All set and BIAS is in spec. I tested my freshly-fixed cart and it sounds very nice. Open, reach and detailed sound. Improved in the mid and low sections. It is much better response than from my old Ply.
Preamp volume knob level is about 1 or 2 clicks up than with my CD player, but that is not a problem.
Several aspects...
Once again, I do not hear any sound change with different load. 47K and till 125R is all the same. Have you experienced with such carts?
Strange issue is also when I reach about half on my preamp volume (12 0'clock)... it is like loudly waving sound with 2-3 up-downs in a sec. Is it clipping on preamp? Go to 11 o'clock and waving disappears, and it sounds correctly. Have you saw such behave too?
Does such behave can be related to the load? I tried with 125R and 470R. Did not go yet for the heavier load to test waving....
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In my experience with several MC carts, when starting with a difficult low value load for a cart to drive well, output is quieter. The tone strains and the rhythm slows down. When moving up in value to a load that is right, the output gains up. The tonal balance feels natural, and the 3D impression opens up. After that point, as the experimental load value gets higher and higher, the output gains a little more volume until a point. The low mid & bass become lighter and lighter, the 3D becomes more wide than deep, the rhythm feels anxious, some unnatural projection in the vocal range. There are reviews I have read about some carts that seem to not care, but haven't met that personally.
What do you mean with the term "waving sound"? Woofers flapping? Wah-Wah guitar like effect (Jimi Hendrix)? Very unlikely to be the cart or the phono. Maybe some acoustic feedback threshold of vibration is reached between the speakers and tubes in your pre, or back to the TT itself? New cart internals and cantilever, new suspension. Arm-cart mass & resonance had probably changed, new VTF and tracking geometry maybe needed. Does it do it on headphones with the speakers turned off? On the other hand if its something momentarily electrical between the phono and the tube pre, try 47-100 Ohm in series with phono RCA out center pin for damping. BTW, clipping is recognizable as hard breaking up sound, no ups and downs.
What do you mean with the term "waving sound"? Woofers flapping? Wah-Wah guitar like effect (Jimi Hendrix)? Very unlikely to be the cart or the phono. Maybe some acoustic feedback threshold of vibration is reached between the speakers and tubes in your pre, or back to the TT itself? New cart internals and cantilever, new suspension. Arm-cart mass & resonance had probably changed, new VTF and tracking geometry maybe needed. Does it do it on headphones with the speakers turned off? On the other hand if its something momentarily electrical between the phono and the tube pre, try 47-100 Ohm in series with phono RCA out center pin for damping. BTW, clipping is recognizable as hard breaking up sound, no ups and downs.
You're absolutely right and that is exactly what it is: Woofers flapping, Wah-Wah guitar like effect (Jimi Hendrix). I couldn’t express it in better way.
I did set my VTF to 1.850g. The original Ply spec is 1.8-2.0g. All geometry tracking is set for classic spec too.
Do not have that effect with my MOSFET headphone amp, but max volume on it is not that loud. It runs through your B1 buffer and has only x3 gain.
Based on how you described, it is not definitely not a clipping.
If it is acoustic feedback threshold of vibration is reached between the speakers and tubes, how to avoid it?
I'll try 100R damper resistor on RCAs too.
Report you in couple hours.
I did set my VTF to 1.850g. The original Ply spec is 1.8-2.0g. All geometry tracking is set for classic spec too.
Do not have that effect with my MOSFET headphone amp, but max volume on it is not that loud. It runs through your B1 buffer and has only x3 gain.
Based on how you described, it is not definitely not a clipping.
If it is acoustic feedback threshold of vibration is reached between the speakers and tubes, how to avoid it?
I'll try 100R damper resistor on RCAs too.
Report you in couple hours.
The woofer flapping starts on my Power Subwoofer at about 12 o'clock (1/2 volume knob range). In 1-2 sec that cause even worth woofer flapping due to floor vibration which transfers to TT arm.
When I turn my sub off, harsh in low frequency and kind of similar flapping starts around 1:30 o'clock on my main speakers.
I left load to 1K, but also can hear any change from 125R to 47K.
So, 100R resistors to the output? Should I expect some sound quality degradation with this?
