Hello Bruno
Just read your story about your motor for a better understanding did you revise the motor with new sinterbushings and do you know the ser.nr. from your 124. What do you mean with middle panel compressing exactly.
Regards Volken
Hi Volken, all,
Please don't quote the previous post unless you want to draw attention to something in particular. Then quote only that section.
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-Chris
Please don't quote the previous post unless you want to draw attention to something in particular. Then quote only that section.
To quote a segment, just copy and paste the section you want, then highlight it and then click on the quote balloon, far right at the top of the message bar.
example:
Like that.
-Chris
Hi Volken,
Serial number is 68.563. It's a MkII
Sintered bushings have not been changed.
There's been a misunderstanding on my part, the middle panel does not compress. It must have been some light effect or maybe I was hallucinanting lol. The motor does seem to be running cooler after loosening the bolts tough ( they were really tight), but the problem still persists. Strobe readings show a slight decrease in speed after an hour or 2 altough less evident than before. I understand this is due to motor temperature increases. Is this related to worn sintered bushings exclusively? (they look pretty good to me, fit is tight). Nothin to do with excessive voltages, damaged coils?
Motor looks strong. I get full speed in 1/2 revolution from cold starts, and no signs of friction. I make sure it runs completely silent with alignment. Oil is 3 in one sae 20 btw. Coast down times when turned of without belt are decent. Any help would be very appreciated and thanks in advance
Serial number is 68.563. It's a MkII
Sintered bushings have not been changed.
There's been a misunderstanding on my part, the middle panel does not compress. It must have been some light effect or maybe I was hallucinanting lol. The motor does seem to be running cooler after loosening the bolts tough ( they were really tight), but the problem still persists. Strobe readings show a slight decrease in speed after an hour or 2 altough less evident than before. I understand this is due to motor temperature increases. Is this related to worn sintered bushings exclusively? (they look pretty good to me, fit is tight). Nothin to do with excessive voltages, damaged coils?
Motor looks strong. I get full speed in 1/2 revolution from cold starts, and no signs of friction. I make sure it runs completely silent with alignment. Oil is 3 in one sae 20 btw. Coast down times when turned of without belt are decent. Any help would be very appreciated and thanks in advance
You need to do a complete motor overhaul. I recommend replacing the sintered bearings with sintered bearings from Audiosilente.
Getting the bearings properly aligned and the housing evenly tightened down is critical. These motors are a bit tricky to get running right, oddly enough the older versions of the E50 seem to be a bit less fussy. (I have a MKII and a 124.) I've wondered for a while if this is partly due to the coil design, those are available too..
I would recommend contacting Hanze HiFi for a complete motor rebuild if you want a top shelf motor for your table. (Volken can't make that recommendation, but I can and do.)
Getting the bearings properly aligned and the housing evenly tightened down is critical. These motors are a bit tricky to get running right, oddly enough the older versions of the E50 seem to be a bit less fussy. (I have a MKII and a 124.) I've wondered for a while if this is partly due to the coil design, those are available too..
I would recommend contacting Hanze HiFi for a complete motor rebuild if you want a top shelf motor for your table. (Volken can't make that recommendation, but I can and do.)
Hi guys :Wave2:
Found something interesting!
I decided to run a little experiment this last 2 days
I've been timing platter spin down times after 5 minutes of usage and then an hour later (right after the strobe markings become 100% stable)
These are the results:
Day 1
5 minutes in: 43 seconds.
60 minutes later: 38 seconds.
Day 2 (colder ambient temperature)
5 minutes in: 47 seconds
60 minutes later: 42 seconds
So despite room temperature changes, spin down times are reduced by 5 seconds time after time.
This isolates the issue to the main Platter.
Kevin,
Motor is fine, bushings look great, they have been completely removed of old oil and relubed in the oven. This time I carefully torqued the screws one at a time and aligned the motor for quietest and freest rotor running.
Next thing I will do is get new main bearing bushings, polish the spindle and make sure the platter is 100% centered to minimise friction (0,1 mm runout is not enough). I'm confident this will fix the problem!
