Ariston RD11s Chassis Shots
In response to ATAVID I will attempt to post 2 photos - 1 each of the undersides of my 2 Ariston RD11s 'tables. Some background is in order.
The first photo shows the underside of a RD11s for which the top plate identifying label indicates "RD11s", the company is Ariston Audio Ltd (top of label), serial # 003129 CDN, and Dunlopwestayr Limited, Ayrshire, Scotland further down. Note, the galvanized steel/unpainted chassis. The platter spindle has a concaved end - riding on a loose ball bearing.
The second photo shows my second table with a top plate label that indicates RD11 (no "s"), Ariston Audio at the top of the label, serial # 003940, and no further company or address info at the bottom. Note fully smooth, painted and finished chassis. The spindle slightly tapers - but ends with a FLAT end. The bearing is a captive (not loose) ball bearing.
Some observations: Both turntables have a base with is stamped on the underside with a manufacture date of June, 1974. Both plinths have on the front a "badge" that says Ariston Audio, both top plates have "RD11s" above the power switch (which is on the right side) and a round tonearm board. DIFFERENCE - you can see that the outrigger tonearm platform is not shaped the same for the 2 tables. Without taking the chassis out of the base I can only say that both arm platforms appear to be just bolted to the kite shaped sub-chassis. I suppose they could also be spot welded - but I cannot tell from the underside.
I know from some research through the internet that Hamish Robertson left Ariston - the company he started - in 1973. That is when Dunlp Westayr Ltd bought the company. Dunlop later sold the company to John Carrick. John now designs audio cables for Atlas Cables/Scotland.
I am interested in the HISTORY of the turntables – meaning turntable models came first and which second. Was the RD11s before or after OR at the same time as the RD11 (no “s”)?? Anyone know???
In response to ATAVID I will attempt to post 2 photos - 1 each of the undersides of my 2 Ariston RD11s 'tables. Some background is in order.
The first photo shows the underside of a RD11s for which the top plate identifying label indicates "RD11s", the company is Ariston Audio Ltd (top of label), serial # 003129 CDN, and Dunlopwestayr Limited, Ayrshire, Scotland further down. Note, the galvanized steel/unpainted chassis. The platter spindle has a concaved end - riding on a loose ball bearing.
The second photo shows my second table with a top plate label that indicates RD11 (no "s"), Ariston Audio at the top of the label, serial # 003940, and no further company or address info at the bottom. Note fully smooth, painted and finished chassis. The spindle slightly tapers - but ends with a FLAT end. The bearing is a captive (not loose) ball bearing.
Some observations: Both turntables have a base with is stamped on the underside with a manufacture date of June, 1974. Both plinths have on the front a "badge" that says Ariston Audio, both top plates have "RD11s" above the power switch (which is on the right side) and a round tonearm board. DIFFERENCE - you can see that the outrigger tonearm platform is not shaped the same for the 2 tables. Without taking the chassis out of the base I can only say that both arm platforms appear to be just bolted to the kite shaped sub-chassis. I suppose they could also be spot welded - but I cannot tell from the underside.
I know from some research through the internet that Hamish Robertson left Ariston - the company he started - in 1973. That is when Dunlp Westayr Ltd bought the company. Dunlop later sold the company to John Carrick. John now designs audio cables for Atlas Cables/Scotland.
I am interested in the HISTORY of the turntables – meaning turntable models came first and which second. Was the RD11s before or after OR at the same time as the RD11 (no “s”)?? Anyone know???
Good on you,thanks Torens for posting those pics,i do appreciate it.
Its always interesting to see the variations in what is basically the same model.
I now know what the big hole in the subchassis was designed for(a tonearm rest mounting in the top plate above it).
I see that you appear to have fitted one of the later Linn Premotec motors with the bearing end cap fitted,whereas the motor on your earlier deck(galvanised chassis) has a motor very similiar to the early Linn decks.
I found the label that was attached to the top plate of my RD11S in my little box of bits and pieces.Mine too only says it is an RD11 not an RD11S, which it clearly is.
They probably just had a lot of them left over from what was, i believe, the earlier model, the RD11.
If i recall, when i ordered my deck back in the very early 80's,i originally asked for the RD11,but the dealer came back and told me it had been superseded by the better/later deck, the RD11S. I also recall him telling me it was very similiar in tonal qualities to the Linn at the time.
I had a friend who had a brand spanking new LP12, and a side by side comparison, left me a little disappointed. It wasn't that the RD11S was bad,i felt it was pretty close in sound,but just sounded a little "too lush" without the "detail" of the Linn is my recollection. Mind you,it was a hell of a lot better than a lot of the other decks around at the time.I remember a comparison with a Dual for example.