Its rather surely acoustic feedback since you don't get it on the headphones. You need check the new resonance frequency of arm-cart, the VTF, and the geometry. Everything that matters about those things is new in your modded cartridge. You could start with the 100R which is easier so to make sure its not an interfacing effect anyway. Yes there is a small chance it will degrade the SQ a little bit. Use best quality resistor there.
Well, I made several tests and all is clear now. Nothing is wrong with Cart, FSP and Tri preamp.
a. Installed 2 of 100R Z Foil resistors on RCA out signal path and nothing is changed.
b. Harsh sound on Low spectrum coming from my power amp (with no Subwoofer attached) is related to its linear limit of Min distortion. I by-passed volume potentiometer and it is direct signal is going through. I might need to install V divider based on ¾ of max 100K Alps potentiometer to avoid that Max singal passage. If someone has such 100K log potentiometer, then please let me know R values 1-2 and 2-3 when it is ¾ of max position.
c. The issue is starts when my sub is ON. It is an excitation issue when signal getting higher.
It’s getting that reaction on B position about at 12 o’clock. It is getting reactive when I switch to A position almost at 0 volume. It is definitely something wrong.
What is A and B: two settings of the EQ switch. Position B is optimized to allow the subwoofer to provide the highest listening levels, while position A gives greater bass extension coupled with a tighter sound. Any advices are very much welcome.
a. Installed 2 of 100R Z Foil resistors on RCA out signal path and nothing is changed.
b. Harsh sound on Low spectrum coming from my power amp (with no Subwoofer attached) is related to its linear limit of Min distortion. I by-passed volume potentiometer and it is direct signal is going through. I might need to install V divider based on ¾ of max 100K Alps potentiometer to avoid that Max singal passage. If someone has such 100K log potentiometer, then please let me know R values 1-2 and 2-3 when it is ¾ of max position.
c. The issue is starts when my sub is ON. It is an excitation issue when signal getting higher.
It’s getting that reaction on B position about at 12 o’clock. It is getting reactive when I switch to A position almost at 0 volume. It is definitely something wrong.
What is A and B: two settings of the EQ switch. Position B is optimized to allow the subwoofer to provide the highest listening levels, while position A gives greater bass extension coupled with a tighter sound. Any advices are very much welcome.
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How to test that sync? My Sub is getting line from preamp and speakers are connected to power amps which also getting same signal from the same preamp.
Luckily I have 3 identical outputs from preamp and they all connected to the same output from the board. Do I need to try to install dummy 100R there to sub output?
If you get your ears inbetween speaker and sub its gonna be louder if they are in synk then if you go away a few meters. If they are out of sync signal gets lower when your right between them then a few meters away or just listening to one. Play a low sinus if you can produce that with something.
If you know that the signals are in sync and that no devise is inverting the signal from input to output you can test polarity on speaker cable red/black and look at the cone if it goes out or in with battery connected.
The reason I ask is that you might have a higher bass then you hear but its getting cancelled between the speakers, but the gear picks up the vibrations.
If you know that the signals are in sync and that no devise is inverting the signal from input to output you can test polarity on speaker cable red/black and look at the cone if it goes out or in with battery connected.
The reason I ask is that you might have a higher bass then you hear but its getting cancelled between the speakers, but the gear picks up the vibrations.
You are good ... Indeed you are
I found that unloading can indeed open up the sounstage and normally I work between 470ohm to 2200ohm.
Allready tested the Folded with severall good carts: Koetsu Black (VdH modded) VdH Colibri, Kiseki lapis lazuli, Benz LP, Goldenote Tuscany, Lyra Atlas.
I could never push the loading lower than 2200ohm... and what you describe is true reality.
PS: I usually try to get the most of the cart by adjusting VTA and VTF and than tamper with loading.
Quote" On the other hand if its something momentarily electrical between the phono and the tube pre, try 47-100 Ohm in series with phono RCA out center pin for damping. BTW, clipping is recognizable as hard breaking up sound, no ups and downs"
Remenber I had some "pushing sounds" in one of my experiments with a friend's setup that used 5 meter cables between the Folded and the preamp ?
I never tried this....
All my cables are 1m.
I also confused about controversy massage:
" I work between 470ohm to 2200ohm" and "I could never push the loading lower than 2200ohm.."
