Hi all,
I have inherited an old DUAL 1010 Turntable on which I recently successfully restored the audio-connections (see other thread).
During the restoration I noticed that a lot of the grease on the bearings has dried out, so I'd like to re-lubricate the turntable. I also think I have to re-adjust some screws to completely fix the table, according to the service manual.
But first things first: re-lubricating. In the service manual, 5 different types of lube are specified, but, as you might expect, most of them don't exist anymore. I looked around on the internet (google, dual-reference.com etc...), found some substitutes, but also found lots of discussions about what to do, what not to do, what to use and what not to use, so I thought to ask it myself (italic = suggested in the service manual, bold = substitute)
- Fine bearing oil (such as Shell AB11) for motor bearings and sintered bearings: well, most of the discussions are about this motor oil. Should I use synthetic oil or just "natural" motor oil? Most sites and resources seem to suggest synthetic motor oil (10W30 or 10W40)
The thing is, my motor seems to run quiet well, doesn't slow down, doesn't produce strange noises, so I'm not really sure if I should change the oil. And if I should, I don't exactly know where to put the oil, the motor seems like a closed piece of gear (see picture).
- thicker, non-gumming oil (such as Calypsol WIK 700) for sliding and bearing points: I can't seem to find a substitute for this one and I'm pretty sure I have to re-lubricate the bearing and sliding points, since the oil has dried out. Any suggestions?
- adhesive oil (such as Renotac) for the turntable and drive wheel: Renotac no 342 should do the job I guess, not sure if I have to lubricate these parts, but it doesn't seem very hard so I might as well do it.
- molykote paste G (or equal) for points where greater pressure and friction occur: this is something I also really need to do (especially on the main cam where the grease has completely dried out (see pic)), but I'm also not sure about a substitute for this one...
Of course before I apply any new oil I'm going to clean of all the existing grease (as suggested on dual-reference.com)
Since it's the first time I'm going to do this, any help would be more than welcome! Thanks in advance!
S.
I have inherited an old DUAL 1010 Turntable on which I recently successfully restored the audio-connections (see other thread).
During the restoration I noticed that a lot of the grease on the bearings has dried out, so I'd like to re-lubricate the turntable. I also think I have to re-adjust some screws to completely fix the table, according to the service manual.
But first things first: re-lubricating. In the service manual, 5 different types of lube are specified, but, as you might expect, most of them don't exist anymore. I looked around on the internet (google, dual-reference.com etc...), found some substitutes, but also found lots of discussions about what to do, what not to do, what to use and what not to use, so I thought to ask it myself (italic = suggested in the service manual, bold = substitute)
- Fine bearing oil (such as Shell AB11) for motor bearings and sintered bearings: well, most of the discussions are about this motor oil. Should I use synthetic oil or just "natural" motor oil? Most sites and resources seem to suggest synthetic motor oil (10W30 or 10W40)
The thing is, my motor seems to run quiet well, doesn't slow down, doesn't produce strange noises, so I'm not really sure if I should change the oil. And if I should, I don't exactly know where to put the oil, the motor seems like a closed piece of gear (see picture).
- thicker, non-gumming oil (such as Calypsol WIK 700) for sliding and bearing points: I can't seem to find a substitute for this one and I'm pretty sure I have to re-lubricate the bearing and sliding points, since the oil has dried out. Any suggestions?
- adhesive oil (such as Renotac) for the turntable and drive wheel: Renotac no 342 should do the job I guess, not sure if I have to lubricate these parts, but it doesn't seem very hard so I might as well do it.
- molykote paste G (or equal) for points where greater pressure and friction occur: this is something I also really need to do (especially on the main cam where the grease has completely dried out (see pic)), but I'm also not sure about a substitute for this one...
Of course before I apply any new oil I'm going to clean of all the existing grease (as suggested on dual-reference.com)
Since it's the first time I'm going to do this, any help would be more than welcome! Thanks in advance!
S.
For a start, its always best and once for all time, ensure all the areas or parts you intend to re-lubricate with alternate lubricants are all surgically clean as possible.
Take your own sweet time to do all this for a perfect job. Dried or gummed up grease MUST be entirely removed.
Lightest synthetic motor lube is quite suitable for motor bearings.
Silicone grease or grease specifically meant for moving plastic parts are very suitable.
