Hi alexkosha,
The feedback might be different if people were looking inside at the workmanship. Your problems could have been due to excessive heat which could damage the insulation on the fine wires inside.
I'm not saying that this gentleman doesn't know his stuff and can't do good work. I am saying that the first skill any tech in any profession learns is how to solder. That naturally leads into getting the proper equipment to do the job (it's easier and much faster!). I can use such an iron, but it takes longer to do, and my work isn't as good as when I am using my inexpensive temperature controlled soldering station. I can imagine what his solder joints look like - because I have made some that will look similar to his. I also see a roll of solder (almost gone) that is on a metal reel. They haven't sold solder on metal reels for many years - decades now.
You are now using an unknown cartridge with no specifications. Human beings are immensely tolerant of technical problems with their equipment. Remember the turntable clinics where all this information was given to the owner? I do.
A person who sets themselves up as an expert at cartridge repair really ought to be able to reliably obtain this data, and to furnish it with the completed cartridge as proof of their excellent workmanship. From what I have seen on that bench, he hasn't got the capability to find these things out even for himself. I didn't even see a THD meter.
I'm not trying to pick on this fellow, but I can't help these clear observations, which got me thinking about the problem you had. Once I saw his soldering equipment, the probable cause was a tiny step away from the problem. There are very probably scores of cartridge repair people who are far worse than he is. However, there are professionals who very likely perform their work at a much higher level. You get back the same cartridge you sent in from a specification standpoint. The same make and model you bought. But service in this way means you do not get back the same make and model. The only way I can see this being fixed is to unwind the coils for a little bit of extra wire past the damaged ends. That changes everything. Your average customer is completely unable to notice any but the large problems - as you did. Then, with the most basic of (good) equipment, you determined what the problems were. Remember, most folks would assume the work was done properly and the finished cartridge checked before being released back to them. Yours may have only been tested for continuity on the right and left channels only. Maybe even only with a continuity test, not an actual resistance reading. Clearly no attempt was made to check channel to channel.
For the record, I am not competent to repair cartridges. No experience and shaky fingers these days. You may be forced to purchase a new cartridge to regain your original performance (or what's the point?). Given that the stylus is close to 75% the price of a new cartridge, it is a step worth considering. If you find additional issues, send the cartridge to the manufacturer and get a report. They might feel for you and reduce the replacement cost. Just be honest with them. I hope it tests perfectly and that you do receive the specifications from your original repair person after the repair gets back to you.
-Chris
The feedback might be different if people were looking inside at the workmanship. Your problems could have been due to excessive heat which could damage the insulation on the fine wires inside.
I'm not saying that this gentleman doesn't know his stuff and can't do good work. I am saying that the first skill any tech in any profession learns is how to solder. That naturally leads into getting the proper equipment to do the job (it's easier and much faster!). I can use such an iron, but it takes longer to do, and my work isn't as good as when I am using my inexpensive temperature controlled soldering station. I can imagine what his solder joints look like - because I have made some that will look similar to his. I also see a roll of solder (almost gone) that is on a metal reel. They haven't sold solder on metal reels for many years - decades now.
No, those guys were creating instruments and had a fine ear, plus an understanding of what they were looking for. When working on modern equipment, good equipment is actually required. If a designer today (electronic circuits) tries to create low distortion equipment without the aid of very good equipment, their work falls short. Certainly to restore proper working of equipment demands the proper equipment to be used. You have to listen as well, but your cartridge technician didn't use something even so basic as an ohmmeter when he released your cartridge. How does anyone know if the two channels are balanced and in phase? Basic parameters. What is the sensitivity now?
You are now using an unknown cartridge with no specifications. Human beings are immensely tolerant of technical problems with their equipment. Remember the turntable clinics where all this information was given to the owner? I do.
A person who sets themselves up as an expert at cartridge repair really ought to be able to reliably obtain this data, and to furnish it with the completed cartridge as proof of their excellent workmanship. From what I have seen on that bench, he hasn't got the capability to find these things out even for himself. I didn't even see a THD meter.
I'm not trying to pick on this fellow, but I can't help these clear observations, which got me thinking about the problem you had. Once I saw his soldering equipment, the probable cause was a tiny step away from the problem. There are very probably scores of cartridge repair people who are far worse than he is. However, there are professionals who very likely perform their work at a much higher level. You get back the same cartridge you sent in from a specification standpoint. The same make and model you bought. But service in this way means you do not get back the same make and model. The only way I can see this being fixed is to unwind the coils for a little bit of extra wire past the damaged ends. That changes everything. Your average customer is completely unable to notice any but the large problems - as you did. Then, with the most basic of (good) equipment, you determined what the problems were. Remember, most folks would assume the work was done properly and the finished cartridge checked before being released back to them. Yours may have only been tested for continuity on the right and left channels only. Maybe even only with a continuity test, not an actual resistance reading. Clearly no attempt was made to check channel to channel.