If you look at an RD11 it is identical in every way to the early Linn with a full length arm board attached with 3 small self tappers as per the Linn,an identical on/off switch to the Linn in the same position, and what looks like the same motor/pulley/guide and mounting arrangement as the early Linn.
Your info about the two bearing types is interesting as i believe that the later design used in the RD11S ,but used earlier by Linn in its deck was the thing that set the Linn apart sonically from its competitors,and really distinguished the LP12 from the RD11.
I have some images of the RD11 from one that sold recently on Ebay.You can clearly see the similarities to the Linn.
I tried to post some pics again the other day and i couldnt get them to load.I must have fluked the first images i posted.Any way i will persist and see if i can load them.
Its always interesting to see the variations in what is basically the same model.
I now know what the big hole in the subchassis was designed for(a tonearm rest mounting in the top plate above it).
I see that you appear to have fitted one of the later Linn Premotec motors with the bearing end cap fitted,whereas the motor on your earlier deck(galvanised chassis) has a motor very similiar to the early Linn decks.
I found the label that was attached to the top plate of my RD11S in my little box of bits and pieces.Mine too only says it is an RD11 not an RD11S, which it clearly is.
They probably just had a lot of them left over from what was, i believe, the earlier model, the RD11.
If i recall, when i ordered my deck back in the very early 80's,i originally asked for the RD11,but the dealer came back and told me it had been superseded by the better/later deck, the RD11S. I also recall him telling me it was very similiar in tonal qualities to the Linn at the time.
I had a friend who had a brand spanking new LP12, and a side by side comparison, left me a little disappointed. It wasn't that the RD11S was bad,i felt it was pretty close in sound,but just sounded a little "too lush" without the "detail" of the Linn is my recollection. Mind you,it was a hell of a lot better than a lot of the other decks around at the time.I remember a comparison with a Dual for example.
If you look at an RD11 it is identical in every way to the early Linn with a full length arm board attached with 3 small self tappers as per the Linn,an identical on/off switch to the Linn in the same position, and what looks like the same motor/pulley/guide and mounting arrangement as the early Linn.
Your info about the two bearing types is interesting as i believe that the later design used in the RD11S ,but used earlier by Linn in its deck was the thing that set the Linn apart sonically from its competitors,and really distinguished the LP12 from the RD11.
I have some images of the RD11 from one that sold recently on Ebay.You can clearly see the similarities to the Linn.
I tried to post some pics again the other day and i couldnt get them to load.I must have fluked the first images i posted.Any way i will persist and see if i can load them.
Sreten,
Are you talking of selective damping the subchassis, or of total replacement. I had considered both, but damping implied endless listening experiments (type, area, density, etc) . Total replacement however, got complicated because of the bearing housing is press fitted, rather than screwed in.
Is there an alternate solution?
Drofo.
Are you talking of selective damping the subchassis, or of total replacement. I had considered both, but damping implied endless listening experiments (type, area, density, etc) . Total replacement however, got complicated because of the bearing housing is press fitted, rather than screwed in.
Is there an alternate solution?
Drofo.
Drofo said:
Hi,
Personally I'd get my jigsaw out and the subchassis would be no more,
other than as a flange around the bearing. Other options are making
it more 3d by reinforcement and of course adding some damping.
There is of course no option to try the result before you slice up
the subchassis - so you have to be confident in what you are
doing - which I would be.
/sreten.Well i've been sitting around "music less" now for a few weeks,waiting now for delivery of my VTA adjuster and ceramic bearing insert(thanks Drofo),as well as my new acrylic armboard and base plate.
I've been thinking about the difference my mods hopefully will make.
Then i thought back to what started all this,and it was a problem i was having with the earthing on my TT,and a hum from my motor(seem to have fixed the hum at least now).
When i used to prop my hand under the arm lift and touch the top plate and tonearm at the same time, i would feel a small electrical tingle. Knowing that the RB300 has an "unusual" earthing system, i embarked on this quest to resolve it. But as i realized a couple of days ago,i havnt yet done anything about it, so carried away have i become with all the other mods.So the other day i took my arm to "the shop"with a view to having them modify the earthing system. The conversation inevitably turned to replacing the tonearm wiring,which in turn led to talk of replacing the whole wire loom. Ok,i'm a sucker for a good sales pitch, I left the arm there to have the Van Den Hul wiring done right through to new Eichmann RCA's on the other end.
After a nights sleep i decided not to go ahead with that mod(not just yet anyway).I'm contemplating buying a Hercules power supply(i want 331/3//45 switching)as well as any sonic benefit it may or may not give,so i thought the rewire money would be better off going to the Hercules for now.
That still leaves me with the tonearm earthing problem,and last night i dreamed up what i think may be a solution.