Spindle bearing lube may need further research as some specify gear lube, some specify machine oils (without all those motor lube additives suited for combustion engine)
Take your own sweet time to do all this for a perfect job. Dried or gummed up grease MUST be entirely removed.
Lightest synthetic motor lube is quite suitable for motor bearings.
Silicone grease or grease specifically meant for moving plastic parts are very suitable.
Spindle bearing lube may need further research as some specify gear lube, some specify machine oils (without all those motor lube additives suited for combustion engine)
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The best solution is to give the application engineers at Shell a call, and ask for the equivalent of the lubricants specified in the user manual.
As Cool wrote, make sure that everything is ultra clean, before applying a new type of lubricant.
White grease???? You really have to up your standards here. White grease can be just about anything. It's like saying that any food is just "food".
Magura
As Cool wrote, make sure that everything is ultra clean, before applying a new type of lubricant.
White grease???? You really have to up your standards here. White grease can be just about anything. It's like saying that any food is just "food".
Magura
The best solution is to give the application engineers at Shell a call, and ask for the equivalent of the lubricants specified in the user manual.
As Cool wrote, make sure that everything is ultra clean, before applying a new type of lubricant.
White grease???? You really have to up your standards here. White grease can be just about anything. It's like saying that any food is just "food".
Magura
Really?
I've seen it on a couple of sites, so I thought it was not just about anything, but really something specific (kinda new to this ). Well, it's a brand from a local DIY-hobby-shop, says (in Dutch): White Grease. For lubrication. Heat and water resistant. Can be used to grease bearings, springs, locks, chains, gliding parts, mechanical parts etc... So it seems pretty ok. It's not really that thick I've noticed (tried it on a spare metal part), but I don't know if that's a problem. It also says it should not be exposed to temperatures higher than 50°C but I don't think the temperature on the gliding parts will be that high?The thing is: I've been searching for quiet a while now; oils: no problem, but good grease is pretty hard to find. Went to 3 (large) DIY-stores, eventually went to a HONDA-dealer and he had some black, thick grease, but the man behind the counter thought it would be too thick. I didn't see the brand, think it was ceramic grease. The original turntable-grease was molykote, but it seems they only sell to companies.
So that's why I hoped my white grease would be ok enough
Or should I go for the thicker, black (unknown-brand) grease from the Honda-dealer?The original grease used by Dual was Shell Alvania #2. A superior substitute is Nye Rheolube 368-AX1. I was looking for a sub for the Shell product in the early 90's and when I called Nye and talked to an engineer, he said they had something better. It was the first time I found ANYBODY who even _knew_ of Shell Alvania #2. It isn't cheap but it IS better than Shell. I've insisted on it at work to replace Sony SGL. IIRC the motor oil was Isoflex PDP-40. Nye Oil II is a synthetic oil at least as good as Isoflex. The viscous damping oil was Wacker Siliconoil 500,000 (it's been a long time since I worked on a table). I don't know of a sub for this.
First time tearing down a turntable? Take LOTS of digital pix before you start. Back in the day I would disassemble the motor and clean / oil it. Take out the 'main lever' and cam and clean / lube it. Pay extra attention to a largisih metal link on the plastic cam that selects the type of cycle - next disc or stop. There is a much smaller 2 piece link for end of disc trip. It needs to be clean but I don't remember if it should even have any lube on it.
G²
Hi all,
just wanted to say I found the black molykote grease somewhere. Relubricated the main cam and the start/stop/manual levers, put everything back together and it works! Never thought that seeing a record drop and tonearm swing at the exact right moment could give such a nice feeling
And since I changed the cartridge to a magnetic one and the audio connectors to RCA, the turntable also sounds like a bell on my home-stereo!
Thanks for all the help!
S.
just wanted to say I found the black molykote grease somewhere. Relubricated the main cam and the start/stop/manual levers, put everything back together and it works! Never thought that seeing a record drop and tonearm swing at the exact right moment could give such a nice feeling
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
And since I changed the cartridge to a magnetic one and the audio connectors to RCA, the turntable also sounds like a bell on my home-stereo!
Thanks for all the help!
S.
Dual 1229 Motor Bearing Lubrication
I have a Dual 1229 that's been converted to manual mode only (heresy, I know, but it works for me!). My TT's motor has recently begun to make some scraping noises, so it's probably time to lube the motor bearings. My question is how do I get to the bearings? Do I really need to split the motor? If so, how is that done? There are two screws on the motor housing, but once removed, the black top and bottom pieces do not budge. I don't want to force or pry anything apart with undo force. Am I missing something?