Found something interesting!
I decided to run a little experiment this last 2 days
I've been timing platter spin down times after 5 minutes of usage and then an hour later (right after the strobe markings become 100% stable)
These are the results:
Day 1
5 minutes in: 43 seconds.
60 minutes later: 38 seconds.
Day 2 (colder ambient temperature)
5 minutes in: 47 seconds
60 minutes later: 42 seconds
So despite room temperature changes, spin down times are reduced by 5 seconds time after time.
This isolates the issue to the main Platter.
Kevin,
Motor is fine, bushings look great, they have been completely removed of old oil and relubed in the oven. This time I carefully torqued the screws one at a time and aligned the motor for quietest and freest rotor running.
Next thing I will do is get new main bearing bushings, polish the spindle and make sure the platter is 100% centered to minimise friction (0,1 mm runout is not enough). I'm confident this will fix the problem!
Depends if you are planning to run the well wet, I just lubricate periodically and expect some seepage which I wipe off.
The assemblies in both of my tables have always leaked and I no longer worry about it.
Neither of my tables have thrust bearings in the wells and I wonder if that is a potential area of improvement. I believe some people are using them, and hopefully Volken will weigh in with an opinion.
I gave up long ago on fixing all of the problems with these machines, but they give good service and perform fairly well. Just keep it properly lubricated.
The assemblies in both of my tables have always leaked and I no longer worry about it.
Neither of my tables have thrust bearings in the wells and I wonder if that is a potential area of improvement. I believe some people are using them, and hopefully Volken will weigh in with an opinion.
I gave up long ago on fixing all of the problems with these machines, but they give good service and perform fairly well. Just keep it properly lubricated.
What was the outcome?
I replaced the bushings in one of my two tables, hopefully you know the OD of the bearing because all of the housings across the production run are not the same and loose fitting bushings, or ones you can't press in without distortion are the likely outcome if you are unlucky.
Hi everybody,
I joined this site like 3 years ago, always for reading/learning. This is my first message here.
I got hold of a 124 mk1 a couple of years ago and during these time I've been reading and ordering parts but I never dared to go for it, it's been only a few weeks ago when I finally started to disassemble the tt for cleaning, oiling, upgrades etc...
Mine's a very early mk1 with nylon bushings. The only upgrade I'm doing out of the sacred path is installing iglide iglidur J bushings (I ordered the iglidur M as well) in the main bearing isntead of oilite ones. The rest is the usual mk1 to mkII motor suspension upgrade, new end cap a thust pad for the bearing well, silicon nitride balls, new mirror, new wires, resistor, capacitor, strobe lamp, new oils that got from Fred hifi years ago and a heavy slate plinth (60x50x5cm) for 2 tonearms.
Getting the pulley out of its shaft was really tricky, the set screws went out smoothly but the pulley was totally glued to the shaft. Simone from audiosilente was of big help, I ordered a few parts from him. Still have to work on the motor assembing, too much friction I'm afraid.
A few days ago I disassembled the on/off/speed selector knob and everything's else undenearth for cleaning. The set screws inside the knob were so old (mine is from 1958) that both got broken inside. I really sweat to take them out without damaging the knob. I think I read once that it's diameter is 3mm. Since I don't have a proper caliper, tried to seized it with a rule and with the phone but wasn't sure, so ordered a little box with different set screws sizings. The one that matched my old ones was 4x6mm. But the thing is that when I tighten them, they don't reach the bushing the are supposed to reach, so the knob is sliding instead of switching on/off or changing speed.
The question is if anyone knows the exact size of these set screws. Could it be that they are 3.5mm x 6mm?
I attach a pic of the knob Im' referring to, the new screw which doesn't work and the original one (black with a broken part)
Julian-
I joined this site like 3 years ago, always for reading/learning. This is my first message here.
I got hold of a 124 mk1 a couple of years ago and during these time I've been reading and ordering parts but I never dared to go for it, it's been only a few weeks ago when I finally started to disassemble the tt for cleaning, oiling, upgrades etc...