For the record, I am not competent to repair cartridges. No experience and shaky fingers these days. You may be forced to purchase a new cartridge to regain your original performance (or what's the point?). Given that the stylus is close to 75% the price of a new cartridge, it is a step worth considering. If you find additional issues, send the cartridge to the manufacturer and get a report. They might feel for you and reduce the replacement cost. Just be honest with them. I hope it tests perfectly and that you do receive the specifications from your original repair person after the repair gets back to you.
-Chris
Hi Bksabath,
Sorry, I missed most of the lingo. I don't entirely understand what you are asking, but here goes...
The thin wire is moved in strong magnetic field, which excites many electrons, not just a few. In electron terms, a very large mass is moved and helps to generate a signal. Since the wire does move, it is subject to wear and can develop open circuits after many, many decades of use. But make no mistake, the coil is directly coupled to the shank that holds the actual needle part. The movement of that coil is in response to the movement of the stylus in the grooves in the record.
In a moving magnet cartridge, the coil remains stationary and the stylus moves a strong magnet. This weighs more than a coil of wire and is why many people prefer the sound of moving coil cartridge. There is a third type of cartridge that offers high performance. The VMS type (Ortofon) where the magnet and coil are both stationary. A metal vane is moved by the stylus that varies the magnetic flux. Because the coil is stationary, it can be larger and develop the higher voltages like a moving magnet, but the vane is light like a moving coil. I can attest to the effectiveness of this approach. It also sounds like a moving coil cartridge, but I can replace my own stylus. Styli are still worth 75% of the price of the entire cartridge, so if someone is having a sale you might get the entire thing at less than the replacement stylus cost. Just keep an open mind when new stylus time arrives.
I hope I've answered what you may have been asking about.
-Chris
Sorry, I missed most of the lingo. I don't entirely understand what you are asking, but here goes...
The thin wire is moved in strong magnetic field, which excites many electrons, not just a few. In electron terms, a very large mass is moved and helps to generate a signal. Since the wire does move, it is subject to wear and can develop open circuits after many, many decades of use. But make no mistake, the coil is directly coupled to the shank that holds the actual needle part. The movement of that coil is in response to the movement of the stylus in the grooves in the record.
In a moving magnet cartridge, the coil remains stationary and the stylus moves a strong magnet. This weighs more than a coil of wire and is why many people prefer the sound of moving coil cartridge. There is a third type of cartridge that offers high performance. The VMS type (Ortofon) where the magnet and coil are both stationary. A metal vane is moved by the stylus that varies the magnetic flux. Because the coil is stationary, it can be larger and develop the higher voltages like a moving magnet, but the vane is light like a moving coil. I can attest to the effectiveness of this approach. It also sounds like a moving coil cartridge, but I can replace my own stylus. Styli are still worth 75% of the price of the entire cartridge, so if someone is having a sale you might get the entire thing at less than the replacement stylus cost. Just keep an open mind when new stylus time arrives.
I hope I've answered what you may have been asking about.
-Chris
All I am asking is ( agree on how cartridge work)
Are YOU REALY using a meter to measure cart resistance?
I wonder how the cartridge can survive current and voltages 1000 of times larger than it's nominal output.
Urban Dictionary: horrorshow
Are YOU REALY using a meter to measure cart resistance?
I wonder how the cartridge can survive current and voltages 1000 of times larger than it's nominal output.
Urban Dictionary: horrorshow
With great ease, it's just a coil of wire after all. The current running through it from a digital multimeter will be very tiny. On the order of micro-amps. The power dissipation will probably be less than a milliwatt.
Sometimes it's best to know what you're talking about before you go ALLCAPS (or maybe ALCAPS in your case)
.
Start with 100R
Better a whisper than letting only RDS of Q6 alone to oppose ACmA possible large swing. Try on a breadboard first. Its just a B1 stage with small input cap and larger output cap. Use your gen to drive it at expected swings. Say 1V to 10V pk-pk. Check the residual output with your scope over the mute resistor, monitor the current swing over 1R in series with PSU using one free scope channel. See if a JFET will break at how low Ohmic load vs high AC drive. Thorough experimental work.
Will do and post here my findings.
Now I need a timing circuit for the two relays.