Any help from the pros would be greatly appreciated!
I have a Dual 1229 that's been converted to manual mode only (heresy, I know, but it works for me!). My TT's motor has recently begun to make some scraping noises, so it's probably time to lube the motor bearings. My question is how do I get to the bearings? Do I really need to split the motor? If so, how is that done? There are two screws on the motor housing, but once removed, the black top and bottom pieces do not budge. I don't want to force or pry anything apart with undo force. Am I missing something?
Any help from the pros would be greatly appreciated!
May be a little late if it's already making noise but it's worth a try. First take a black Sharpie and make a mark on the outer edge from top shell to core to bottom shell. You'll like it when re-assembling. Remove the screws and with the motor in your hand, use the handle end of a screwdriver as a 'hammer' to loosen the top / bottom shell from the core. Then just pull the shells off the core. If you attempt to 'pry' it apart, be sure you don't damage the windings. The bearings are sintered bronze self aligning in the top / bottom shells. If there is old dirt and goo it will need to be cleaned out. Personally I prefer Xylene but it's a nasty carcinogen though easily available at the Home Depot in the US. Acetone is less harsh and alcohol even milder. If it were mine I would use Nye Oil II synthetic to lubricate the bearings. There is a cotton pad surrounding each bearing that should be nearly saturated. I believe the factory oil was Isoflex PDP 40 (?) but the last time I worked on one was around 1978.
Get a little oil 'started' on the shaft top and bottom before inserting the bottom of the shaft into the bottom shell. Line up your Sharpie marks and re-assemble it. The Dual motor shaft looked like a cylindrical mirror when it was new. Hopefully it's still that way.
Post some pics to refresh my memory.
G²
Thanks for the prompt reply! I had the thing apart today, and tried to split the motor. The thing will not come apart! I gouged it pretty badly before I gave up.
While I had the motor off, I used a pencil type lubricating tube to get some oil into the motor via the hole in the top of the casing (near the spindle). I also lightly sprayed some WD40 into the motor as well, and let it sit. This may not be the correct lubrication method or oils, but it will have to do.
After I reassembled the turntable I tested it, and things seems to have quieted down quite a bit. Not sure if this is permanent, but it's good for now. The only thing that bothers me is that I have grown quite attached to the 1229. I have a Music Hall 2.2 LE, and can honestly say that the Dual beats the pants of of that thing in every way shape or form (except for the sexy red paint on the MH) with any cartridge/stylus combination I have tried.
Again, thanks for the response!
While I had the motor off, I used a pencil type lubricating tube to get some oil into the motor via the hole in the top of the casing (near the spindle). I also lightly sprayed some WD40 into the motor as well, and let it sit. This may not be the correct lubrication method or oils, but it will have to do.
After I reassembled the turntable I tested it, and things seems to have quieted down quite a bit. Not sure if this is permanent, but it's good for now. The only thing that bothers me is that I have grown quite attached to the 1229. I have a Music Hall 2.2 LE, and can honestly say that the Dual beats the pants of of that thing in every way shape or form (except for the sexy red paint on the MH) with any cartridge/stylus combination I have tried.
Again, thanks for the response!
Guaranteed not permanent and with Water Dispersant #40 in it, you now definitely have a problem. WD40 is thickeners and solvents to thin it out. The solvents will rapidly evaporate leaving a new batch of goo behind. There aren't many things that are worse than WD40 in a motor.
Post a picture or 2 of the motor. ISTR slots stamped into the shells that may have been there explicitly for prying off the shells.
You should have a warm spot for the 1229 as it was one of the finest automatic tables built and compared well with just about anything else in its day. Properly restored it need offer no apology.
G²
I've attached a picture of the motor and one of switch that I used to convert the table to manual mode only (purists look away!):
I thought about putting the motor in a vise, and using a screwdriver to tap at the indentations in the motor housing to push them apart. Right now though, the table is back together and the noise is gone, probably due to the help I got from the micr-oiling pen I used to get the oil into the motor in the first place.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed...
I thought about putting the motor in a vise, and using a screwdriver to tap at the indentations in the motor housing to push them apart. Right now though, the table is back together and the noise is gone, probably due to the help I got from the micr-oiling pen I used to get the oil into the motor in the first place.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed...