Mine's a very early mk1 with nylon bushings. The only upgrade I'm doing out of the sacred path is installing iglide iglidur J bushings (I ordered the iglidur M as well) in the main bearing isntead of oilite ones. The rest is the usual mk1 to mkII motor suspension upgrade, new end cap a thust pad for the bearing well, silicon nitride balls, new mirror, new wires, resistor, capacitor, strobe lamp, new oils that got from Fred hifi years ago and a heavy slate plinth (60x50x5cm) for 2 tonearms.
Getting the pulley out of its shaft was really tricky, the set screws went out smoothly but the pulley was totally glued to the shaft. Simone from audiosilente was of big help, I ordered a few parts from him. Still have to work on the motor assembing, too much friction I'm afraid.
A few days ago I disassembled the on/off/speed selector knob and everything's else undenearth for cleaning. The set screws inside the knob were so old (mine is from 1958) that both got broken inside. I really sweat to take them out without damaging the knob. I think I read once that it's diameter is 3mm. Since I don't have a proper caliper, tried to seized it with a rule and with the phone but wasn't sure, so ordered a little box with different set screws sizings. The one that matched my old ones was 4x6mm. But the thing is that when I tighten them, they don't reach the bushing the are supposed to reach, so the knob is sliding instead of switching on/off or changing speed.
The question is if anyone knows the exact size of these set screws. Could it be that they are 3.5mm x 6mm?
I attach a pic of the knob Im' referring to, the new screw which doesn't work and the original one (black with a broken part)
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Julian-
As a point of interest I took my main bearing apart to renew the year old thrust plate which from inspection from the top of the well looked horrible.
Upon disassembly the dimple was far smaller than it looked but I was going to flip it over and reuse all the parts. I have the thick brass cap with the raised center. Instead, I cleaned off the gasket with electrical cleaner, added a drop of Super Glue gel and slapped a sapphire thrust plate onto the center of the gasket. I then reassembled the bearing, added 25 drops of 3'n 1 oil and spun it up to 33.33 RBM. It took 3 minutes and 30 seconds to come to a complete halt! I finished reassemling the motor unit back in the plinth and am listening to it as I type this.
Just a proof-of-concept type of thing. I didn't even try and center the disc carefully, just made sure it was reasonably centered in the well. I don't know if the disc/gasket interface will hold up or whether the stock ball will tolerate the sapphire thrust plate.
Will update.
Upon disassembly the dimple was far smaller than it looked but I was going to flip it over and reuse all the parts. I have the thick brass cap with the raised center. Instead, I cleaned off the gasket with electrical cleaner, added a drop of Super Glue gel and slapped a sapphire thrust plate onto the center of the gasket. I then reassembled the bearing, added 25 drops of 3'n 1 oil and spun it up to 33.33 RBM. It took 3 minutes and 30 seconds to come to a complete halt! I finished reassemling the motor unit back in the plinth and am listening to it as I type this.
Just a proof-of-concept type of thing. I didn't even try and center the disc carefully, just made sure it was reasonably centered in the well. I don't know if the disc/gasket interface will hold up or whether the stock ball will tolerate the sapphire thrust plate.
Will update.
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Sapphire is very hard and the ball might wear in a month or so. No real problem as the ball can be tapped round. If a fixed point I wouldn't recommend this. Graphite is an idea. Vacuum cleaner brushes are a cheap source. With graphite a ball shaped cup forms. Long rotation of a bearing is sometimes a false indication. The very low cost Garrard SP25 bearing would seem supurb on a long rotation test. It was a noisy bearing really. If 3 in 1 is replaced with ATF it should be slightly superiour. SAE 30 or 20 non additive oils will cause drag. That should sound better as oil drag dominates stylus drag. More bass perhaps. The belt causes some torque loss. Drag slightly tensions the belt. Tape decks used a small differential pulley speed to overcome similar effect. Drag is not friction. The TD 124 magnetic brake also helps.