The output muting relay must close first, then the switching gain stage relay should trigger and the muting should let go.
Would you point me a suitable solution ?
Hello,
My name is Tom and this is my first post to this thread. I live in Haarlem just outside Amsterdam in The Netherlands. I’m taking part in the most recent group buy and am looking forward to building the FSP phono stage.
There’s just one question which I probably should have asked before signing up for the group buy. My plan is to connect the FSP to my passive preamp (Tribute AVC with either 150 He or 180 He inductance). Does this configuration have any implications for the output cap? Is 2.2uF spot on, should I go bigger or can I get away with a smaller cap?
Thank you for your help!
P.s. my power amp is a Sun Audio 2A3 with 100k input impedance.
My name is Tom and this is my first post to this thread. I live in Haarlem just outside Amsterdam in The Netherlands. I’m taking part in the most recent group buy and am looking forward to building the FSP phono stage.
There’s just one question which I probably should have asked before signing up for the group buy. My plan is to connect the FSP to my passive preamp (Tribute AVC with either 150 He or 180 He inductance). Does this configuration have any implications for the output cap? Is 2.2uF spot on, should I go bigger or can I get away with a smaller cap?
Thank you for your help!
P.s. my power amp is a Sun Audio 2A3 with 100k input impedance.
Hi Bksabath,
I know that some meters run at much higher current levels. I have one that tests in the ampere range. Its good for checking ground integrity, but harmful to cartridges.
As monty78pig pointed out, you need to educate yourself if you want to question other people's posts while using caps, size and bold attributes. Make certain you are right before screaming in a thread.
-Chris
Why, yes. Why ever do you ask? I stated that the test current on my meter is 1 mA on the low resistance range and decreases as the range increases. 1 mA will not damage any cartridge. I also stated that I tend to use an expensive Agilent LCR meter and can use 50 mV as an AC test voltage and measure at several different frequencies. I may check a cartridge at 120 Hz, 1 KHz or 10 KHz if I have reason to check other frequencies. Normally that instrument is set to either 1 KHz or 120 Hz.
I know that some meters run at much higher current levels. I have one that tests in the ampere range. Its good for checking ground integrity, but harmful to cartridges.
As monty78pig pointed out, you need to educate yourself if you want to question other people's posts while using caps, size and bold attributes. Make certain you are right before screaming in a thread.
-Chris
Return to the attenuator discussion -
When I first started plotting my SIMPLISTIC build I knew I wanted to use a pair of Dave Slagle's autoformer attenuators since they had worked so well with my previous phono amp (Broskie's AIKIDO).
I had all sorts of troubles due to my inexperience with semiconductors and if not for the sainted TEA BAG I would not be enjoying this thing.
When I first installed the autoformers they did not work. I assumed there was some kind of conflict between the phono amp and the attenuators. I went with a simple l-pad comprised of two TX2575 resistors. Eventually I tired of the one volume level.
After looking around at resistor based attenuators and how much money I could spend putting a really good one together I decided to send my autoformers back to Dave. He told me there was nothing wrong with them other than a pin in the switch was blocking the switch from conducting from the correct point. I know nothing about switches so I know I did not move it intentionally. Would not know how to do it, so this remains a mystery.
So I finally got them back and installed them (they are between the phono amp and the amplifiers) and they work. Since many people use them between CD players and amplifiers this is easy duty for them. Why I would have assumed there was a conflict between two benign devices tells you more about myself than I should admit to.
Compared to the TX2575 l-pad they are superior. In comparison to the autoformer the TX2575s sound harsh and a little steely. The autoformers, in my system, add much refinement with no loss of detail detected yet. They are still evolving as they settle in, only getting better.
SO, these things work just fine with the SALAS phono stage. I am using horn loudspeakers which may be influencing my preference over the resistors. There is less "shout" (not that there was much of it before) with the autoformers. The sound is even less attached to the speakers.
I can say I am completely satisfied with my last phono amplifier.
With gratitude to SALAS, TEA BAG, and Dave Slagle,
When I first started plotting my SIMPLISTIC build I knew I wanted to use a pair of Dave Slagle's autoformer attenuators since they had worked so well with my previous phono amp (Broskie's AIKIDO).
I had all sorts of troubles due to my inexperience with semiconductors and if not for the sainted TEA BAG I would not be enjoying this thing.
When I first installed the autoformers they did not work. I assumed there was some kind of conflict between the phono amp and the attenuators. I went with a simple l-pad comprised of two TX2575 resistors. Eventually I tired of the one volume level.