The problem on the Ariston is of course compounded by the fact that the armboard is effectively an insulator.The cartridge is earthed to the tonearm,but except for the dubious method of carrying that earth through to the preamp via the phono RCA's earth,a good solid earthing of the tonearm is not there on the Ariston/RB300 combination.
I think that if i make up a shim brass washer similiar to the height adjusting washers but only a few 'thou' thick with a small lug on the side, that is a snug fit on the threaded mounting stub of the RB 300 i can solder a fine wire to the lug and then attach it to both the subchassis and the main earth on the crossbrace.
If that isnt sufficient to kill the hum and tingle,then i'm thinking i might be able to run a fine wire through the wiring bung/grommet at the base of the mounting stub and solder it to the black internal earth lead.
Since i havnt been back to pick up my arm yet i havnt been able to examine it closely to see if either plan A or plan B is actually feasible. What do you think....should it work?
I've been thinking about the difference my mods hopefully will make.
Then i thought back to what started all this,and it was a problem i was having with the earthing on my TT,and a hum from my motor(seem to have fixed the hum at least now).
When i used to prop my hand under the arm lift and touch the top plate and tonearm at the same time, i would feel a small electrical tingle. Knowing that the RB300 has an "unusual" earthing system, i embarked on this quest to resolve it. But as i realized a couple of days ago,i havnt yet done anything about it, so carried away have i become with all the other mods.So the other day i took my arm to "the shop"with a view to having them modify the earthing system. The conversation inevitably turned to replacing the tonearm wiring,which in turn led to talk of replacing the whole wire loom. Ok,i'm a sucker for a good sales pitch, I left the arm there to have the Van Den Hul wiring done right through to new Eichmann RCA's on the other end.
After a nights sleep i decided not to go ahead with that mod(not just yet anyway).I'm contemplating buying a Hercules power supply(i want 331/3//45 switching)as well as any sonic benefit it may or may not give,so i thought the rewire money would be better off going to the Hercules for now.
That still leaves me with the tonearm earthing problem,and last night i dreamed up what i think may be a solution.
The problem on the Ariston is of course compounded by the fact that the armboard is effectively an insulator.The cartridge is earthed to the tonearm,but except for the dubious method of carrying that earth through to the preamp via the phono RCA's earth,a good solid earthing of the tonearm is not there on the Ariston/RB300 combination.
I think that if i make up a shim brass washer similiar to the height adjusting washers but only a few 'thou' thick with a small lug on the side, that is a snug fit on the threaded mounting stub of the RB 300 i can solder a fine wire to the lug and then attach it to both the subchassis and the main earth on the crossbrace.
If that isnt sufficient to kill the hum and tingle,then i'm thinking i might be able to run a fine wire through the wiring bung/grommet at the base of the mounting stub and solder it to the black internal earth lead.
Since i havnt been back to pick up my arm yet i havnt been able to examine it closely to see if either plan A or plan B is actually feasible. What do you think....should it work?
Hi, Atavid,
Well if you're waiting around for the VTA and bearing....
The problem with the Rega is in three areas. First, the wiring is not the best. Second, the ground wire is combined with the left ground (If I remember correctly). Third, there are multiple solder connections from the cartridge clips to the RCA jacks.
The best solution is to rewire the arm, and provide a proper ground separate from the signal wires. By doing this, you can also reduce the solder connections to an absolute minimum.
I used the Cardas wire 4x33, to rewire the arm according to this site:
http://www.hi-fi.com/diy/rega/steps.html
I think that there were some instructions on the Origin Live site, but that may have been for their rewire kit.
You just have to be careful while you are doing this, but it is by no means rocket science. I was able to do the entire thing and retain the funky ground wire connection that Rega uses.
It is way easier than a Grace 747 that I am currently losing hair trying to re-wire
Well if you're waiting around for the VTA and bearing....
The problem with the Rega is in three areas. First, the wiring is not the best. Second, the ground wire is combined with the left ground (If I remember correctly). Third, there are multiple solder connections from the cartridge clips to the RCA jacks.
The best solution is to rewire the arm, and provide a proper ground separate from the signal wires. By doing this, you can also reduce the solder connections to an absolute minimum.
I used the Cardas wire 4x33, to rewire the arm according to this site:
http://www.hi-fi.com/diy/rega/steps.html
I think that there were some instructions on the Origin Live site, but that may have been for their rewire kit.
You just have to be careful while you are doing this, but it is by no means rocket science. I was able to do the entire thing and retain the funky ground wire connection that Rega uses.
It is way easier than a Grace 747 that I am currently losing hair trying to re-wire
Yes i know a rewire is a near must.But i dont think it will necessarily solve the problem with my TT.