Thanks Nigel. I have to say in the few dozen hours of running the speed stability has improved. The speed locks on within 15 seconds or so and doesn't change during the day as it did with the stock set-up. The coast down time is impressive with an increase by a third the time it used to come to a stop. The only question will be longevity. How will the surfaces hold up? Do you know the ball diameter in the main bearing? Maybe I'll order a few SiNi bearings from Boca Bearing.
As I said if it doesn't work out the ball can be be reused. Thorens were very intelligent in the design of the bearing. With minimal attention and some oil you can't kill it. For all that it's an high spec type. Their choice of ball bearing might be special. Linn used a carborundum thrust by 3M polished to a mirror finish. As hard as sapphire at a guess.
Hi All
my first post here on this excellent thread.
I have two 124 IIs in pretty good working order altho i have continually worked on reducing rumble.
I had not used one for over a year becos i sold the arm that was on it. I hve now put on a new Jelco 850.
Realised that the oil had leaked out the main shaft cylinder - now a few yrs ago the thrust pad ws replaced with a stainless steel one (from Mirko I think).
Anywys i have been advised that noise / rumble from 124s can come from stepped pulley bushings.
The idlers on both my 124s were replaced and are both still good.
So i ordered and have received from Simone of Audiosilente new brass thrust pads and new bushings for stepped pulley ( 2 sets of each).
I will be able to do the thrust pads but I am hesitant to take on the stepped pulley bush Simone includes a tool to extract/insert the bushes.
His instructions seem good for someone who know what they need to do.
I need extra help
Any advice here will be most welcome.
I also need to replace the capacitor on each tt. Can someone give me the exact link to a suitable part. I can solder but I am no good with the specifications.
Much obliged .
my first post here on this excellent thread.
I have two 124 IIs in pretty good working order altho i have continually worked on reducing rumble.
I had not used one for over a year becos i sold the arm that was on it. I hve now put on a new Jelco 850.
Realised that the oil had leaked out the main shaft cylinder - now a few yrs ago the thrust pad ws replaced with a stainless steel one (from Mirko I think).
Anywys i have been advised that noise / rumble from 124s can come from stepped pulley bushings.
The idlers on both my 124s were replaced and are both still good.
So i ordered and have received from Simone of Audiosilente new brass thrust pads and new bushings for stepped pulley ( 2 sets of each).
I will be able to do the thrust pads but I am hesitant to take on the stepped pulley bush Simone includes a tool to extract/insert the bushes.
His instructions seem good for someone who know what they need to do.
I need extra help
Any advice here will be most welcome.
I also need to replace the capacitor on each tt. Can someone give me the exact link to a suitable part. I can solder but I am no good with the specifications.
Much obliged .
I replaced mine with a 275VAC 0.01uF X2. This:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
You won't have problems finding them.
As for the knob set screws, I'll answer myself and confirm they are 3,5mm diameter, not that easy to source nowadays, at least here. Had to ordered them abroad, still haven't arrived, so in the meantime I made a temporary fix on the old ones to go ahead with the restoration.
I have two issues at this point:
The iddler wheel doesn't make contact with the stepped pulley at the 16rpm possition. Anyways this is not urgent cause i'm not playing anything at that speed in the near future.
After alligning the motor the best i've been able for less freezing, it turns out that the turntable runs a bit faster than it should, no matter how I play with the fine speed. This is a problem.
Motor has new bearings from Simone. I did't put the new felt pads cause they are too thick and don't fit well, so i cleaned and reused the old ones. The oil is one I got from Fred hi-fi a while ago, a green and thick one, but no idea about exact specs.
In the beginning I couldnt get more than 5 seconds of free spinning after switching off (pulley without belt). After 2h running the motor was so hot that you couln't touch it for more than 1 second. I think my motor is an early version, one that runs hotter than subsequent revisions, one that will never run at only 45ºC under any circunstance, but anyways I wasn't happy with the performance and dissasembled it again, cleaned thoroughly the rotor and polished it a bit and spent quite a time with the manual allignment.