Hello alexkosha
my comments about cable length are somehow restrained by a problem I had when driving a preamp with the folded using 5 meter long cables.... I got "not time related, pushing sounds".... I tried filtering the input of the riaa amp without results.... now I wonder if this "loading" method would be more effective. Nothing to do with your setup IMO.
Back to cart loading; There seems to be a "universal" trend to establish "optimum" MC cart loading near 100 ohm.
IMO loading an MC cart so heavily only serves to reduce sensivity to "clicks and pops".
As Salas (very eloquently) explainded, unloading the MC cart will increase soundstage width and depth. It does so because response in the high frequencies will not be restrained. But there is a maximum after witch sound becomes "edgy" and there seems to be a confusion in the vocals.
Looking at Benz (Mr. Albert Lucas Check) phono preamp, we see it has loading fixed at 27kohms.... and Mr. Van Den Hull used to state we should "unload MC carts" and use them at 47kohms.
I know Benz carts "like" high resistor values for loading, but IMO I was never pleased with values higher than 2200ohms.
So I normally go between 470 ohms and 2200 ohms depending on the carts I use.
Denon DL160 - 1100ohms
Denon DL103 - 1000ohms
Benz ACE M - 2200ohms
Benz Glider SL - 2200ohms
Goldenote Baldinoti - 470ohms
Goldenote Tuscany - 470ohms
Ortofon Quintet Blue or Red - 475ohms
Koetsu Black (VdH) - 1200ohms
Zyx Bloom H - 1600ohms
Benz LP - 2300ohms
Kiseki Lapis Lazuli - 1200 ohms
Lyra Atlas - 850ohms
my comments about cable length are somehow restrained by a problem I had when driving a preamp with the folded using 5 meter long cables.... I got "not time related, pushing sounds".... I tried filtering the input of the riaa amp without results.... now I wonder if this "loading" method would be more effective. Nothing to do with your setup IMO.
Back to cart loading; There seems to be a "universal" trend to establish "optimum" MC cart loading near 100 ohm.
IMO loading an MC cart so heavily only serves to reduce sensivity to "clicks and pops".
As Salas (very eloquently) explainded, unloading the MC cart will increase soundstage width and depth. It does so because response in the high frequencies will not be restrained. But there is a maximum after witch sound becomes "edgy" and there seems to be a confusion in the vocals.
Looking at Benz (Mr. Albert Lucas Check) phono preamp, we see it has loading fixed at 27kohms.... and Mr. Van Den Hull used to state we should "unload MC carts" and use them at 47kohms.
I know Benz carts "like" high resistor values for loading, but IMO I was never pleased with values higher than 2200ohms.
So I normally go between 470 ohms and 2200 ohms depending on the carts I use.
Denon DL160 - 1100ohms
Denon DL103 - 1000ohms
Benz ACE M - 2200ohms
Benz Glider SL - 2200ohms
Goldenote Baldinoti - 470ohms
Goldenote Tuscany - 470ohms
Ortofon Quintet Blue or Red - 475ohms
Koetsu Black (VdH) - 1200ohms
Zyx Bloom H - 1600ohms
Benz LP - 2300ohms
Kiseki Lapis Lazuli - 1200 ohms
Lyra Atlas - 850ohms
a. Most expected, its not an electrical oscillation
b. L pad in line input used for the phono input or general Lpad (resistor to pot), there are many Lpad calcs on line. Look for 25% attenuation to test first.
c. Acoustic feedback in the low bass. Smaller value Cout or lower input impedace in the line pre with 10K input Z Lpad or general Lpad with the pot for all inputs
Very probable is that you need start from setting up the TT better for the essentially new cart. Its smelling strongly like a positive vibrational feedback problem from sub to TT. Matter of rigid support even.
Reading the loading comments has motivated me to try something other than my tried and true 100R.
While I am hearing a beautiful sound I may be limiting what the stage is capable of with my stubborn choice?
I certainly do not detect a reduction in level or dynamics but the euphonic, romantic high frequencies I am enjoying are maybe just that.
Would not want to lose it entirely but there probably IS a better value.
Thanks for the motivation.
While I am hearing a beautiful sound I may be limiting what the stage is capable of with my stubborn choice?