Attachments
Are you trying to take that round black motor apart?
I have done it many times. Unfortunately I don't have one on hand
to photograph, so I'll explain.
Get two flat blade screwdrivers and a block of wood roughly
1 & 3/4 in. square, a large dowel will do.
Slip one screwdriver blade into each of two vertically adjacent slots, place
the block of wood between the two screwdriver shafts and adjust till
you can get enough leverage to squeeze the two screwdriver handles
together and begin popping the motor apart. Work slowly, a little at a
time and work around the motor going from slots to slots.
It may help to heat the motor casing just a bit with a hair dryer on high.
Make sense?
I have done it many times. Unfortunately I don't have one on hand
to photograph, so I'll explain.
Get two flat blade screwdrivers and a block of wood roughly
1 & 3/4 in. square, a large dowel will do.
Slip one screwdriver blade into each of two vertically adjacent slots, place
the block of wood between the two screwdriver shafts and adjust till
you can get enough leverage to squeeze the two screwdriver handles
together and begin popping the motor apart. Work slowly, a little at a
time and work around the motor going from slots to slots.
It may help to heat the motor casing just a bit with a hair dryer on high.
Make sense?
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YEAH, that's the ticket! It's been so long I forgot that obvious 'trick'. I'm embarrassed I didn't remember.
G²
Dual 1229Q Purchased.
Well, yesterday I came across a vintage Dual 1229Q with wooden base, intact dust cover, original cartridge clip, and turntable mounting instructions.... no user manual though. I don't know why I had to buy a 1229Q. I already have a 1229 I purchased new in 1972, but made my own solid walnut base. I guess it was to have a complete Dual set up. And the 1229Q is just magnificent.
I just had to tel someone, and though no one has posted here for awhile I have a few question since am new here. I had a bit of noise from the motor and had a bit of a time getting the motor apart. I thought it was bearing noise but it actually turned out to be something a bit bizarre. There is a ferrite ring magnet at the top of the motor stator and after disassembling it (several times) I found very small pieces of chipped ferrite clinging to the ring, and field coils. So from time to time a piece would shift and rub inside between to stator and the field pole pieces. I finally got all the pieces, but those buggers were everywhere! I'm wondering what caused the chipping? I think it may have been some harsh handling. The motor stator has quite a bit of vertical up and down free play so perhaps it slammed into the mtor housing top inside?
The inside looked very clean, no gumming and sleeve bushings and motor shaft showed no scuffing. Almost like new! There was a repititious squeak-squeak-squeak also, about the speed of the idler wheel rotation, but after cleaning it has disappeared. Now the unit is quiet and smooth.
Well, I'll go for now, but am wondering where I may be able to get a new ( maybe old stock) idler wheel. I think I know the answer. . . but I sure wishI had bought a couple years ago when they were cheap and plentiful!
Well, yesterday I came across a vintage Dual 1229Q with wooden base, intact dust cover, original cartridge clip, and turntable mounting instructions.... no user manual though.
I don't know why I had to buy a 1229Q. I already have a 1229 I purchased new in 1972, but made my own solid walnut base. I guess it was to have a complete Dual set up. And the 1229Q is just magnificent.I just had to tel someone, and though no one has posted here for awhile I have a few question since am new here. I had a bit of noise from the motor and had a bit of a time getting the motor apart. I thought it was bearing noise but it actually turned out to be something a bit bizarre. There is a ferrite ring magnet at the top of the motor stator and after disassembling it (several times) I found very small pieces of chipped ferrite clinging to the ring, and field coils. So from time to time a piece would shift and rub inside between to stator and the field pole pieces. I finally got all the pieces, but those buggers were everywhere! I'm wondering what caused the chipping? I think it may have been some harsh handling. The motor stator has quite a bit of vertical up and down free play so perhaps it slammed into the mtor housing top inside?
The inside looked very clean, no gumming and sleeve bushings and motor shaft showed no scuffing. Almost like new! There was a repititious squeak-squeak-squeak also, about the speed of the idler wheel rotation, but after cleaning it has disappeared. Now the unit is quiet and smooth.
Well, I'll go for now, but am wondering where I may be able to get a new ( maybe old stock) idler wheel. I think I know the answer. . . but I sure wishI had bought a couple years ago when they were cheap and plentiful!
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