The rewire, as i understand it,will add a separate earth wire alongside the left and right channel outputs,this will go to the preamp earth connection,BUT it wont add an earth wire to the chassis of the turntable. Am i wrong?
I dont know much about how electrical currents work,but it seems to me that because my 240 volt power supply is earthed to the cross brace and thence to the top plate,and the tonearm is effectively 'not earthed' to the chassis anywhere, its somehow creating some sort of broken circuit that i bridge when i touch the arm and the earthed top plate at the same time.
Now i know that earth circuits shouldn't normally carry a charge,but something is definitely going on with my setup,and yes, i've checked the integrity of all the wiring and connections.
The rewire, as i understand it,will add a separate earth wire alongside the left and right channel outputs,this will go to the preamp earth connection,BUT it wont add an earth wire to the chassis of the turntable. Am i wrong?
I dont know much about how electrical currents work,but it seems to me that because my 240 volt power supply is earthed to the cross brace and thence to the top plate,and the tonearm is effectively 'not earthed' to the chassis anywhere, its somehow creating some sort of broken circuit that i bridge when i touch the arm and the earthed top plate at the same time.
Now i know that earth circuits shouldn't normally carry a charge,but something is definitely going on with my setup,and yes, i've checked the integrity of all the wiring and connections.
atavid said:
You probably have another component in the system that is ungrounded, and what you are dealing with is the leakage current in that component.
You should identify the source of the leakage current and fix that problem - your turntable is effectively grounded, and the components connected to your tone arm are not, and when you touch both you become the unwitting ground path for that leakage current.
Yes Kevin,that sounds logical,but i cant really see what other component could be the problem.There is only the motor and while i havn't pulled it apart it all appears to be ok.The wiring to the junction strip is tight and in place(not touching anything it shouldnt etc.
I checked the earthwire from the motor mount to the cross brace and from there to the subchassis and thats ok too,so i'm stumped!
If it is the tonearm/cartridge earth not making good contact,how can i test it ??I dont at this stage want to start pulling the arm wiring apart.
I checked the earthwire from the motor mount to the cross brace and from there to the subchassis and thats ok too,so i'm stumped!
If it is the tonearm/cartridge earth not making good contact,how can i test it ??I dont at this stage want to start pulling the arm wiring apart.
atavid said:
Hi Atavid,
You totally missed my point, what I was saying was to look at other components in the system. Your amplifier or something connected to it is the culprit - your turntable and arm just provide the path for leakage current from another component which is not properly grounded or has a leakage issue that needs to be resolved. (A death cap and resistor from one side of mains to chassis was common in older Japanese hifi gear.)
There is nothing wrong with your arm wiring, although I think the overall grounding arrangement on your table is a bit odd. Did you add the 3 wire power cord or did it come that way? Usually the arm and motor board are connected to the same ground and the motor, wiring, and switch are double insulated so that a safety ground is not required. You can't directly connect the arm and motor board/chassis grounds together as currently implemented as this would cause a ground loop with components which are properly grounded for safety.
Yes,i'm sorry,i did miss your point.
I havn't considered my other components as i have recently had both the preamp and poweramp checked and upgraded.
This grounding problem existed before ,and after that work.
The only Japanese component i have in my system is a Sony 555ES CD player,but i havn't had that checked out.I will test that by simply taking it out of the system.
My preamp has a connector specifically for a turntable earth,i know the circuitry in the preamp is very touchy, as by design,it doesn't have much in the way of circuitry protection.Could be something happening there i suppose.
As for the 3 wire mains,yes it came that way from the factory ,wired, i assume, up to Australian standards with its earth connected to the cross brace in the same place as the motor earth is connected.The other end of the crossbrace has the earth from the chassis connected to it. Again, thats the way it came to me when it was brand new.
I'm thinking i should try and run an earth cable from the arm to the preamp.This doesn't seem too onerous a task since the bung at the bottom of the arm pillar is easily removed for access to the wiring.
I havn't considered my other components as i have recently had both the preamp and poweramp checked and upgraded.
This grounding problem existed before ,and after that work.
The only Japanese component i have in my system is a Sony 555ES CD player,but i havn't had that checked out.I will test that by simply taking it out of the system.
My preamp has a connector specifically for a turntable earth,i know the circuitry in the preamp is very touchy, as by design,it doesn't have much in the way of circuitry protection.Could be something happening there i suppose.
As for the 3 wire mains,yes it came that way from the factory ,wired, i assume, up to Australian standards with its earth connected to the cross brace in the same place as the motor earth is connected.The other end of the crossbrace has the earth from the chassis connected to it. Again, thats the way it came to me when it was brand new.
I'm thinking i should try and run an earth cable from the arm to the preamp.This doesn't seem too onerous a task since the bung at the bottom of the arm pillar is easily removed for access to the wiring.
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