally breaks due too the release from tension during the change over in restraint.
Bud
Bud
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I'm a big fan of some of the older cartridges.
I have a Grace F9R that is currently in use, and occasionally swap it out to try other MM carts I have including A&R E77 and Empire 3000 Phase IV.
As for MC, I own an Accuphase AC-2 which (due to an accident whilst dusting) now needs to be retipped. Its a great MC cartridge and I'll have to do something about getting it fixed.
Chris
I have a Grace F9R that is currently in use, and occasionally swap it out to try other MM carts I have including A&R E77 and Empire 3000 Phase IV.
As for MC, I own an Accuphase AC-2 which (due to an accident whilst dusting) now needs to be retipped. Its a great MC cartridge and I'll have to do something about getting it fixed.
Chris
This may be a little pedestrian to some, but a cartridge that I've kept around since the early '80's (it may go back further) is the Stanton 881. Like the Shure V series, it tracks well, doesn't offend, and when compared to much more expensive pickups, makes one wonder about value (in the great scheme of things). I'm not quite sure why Stanton never caught on with the frugaphile(tm) crowd like the Shures and AT's of the world.
Because it is not all that great sounding? At least -- in the day -- compared to a Grado at a 1/3 the price.
dave
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