After my best effort I achieved 11 seconds of free spinning (without belt) with the motor cold and 20 seconds after 1 hour when the oil is hot. The motor still runs hot but not as much as before. Pulley speed (without bell) around 1410rpm in cold conditions, and with the belts on (i have 2), 1390rpm with the 36cm lenght one (this one could be the original one but I'm not sure) and 1375rpm with a 34cm lenght and a bit wider one. Even with this last belt mounted and the brake to the max the turntable runs too fast. Is this normal?
Maybe I have to work on the eddy brake. Or maybe it's better to follow the advise of those who claim that this motor was designed to work at 200V 50Hz, and nowadays we have 230V 50Hz in Europe, so that could explain this issue. Could be a voltage regulator the solution to this and, in that case, do you know a model that works silent and feeds a stable 200V to the thorens without spending the big bucks some ask for?
There are so many things that influence the speed of the this table it is ridiculous.
Make sure that you have at least 20wt - 22wt oil in the spindle bearing.
You will need to adjust the brake.
The belt thickness is critical, too thick and it will run too fast all the time. I recommend you get belts from Hanze Hi-Fi. (Volken here)
The table was actually designed primarily for the North American market (surprised?), the European nominal at the time this table was designed was 220V. Set to 200 - 250V range.
I have a TD-124 with a Papst 3 phase motor running on 3 phase power and a TD-124MKII with the E50 motor running single phase, when I rebuilt it it ran way too fast. Currently I am running it on 110V from a sine wave source I designed and built eons ago. Lowering the voltage a bit can help both heat and over speed.
Make sure that you have at least 20wt - 22wt oil in the spindle bearing.
You will need to adjust the brake.
The belt thickness is critical, too thick and it will run too fast all the time. I recommend you get belts from Hanze Hi-Fi. (Volken here)
The table was actually designed primarily for the North American market (surprised?), the European nominal at the time this table was designed was 220V. Set to 200 - 250V range.
I have a TD-124 with a Papst 3 phase motor running on 3 phase power and a TD-124MKII with the E50 motor running single phase, when I rebuilt it it ran way too fast. Currently I am running it on 110V from a sine wave source I designed and built eons ago. Lowering the voltage a bit can help both heat and over speed.
Thanks Kevin.
Yes, I didn't know it was designed for NA market. Very surprised.
The oils I think are fine, at least the guy I got them from seems to have experience with the turntable (fred hi-fi). It was a kit with two oils (a green one for the motor and antoher one for the bearings). The second belt I have comes from this kit, it's around 34cm lenght, 6mm width and thickness I'd say it's almost 1mm, maybe a bit less 0.9mm.
The tt is happier with the other belt, the old one, around 36cm lenght, 5mm width and a bit thinner than the newer one, I'd say around 0.7mm. Less noise and friction. But too fast, with both of them. I'll take a look at Hanze's belt, but I think this is not only because of the belt. What you said at the very end "Lowering the voltage a bit can help both heat and over speed." I feel is the way to go. Who wants an overheated motor?
And I'll read a bit about the eddy brake too. It's one of the things I never touched.
Yes, I didn't know it was designed for NA market. Very surprised.
The oils I think are fine, at least the guy I got them from seems to have experience with the turntable (fred hi-fi). It was a kit with two oils (a green one for the motor and antoher one for the bearings). The second belt I have comes from this kit, it's around 34cm lenght, 6mm width and thickness I'd say it's almost 1mm, maybe a bit less 0.9mm.
The tt is happier with the other belt, the old one, around 36cm lenght, 5mm width and a bit thinner than the newer one, I'd say around 0.7mm. Less noise and friction. But too fast, with both of them. I'll take a look at Hanze's belt, but I think this is not only because of the belt. What you said at the very end "Lowering the voltage a bit can help both heat and over speed." I feel is the way to go. Who wants an overheated motor?
And I'll read a bit about the eddy brake too. It's one of the things I never touched.
and a few pics of the work so far... (I think you need to open the pic in a new window so as to watch it)
Before
After
with the new plinth
Before
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
After
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
with the new plinth
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.