After looking around at resistor based attenuators and how much money I could spend putting a really good one together I decided to send my autoformers back to Dave. He told me there was nothing wrong with them other than a pin in the switch was blocking the switch from conducting from the correct point. I know nothing about switches so I know I did not move it intentionally. Would not know how to do it, so this remains a mystery.
So I finally got them back and installed them (they are between the phono amp and the amplifiers) and they work. Since many people use them between CD players and amplifiers this is easy duty for them. Why I would have assumed there was a conflict between two benign devices tells you more about myself than I should admit to.
Compared to the TX2575 l-pad they are superior. In comparison to the autoformer the TX2575s sound harsh and a little steely. The autoformers, in my system, add much refinement with no loss of detail detected yet. They are still evolving as they settle in, only getting better.
SO, these things work just fine with the SALAS phono stage. I am using horn loudspeakers which may be influencing my preference over the resistors. There is less "shout" (not that there was much of it before) with the autoformers. The sound is even less attached to the speakers.
I can say I am completely satisfied with my last phono amplifier.
With gratitude to SALAS, TEA BAG, and Dave Slagle,
Right so that is over 20 times the max output of a mc cartridge and u get upset for same caps?
not only that U put on it a nice DC transient on it and maybe more than one as those tiny pins can be a little slippery like.
I do understand looking for fault on your TT loom what the point of tampering whit cartridge it either sound right or not
Get this as education u just joined club of 2 or 3 peoples I got absolutely no time for...
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Hi Bksabath,
My gosh are you ever rude! You don't seem to know very much either, and it shows. Hopefully you are just having a bad day.
I answered the points you brought up in your post, even though you were discourteous to everyone by yelling. You might have simply asked politely and got a different response from me. You might learn something if you read that post again.
However, if this is how you plan to interact with people, please just go away.
-Chris
My gosh are you ever rude! You don't seem to know very much either, and it shows. Hopefully you are just having a bad day.
I answered the points you brought up in your post, even though you were discourteous to everyone by yelling. You might have simply asked politely and got a different response from me. You might learn something if you read that post again.
However, if this is how you plan to interact with people, please just go away.
-Chris
Hi Salas,
Exactly, but if I had a moving coil cartridge to test on my bench, I would by using the LCR Meter at 50 ~ 100 mV, not the meter (DVM).
The poles for the coils are soft iron that don't take magnetization. But even if a slight magnetic polarization did take place, it would only shift the position on the B-H curve a little, and I mean a tiny amount considering the test currents involved. The duration isn't very long either.
Salas, please have alook at that technician's bench and tell me what you think.
http://www.phonocartridgeretipping.com/images/phono2-big.jpg
http://www.phonocartridgeretipping.com/images/tool-big.jpg
www.phonocartridgeretipping.com/images/tool2-big.jpg
I am not seeing the equipment he needs, especially the soldering iron!
-Chris
Exactly, but if I had a moving coil cartridge to test on my bench, I would by using the LCR Meter at 50 ~ 100 mV, not the meter (DVM).
The poles for the coils are soft iron that don't take magnetization. But even if a slight magnetic polarization did take place, it would only shift the position on the B-H curve a little, and I mean a tiny amount considering the test currents involved. The duration isn't very long either.
Salas, please have alook at that technician's bench and tell me what you think.
http://www.phonocartridgeretipping.com/images/phono2-big.jpg
http://www.phonocartridgeretipping.com/images/tool-big.jpg
www.phonocartridgeretipping.com/images/tool2-big.jpg
I am not seeing the equipment he needs, especially the soldering iron!
-Chris
I see a nice strong microscope and several crude old era stuff that I don't know what he uses for what. He maybe does other things on that bench too. I mean that kind of thickness blackened by oxidization solder wire is not applicable even with a 2k$ JBC station on anything smaller than a nine inch nail in a bath of flux. He could be explaining to Alex who's the customer on what went wrong and what he uses to solder to the cart pins. Then Alex would solve the mystery by telling here.
Start with 100R
Better a whisper than letting only RDS of Q6 alone to oppose ACmA possible large swing. Try on a breadboard first. Its just a B1 stage with small input cap and larger output cap. Use your gen to drive it at expected swings. Say 1V to 10V pk-pk. Check the residual output with your scope over the mute resistor, monitor the current swing over 1R in series with PSU using one free scope channel. See if a JFET will break at how low Ohmic load vs high AC drive. Thorough experimental work.
Now I need a timing circuit for the two relays.
The output muting relay must close first, then the switching gain stage relay should trigger and the muting should let go.
Would you point me a suitable solution ?