I certainly do not detect a reduction in level or dynamics but the euphonic, romantic high frequencies I am enjoying are maybe just that.
Would not want to lose it entirely but there probably IS a better value.
Thanks for the motivation.
Most low impedance LMC like yours can be very good at 100 Ohm but they could have more to give circa 200 Ohm. Even at higher values, but start with 150 then 200 and if the direction feels right then compare 300, 500, 1000. VTA & VTF may need fine tweaking if things generally improve but there's also some tonal area that tends to go off a bit. Good luck.
a.
b. I made some alteration. Hope it is the right one. It is too late to test it loudly now.
I'll run it tomorrow. Please see attached picture. Did not cut potentiometer from GND (red marks on picture) since it might change my Input impedance. It is 100k per manual. Please advise.
Original 82k and 220k voltage divider gives me about ¾ of input V.
c. I do not what to modify preamp output. I rather to mod Sub RCA cables. Please advise for Cout. It seems easy to install into RCA plugs.
d. TT is set perfectly now. Cart load is 3K now. VTA is 9-10 mm up from the original Ply and VTF is 1.86 gms. With no subwoofer actions, the sound is perfect.
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Hi RCruz,
Thank you for that info.
All my cables are 1 m, beside interconnect from preamp to power amp which is about 2.4 m.
My card is very close to Benz Glider Low (it based on it per Wilson Benesch interview during some audio show) . Now, with 64dB on FSP it sounds very nice.
Unfortunately, I can’t reach 2.2k loan by now. I used all resistor’s value indicated in manual. So, 1k or 3K are closed to your 2.2k. I'll might try 2.2k in future.
Thank you for that info.
All my cables are 1 m, beside interconnect from preamp to power amp which is about 2.4 m.
My card is very close to Benz Glider Low (it based on it per Wilson Benesch interview during some audio show) . Now, with 64dB on FSP it sounds very nice.
Unfortunately, I can’t reach 2.2k loan by now. I used all resistor’s value indicated in manual. So, 1k or 3K are closed to your 2.2k. I'll might try 2.2k in future.
Hi Alex, so it already had R7 & R8 resistors there. The ground on VR1 must stay. Where the VR1 wiper now goes? Is it tied like a rheostat on one VR1 leg, changing the R7+R8 value as it is in parallel? As it was before it was changing the R7 value of the divider. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_divider
P.S. With Cout I meant the one in the phono so to create more roll off. But it can be addressed with driving lower impedance in the line preamp easier and cheaper.
P.S. With Cout I meant the one in the phono so to create more roll off. But it can be addressed with driving lower impedance in the line preamp easier and cheaper.
Hi Nick, I know that is not the right forom. But any way, that bypass is little messy since all resistors are installed into small PCB and potentiometer soldered too.
Please see attached picture. It will be clear what I tried.
What I did first (Modified 1) , I disconnected wiper.
Second (Modified 2) bypassed R7. At that case, R7 is irrelevant since it is shored and straight signal is going in. But, VR1 is 100K behave as load resistor and interacts with R8 installed parallel. So, the total load will be 68.75k.
Third step (Modified 3), I disconnected R8. So, my total load will remain 100k from Alps where 1 (GND) -3 (IN) on VR1.
I plan to disconnect VR1 #1 (GND) and to install “nice” 100k Vishay and the RCA input instead.
What do you think?
I can reduce C2Y if this what you caledl Cout. I’m using about 250pF now since my C2 is 14.950nF. Is this what you meant?
Please see attached picture. It will be clear what I tried.
What I did first (Modified 1) , I disconnected wiper.
Second (Modified 2) bypassed R7. At that case, R7 is irrelevant since it is shored and straight signal is going in. But, VR1 is 100K behave as load resistor and interacts with R8 installed parallel. So, the total load will be 68.75k.
Third step (Modified 3), I disconnected R8. So, my total load will remain 100k from Alps where 1 (GND) -3 (IN) on VR1.
I plan to disconnect VR1 #1 (GND) and to install “nice” 100k Vishay and the RCA input instead.
What do you think?
I can reduce C2Y if this what you caledl Cout. I’m using about 250pF now since my C2 is 14.950nF. Is this what you meant?
